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Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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Old 08-27-2011, 03:20 PM   #121
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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Wait, what? Cornerbacks shouldn't take gambles on picks because of cost-benefit analysis and the low probability of yielding results? Seriously?
Yeah I don't get this.
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Old 08-27-2011, 03:22 PM   #122
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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I'm I the only one that missed the part where most NFL CB's are apparently great at tackling?

95 tackles by Dhall is nothing to scoff at. I'm sure he whiffed on a few but I'm sure CB's around the league whiffed on as many if not more than he did.
No it's not. Asomugha only had 19. I wonder if that's because teams try to avoid Asomugha and game plan around him? Just saying... I love when D. Hall gets turnovers. They're game changers and they fire the team up. I think a lot of us just think he gives up a lot more plays than he needs to by trying for the big play. I'd like to see him cover a little better. Hope that's not too much to ask out of a corner. Shut your man down first...look for the TO second....not the other way around.
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Old 08-27-2011, 03:22 PM   #123
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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What I hate about this whole Hall bashing/praise argument is that people disregard the overall communication problem that exists among the defensive backs. People have such a hard on hatred for Hall, that all they see are his faults and proceed to b*tch and whine about it to the point that it takes over threads. Then you have people that proceed to argue back, making Hall sound like he's the best ever.

Our defensive backs as a group have problems and they do not begin or end with Halls flaws. For many years we've seen all of our secondary get beat deep, screw up assignments, and completely botch the zone coverage. This offseason having our starting safeties (Atogwe and Landry) and a new starting corner (Wilson) out with injury during training camp and preaseason games did not help.

I hope that Haslett, the DB coaches, and the secondary gets their act together on this overall problem. Unfortunately, this adjustment will need to happen during the regular season.
You very succinctly put the whole Hall argument into perspective. Good post.
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Old 08-27-2011, 03:46 PM   #124
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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Wait, what? Cornerbacks shouldn't take gambles on picks because of cost-benefit analysis and the low probability of yielding results? Seriously?
Yea, love that playing corner turned into playing poker
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Old 08-27-2011, 03:47 PM   #125
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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Good corners do not make 95 tackles because such a high number of tackles means that corner is giving up away too many completions and thus is not feared by QBs.

Asomugha and Revis both have a far lower amount of tackles and NOBODY would argue that they're even on par with Hall; both are better. The reason why? Testing them usually results in a play that gains 0 yards(incompletions) or worse.
They do not sacrifice coverage for a small marginal gain in INTs. Breaking 10 picks in a season is a difficult task, and converting picks into points is hardly a guaranteed matter. The point differential between a successful INT by Hall and failed attempt by Hall must be a positive value, otherwise, he's likely hurting the team. Yes, you want guys who can grab picks when the situation DOES present itself(which Stonehands could not do), at the same time, you don't want them to take too much risk and then give up points.

Hell, Hall has never had more than 6 picks in a season. Thus, AT MOST, he would fetch 42 points based on "successful" picks. Since not every pick results in points, that number is far lower. But his number of UNSUCCESSFUL picks gives the opponent points. Since he is such a habitual gambler, I believe assuming he attempts at least 16 times a season to grab those picks is not out of the question. Heck, if his failed gambles led to a field goal every time, the points he snatch for the team and the points he helped cough up would be equal.
Are wide receivers the only players on the field that get tackled? Is Hall supposed to cover every receiver on the field as well as disrupt handoffs so a rb can't run the ball?

First it was he can't tackle now it's he's giving up so many completions that he has more chances to tackle than anyone else.

D-Hall is a playmaking corner that gives up a few more than we would like to see but let's give credit where it's due. He did well when it came to tackling last year and that was one point of his game he really worked on.
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Old 08-27-2011, 03:49 PM   #126
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

Nice post Ruhskins. We've had a problem back there for years. Hopefully the play of this front 7 will help out until we get some chemistry back there. Sure wish ST was here to enjoy this lineup.
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Old 08-27-2011, 04:21 PM   #127
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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I think you're missing the point or I'm not be entirely clear. I never put Hall in Asomugha and Revis' class, I'm not crazy. I also pointed out there are a couple of ways you could read Hall having 95 tackles. I suppose you could also reason away his ints and 16 defended passes. What's not really up for debate is that Hall is one helluva playmaker. And given the talent he's been playing with for the past three seasons and changing systems, I'm pretty satisfied with his production as a Redskin. Actually I'm very satisfied with his play as a Redskin.

As far as the aforementioned corners, frankly I don't see them play every week. So I don't know how many tackles they miss, how many coverages they blow, and how many ints they drop. By the way, of the top corners in the league Charles Woodson happens to be my favorite.
This is totally separate from my criticism of Hall in the rest of the thread. And I may be the only guy who thinks this. But I think there's 20 corners in the league I'd take over Hall simply in terms of making big plays.

What he did to Flacco in the first quarter against Baltimore on Thursday was a big time defensive play. He drove on that route, had good position settled underneath, broke aggressively on the football making a great play on the ball, and then took it the distance. That's what playmakers do.

But I only get 4, maybe 5 of those plays out of Hall a season. I get twice that out of Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu and even LaRon Landry every 8 games. During Hall's best games, where he's running step for step with receivers and not giving up the big play, you rarely hear about him.

To me, Hall isn't much of a playmaker, at least how I'd define it: being consistently around the football so that good things happen. When Hall gets the ball in his hands: there's a good chance he's making a play. But between fumble recoveries and INTs, thats 5, maybe 6 times a season. And Hall is just not a "nose for the football" guy. You'll get a few INTs in any season, but how often is he amongst the league leaders in INTs?

I suppose he's pretty consistently in the top 20 NFL players in INTs, but I'm not sure thats all being a playmaker entails. Stripping Tashard Choice was a big-time play, but that was his last play on a ball carrier of the season. In the second half of last season, I don't think he made a play. Not one.

Again, this has nothing to do with my criticism of Hall's selfishness in the rest of the thread. Totally separate issue.
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Old 08-27-2011, 04:29 PM   #128
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

Okay, DeAngelo Hall is consistently in the top 10 in terms of intereceptions every year. He has six career non-offensive TDs, so he's averaging just under one per season. The defense of Hall as a player begins and ends with the fact that he scores a few points for you every season.

DeAngelo Hall NFL & AFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Point is, when you expand the definition of playmaking CB to include results outside of INTs, I just don't think he stacks up to some other elite players at his position. It's my opinion that "getting interceptions" is too rare of an event to completely define a playmaker in the secondary. Big hits matter. Stripping the ball matters. Difficult pass breakups matter. Run defense matters. Some will disagree. I think a true playmaker does most of these things.
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Old 08-27-2011, 04:39 PM   #129
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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Wow interesting break down. All the players make mistakes so why are we bashing Hall? Does he take chances? yes and apparently thats why MS and Haslett like him otherwise he would be gone. Did he screw up on the TD pass and not turn around and either intercept or atleast bat the ball away.... yes he screwed up. I'm sure after watching film he will correct the problem. and yes he was giving players a cushion. why? I don't know... maybe it's by design of the scheme in order to take away something the offense was wanting to do and force them to go shorter to an underneith route? I don't know.
Not bashing Hall, he's a Skin, I want him to do well. I've also complimented him on his play (when its deserved). I'm just pointing out the reality of who he is. He's a playmaker when opportunities present themselves, but he gives up an inordinant amount of plays that don't show up in the stat line, but do show up upon a good look at the game.

Ask yourself this, take away the 4 INT performace against Cutler & the Bears, are you willing to have 2 INT & 2 FF over 15 games vs. giving up the number of plays Hall does game-in game-out? To me it's not worth it, but we don't have a better option right now.

I'll take less spectacular plays in favor of solid coverage and sure tackling. In a nutshell, when $$$, cap, contract are no consideration, I take Carlos Rogers over Hall (I wish we could've taken the best of both and combine them into one very good CB). We are thin at CB, unfortunately Hall is the best we have. Hopefully Barnes and Wilson develop and we can get some help next off-season.
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Old 08-27-2011, 04:56 PM   #130
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

DeAngelo Hall’s Contract Might Prove To Be The End Of Carlos Rogers’ Time In Washington

Furthermore, the presence of another hefty contract is hurting Rogersí chances at landing a big payday in Washington. DeAngelo Hall is currently entering the third year of a six-year deal worth up to $55 million.

After signing an eight-year, $72 million contract in Oakland, Hall was released by the Raiders just eight games into the 2008 campaign. The Redskins inked him to a one-year deal and he managed to turn that near tryout-like stint into a big contract.

The former Virginia Tech standout has been an enigmatic player whose merits often fail to outweigh his lapses in coverage. Hall has 12 interceptions and a pair of forced fumbles in 36 games, but misses too many tackles and tends to get caught gambling. You can debate as to whether or not he is a good corner, but one thing is unquestionable in my mind: Hall was never worth the money Washington paid him after half a season of work in 2008.

Hall is a high risk, high reward player and his impact can swing the outcome of a game in either direction. Heís certainly worth having on the roster, but not at such a high price. His contract is a classic case of the Redskins overpaying for a player with a reputation for being a headcase.

Secondly, Hallís deal gives Rogers leverage in the negotiation process. If Hall can make $55 million and struggle in coverage, then why canít Rogers drop a few picks yet demand similar money?
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Old 08-27-2011, 04:58 PM   #131
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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Okay, DeAngelo Hall is consistently in the top 10 in terms of intereceptions every year. He has six career non-offensive TDs, so he's averaging just under one per season. The defense of Hall as a player begins and ends with the fact that he scores a few points for you every season.

DeAngelo Hall NFL & AFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Point is, when you expand the definition of playmaking CB to include results outside of INTs, I just don't think he stacks up to some other elite players at his position. It's my opinion that "getting interceptions" is too rare of an event to completely define a playmaker in the secondary. Big hits matter. Stripping the ball matters. Difficult pass breakups matter. Run defense matters. Some will disagree. I think a true playmaker does most of these things.
Would you care to list these 20 or so corners you have in front of Hall in terms of playmaking abilities.?
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:01 PM   #132
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

I bet he won't be with the Redskins next year, he will be asked to rework his contract. He sure isn't worth what he is being paid.
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:12 PM   #133
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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Would you care to list these 20 or so corners you have in front of Hall in terms of playmaking abilities.?
Bailey, Flowers, Revis, Asomguha, Samuel, Terrell Thomas, Tillman, Tracy Porter, Leon Hall, Joe Haden, Aqib Talib, Brent Grimes, Tramon Williams, Charles Woodson, Vontae Davis, and I'm really a fan of most facets of Quentin Jammer's game, ball skills included. That was 16 guys off the top of my head. I left off some guys who simply don't have Hall's relatively strong bill of health, but make plays when they get on the field. Hall looks better if you age regress: Woodson and Bailey are getting long in the tooth, and might not enjoy a Darren Sharper-like end of career.

It's not a complete list of corners I would rather have than Hall, guys like Ike Taylor, Carlos Rogers, Sean Smith, Sheldon Brown, Jonathon Joseph, Chris Carr, Jerraud Powers, Antoine Cason, Ron Bartell, Ronde Barber, Antonio Cromartie, and the like. Those are good cover guys who I don't really consider playmakers.

Forgot: Antoine Winfield. Great cover corner, excellent ball skills.
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:23 PM   #134
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

UPDATED: Finally had a chance to review the game. Hopefully this is a preview of a weekly SS33 Game Review.

OL - Huge improvement from last year. Familiarity with the ZB scheme is helping the guys from last year. I finally saw an important component of the ZB scheme that was missing last year.....the cut blocks. On the Hightower TD, the cut from KL took down two Ravens and opened the cutback lane. I specifically saw good two good cuts by TW and another by KL. Didn't notice any from Brown/Chester, but hope they're coming.

Monty at C, without bashing ol' turnstile Rabach for a paragraph, let's just say Monty is a huge upgrade at C. The only bad play from him was a mis-communication between him and Chester that allowed the DT to shoot the A gap and blow up a run. Monty went 2nd level too early and Chester couldn't reach the DT.

Pass-pro is much improved. Not seeing the OL getting beaten with a 4 or 5 man rush. The OL is getting at worst a stalemate in pass-pro, which is a win and big improvement from last year where our OL were not only doing a poor job of blitz pick-up, but were losing individual battles.

Blitz Pick-up - An area that needs work, but with new players at C, RG, RB and TE this should improve and is an area that can be "coached up". TW has to get better at reading overload C-gap pressure and stay home rather than get sucked down to the B gap. Brown and Chester need to improve communication in passing the rushers between them. The blitz pick-up appears to be more of an issue on Brown's side. Hopefully by game 4-5 Brown, Chester and the backs/Davis will have settled in.

Davis is much improved in blocking and appears to be taking pride in this effort here. He still has work to do in blitz pick-up, but the run blocking appears to be coming along well and he's showing "want-to".

Hightower looks to be a great fit, excellent cut in the open field on the TD, also excellent explosion and "second gear" which we haven't had in our backfield in quite some time. He did well in pass-pro, another good "want to" showing.

Austin has earned a roster spot. Sure hands, making plays, appears to have a good grasp on his responsibilities.

Our O faced the Ravens 1st team D and played well, I wouldn't say "dominated" but they did win the battle up front and displayed a very good effort all around.

DL - Very pleased here. Cofield is showing why he was the most improtant off-season acquisition. He holds his ground in the run game and creates pressure in the pass game. The base 3-4 rush and 4-man front are getting pressure without needing blitz support....huge improvement from last year. I really like the even front with Rak and Kerrigan off the edges and Cofield and possibly Carriker/Bowen/Scott (JJ loss is awful, overall we'll be fine but he was a pleasant surprise).

Not real happy with Bowen's pre-snap stance (I get in a similar stance in the early AM), but he's doing his job so far.

I think Scott earned himself a roster spot with his versatility and effort. He created good pressure in pass rush and held up well in the run game overall.

Defensive Secondary: We've discussed Hall in other posts so I won't repeat.

Rushkins made a great post on this earlier. We are going to be hurt by not having OJA and LL on the field together in camp and pre-season. There were two specific plays where OJA was completely lost/out of position. The one that hurt most was the Boldin cross. OJA gets sucked out of his zone by the post and Boldin comes underneath into his vacated zone for a big play. I initially thought Hall got sucked up on a flat route, but a closer look showed a Cover 3 Zone deep and OJA was the culprit. Also, our youngsters didn't play particularly well, Gomes and Jones didn't help their cause.

Rak looked very good, Kerrigan too. Not worried about the penalties on 91, they're effort penalties and will be corrected. I'd like to see Neild make the team, he's doing a good job holding his ground and taking up space in the run game. He got a good push in pass rush, but I don't think he'll ever be considered a sack threat.

I liked the playcalls by Haslett. Good mix on D, different looks, coverages, blitzes.

I think Locklear, Golston, and Clemens can be cut.

And finally.....Beck vs. Rex. Beck has a better grasp of the O. He's making the correct reads and quick/accurate throws. The deep INT appeared to be a miscommunication between him and Stallworth that will be corrected once the final 53 is determined and they get familiar with each other. Beck led him in, Stallworth was looking out. If in doubt, throw it out(side) should be the rule of thumb....less chance for INT. Or Beck just made a $hitty throw....but I think it was the former.

Rex is still the same guy, great throws in stretches, but too many poor throws/reads that will kill drives and lose games. Before the TD, Smith should've picked him on a VERY poor throw. That being said Moss dropped a TD right before that. Rex also doesn't identify the blitz and coverage quite as quickly as Beck does.

SS, 12th, 53, thanks for the kind words. Any reviews I do are Warpath Exclusives I'll do my best to keep them up every week.
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:26 PM   #135
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Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

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Bailey, Flowers, Revis, Asomguha, Samuel, Terrell Thomas, Tillman, Tracy Porter, Leon Hall, Joe Haden, Aqib Talib, Brent Grimes, Tramon Williams, Charles Woodson, Vontae Davis, and I'm really a fan of most facets of Quentin Jammer's game, ball skills included. That was 16 guys off the top of my head. I left off some guys who simply don't have Hall's relatively strong bill of health, but make plays when they get on the field. Hall looks better if you age regress: Woodson and Bailey are getting long in the tooth, and might not enjoy a Darren Sharper-like end of career.

It's not a complete list of corners I would rather have than Hall, guys like Ike Taylor, Carlos Rogers, Sean Smith, Sheldon Brown, Jonathon Joseph, Chris Carr, Jerraud Powers, Antoine Cason, Ron Bartell, Ronde Barber, Antonio Cromartie, and the like. Those are good cover guys who I don't really consider playmakers.

Forgot: Antoine Winfield. Great cover corner, excellent ball skills.
I see that list as more like 10 guys at the level of DHall plus 6 that are admittedly better.
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