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Old 09-21-2011, 06:50 PM   #16
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

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Originally Posted by Mattyk View Post
If he would have kept his head up and just hit him with his shoulder, perhaps there's a still a penalty, but I would bet there wouldn't have been a fine.

It's simple, see what you hit. Lowering your head is a guaranteed flag and fine. Just the way things are now.

What FRPLG is saying is that if he had his head up he would have made a helmet to helmet hit, which is illegal. I completely agree with FRPLG and also think that a helmet to helmet hit would be considered "worse" in the sense it would draw a larger fine. Honestly i dont think there was anything he could of done that would have stopped the receiver at or in the immediate area of the point of contact without being fined.

Does anyone know the rule around "leading with your head"? Is that actually anywhere in the rule book? I always thought leading with your head applied to helmet to helmet stuff.

While Robinson's helmet did grace Maclin's facemask the hit came from Robinson's shoulder to Maclin's arm/shoulder. And the rule he was fined under is the defenseless receiver rule, nothing around leading with his head. So even if he had his head up and somehow managed to not hit Maclin's helmet he would have been flagged and fined under the defenseless receiver rule.

I think he is guilty of the defenseless receiver rule, but as I stated above that rule is completely bs. If you dont want defenseless receivers to get hit hard make zone coverage’s illegal or have a offsetting penalty on QB's for leading the receiver into an unavoidable hit. If its a penalty on the QB then DB's will know they can completely let up and it wont matter because the pass is going to be called back, and if the DB goes through with the hit then fine him. Its not just the safety of the receiver, the defender often gets seriously hurt too.
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:14 PM   #17
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

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He could have kept his head up and still hit him square in the face-mask with his face-mask. I am not sure what keeping his head up would have done to avoid the helmet to helmet hit. Putting his face forward wouldn't change the positioning of his head in general just what part of his head he hit him with. He lowered his shoulder and ducked his head and gets flagged for what? Getting his body into the proper position to make a good tackle? Seems crappy to me. It's unfortunate that Maclin got hit in the head but it was also unavoidable outside of completely changing the tackle positioning which presented competitive risk. The rule simply can't be so black and white... well I guess it can but it looks stupid and causes a load of other competitive issues that apparently the NFL doesn't really care about. They only care about perception of safety for some reason right now.
did you ever happen to play football? i only played a few years i highschool but the number one thing you are alway taught is to see what you hit, and thats not so you don't hurt the player you are hitting but so you don't hurt yourself. ducking your head down is not the proper way to tackle and it's not safe for either the receiver or the defender, it's a very easy was to get seriously injured
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:40 PM   #18
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

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Originally Posted by mlmpetert View Post
What FRPLG is saying is that if he had his head up he would have made a helmet to helmet hit, which is illegal. I completely agree with FRPLG and also think that a helmet to helmet hit would be considered "worse" in the sense it would draw a larger fine. Honestly i dont think there was anything he could of done that would have stopped the receiver at or in the immediate area of the point of contact without being fined.

Does anyone know the rule around "leading with your head"? Is that actually anywhere in the rule book? I always thought leading with your head applied to helmet to helmet stuff.

While Robinson's helmet did grace Maclin's facemask the hit came from Robinson's shoulder to Maclin's arm/shoulder. And the rule he was fined under is the defenseless receiver rule, nothing around leading with his head. So even if he had his head up and somehow managed to not hit Maclin's helmet he would have been flagged and fined under the defenseless receiver rule.

I think he is guilty of the defenseless receiver rule, but as I stated above that rule is completely bs. If you dont want defenseless receivers to get hit hard make zone coverage’s illegal or have a offsetting penalty on QB's for leading the receiver into an unavoidable hit. If its a penalty on the QB then DB's will know they can completely let up and it wont matter because the pass is going to be called back, and if the DB goes through with the hit then fine him. Its not just the safety of the receiver, the defender often gets seriously hurt too.

I guess next is the defenseless returner rule. We've all seen guys get layed out at the point of reception or just after because they failed to call fair catch by defenders running full speed leading with the helmet. No fines given.

Notice Collinsworth seems to have no problem with it. Only when a receiver gets hit does he whine. No Fines, No FLags

Flag but no Fines given. And it was not because of leading with his head. It was because he didnt give the returner a chance to catch the ball.

Why no Fines? What's the difference?

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Old 09-21-2011, 08:09 PM   #19
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

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did you ever happen to play football? i only played a few years i highschool but the number one thing you are alway taught is to see what you hit, and thats not so you don't hurt the player you are hitting but so you don't hurt yourself. ducking your head down is not the proper way to tackle and it's not safe for either the receiver or the defender, it's a very easy was to get seriously injured
Well now their teaching NFL players to avoid helmet to helmet hits at all costs. So Robinson put his head down likely in a attempt to avoid the helmet to helmet hit, and could have seriously hurt himself.

Honestly i think the only way to avoid these hits is to make it a penalty for the qb to lead a receiver into a defenseless hit. Or make zone coverage illegal, however; getting ride of zone coverage would drastically alter the game.
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:21 PM   #20
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

Personally I'm so sick of all these stupid ass 15 yard personal fouls. It's just gotten way out of hand. I understand leading with your helmet. Fine. But what the league can't understand is the difference between intent and an accident. The Robinson hit was borderline. He lowered his head so I can stomach that one. But there was a shitty call against a defensive player on a QB where he was losing his balance and tackled the QB low. 15 yards. So stupid. What's the defender suppose to do? Stop his fall and try and avoid the QB's knee? It's ridiculous cause there was no intent there.
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:31 PM   #21
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

Inconsistent league is inconsistent.
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Old 09-21-2011, 10:02 PM   #22
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

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Inconsistent league is inconsistent.
I agree completely. helmet to helmet happens every single play. I would say on almost every single tackle there is helmet to helmet contact. I do however agree that when a player blatently leads with his head like a bullet and spears a player in the head, that should be a penalty and fine. However if you watch on almost all tackles helmet to helmet occurs. I feel like penalties and fines are given especialy when a guy gets hurt or a big hit occurs even if it wasnt a spearing hit! When a player hits with his shoulder, most likely the players are going to hit heads also. Some of the penalties and fines are being given for hits that are undeserving and just big hits. These penalties change games.

And what is this about a defenseless receiver? i do not understand. If a defensive back or linebacker gets to where he is suppose to be right when the ball does, he cant hit him? Give me a break, does the league just want defenders to allow receivers to catch balls? When a ballcarrier has the ball they get low to brace for contact, and so does a defender to make a tackle. Helmet to helmet will naturally happen! Is the defender just suppose to take it in the chest and get ran over?
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Old 09-21-2011, 10:36 PM   #23
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

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did you ever happen to play football? i only played a few years i highschool but the number one thing you are alway taught is to see what you hit, and thats not so you don't hurt the player you are hitting but so you don't hurt yourself. ducking your head down is not the proper way to tackle and it's not safe for either the receiver or the defender, it's a very easy was to get seriously injured
I don't believe for one second him having his head up would have been less dangerous compared to the actual hit that occurred. I do understand the concept in general that keeping your head up properly gives you the best chance to avoid danger and it limits the downward force on your own neck but in this case the head being down didn't actually do much of anything so it's a moot point as it relates to this specific hit.

And if we're talking on about brass tax and whether it was a) illegal by rule...it was and b) deserving of a fine...not sure. But ultimately I thought we were talking about what we thought of it opinion wise. My opinion is that the defenseless WR rule is mostly crap and unabashedly impossible to enforce consistently while the league office has its head in the clouds on this stuff.

Throwing a lead pass into the middle of the field where two guys are running 15 MPH at each other is straight up dangerous. The league should be looking at how to eliminate the cause not the symptom. Frankly asking players to both evaluate the potential physics and adjust without risking competitive disadvantage is ridiculous. If the league wants to protect players then outlaw tackling. Seriously. Otherwise one of the whole points of the game is the physical encounters that they are increasingly trying to eliminate.
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Old 09-21-2011, 10:50 PM   #24
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

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I don't believe for one second him having his head up would have been less dangerous compared to the actual hit that occurred. I do understand the concept in general that keeping your head up properly gives you the best chance to avoid danger and it limits the downward force on your own neck but in this case the head being down didn't actually do much of anything so it's a moot point as it relates to this specific hit.

And if we're talking on about brass tax and whether it was a) illegal by rule...it was and b) deserving of a fine...not sure. But ultimately I thought we were talking about what we thought of it opinion wise. My opinion is that the defenseless WR rule is mostly crap and unabashedly impossible to enforce consistently while the league office has its head in the clouds on this stuff.

Throwing a lead pass into the middle of the field where two guys are running 15 MPH at each other is straight up dangerous. The league should be looking at how to eliminate the cause not the symptom. Frankly asking players to both evaluate the potential physics and adjust without risking competitive disadvantage is ridiculous. If the league wants to protect players then outlaw tackling. Seriously. Otherwise one of the whole points of the game is the physical encounters that they are increasingly trying to eliminate.
Extremely well said!
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Old 09-21-2011, 10:55 PM   #25
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

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I guess next is the defenseless returner rule. We've all seen guys get layed out at the point of reception or just after because they failed to call fair catch by defenders running full speed leading with the helmet. No fines given.

Notice Collinsworth seems to have no problem with it. Only when a receiver gets hit does he whine. Kyle Nelson's BIG hit on Denarius Moore ---- NFL Pre-Season - YouTubeNo Fines, No FLags

Adrian Maddbacker Ross big hit on Dennis Northcutt - YouTubeFlag but no Fines given. And it was not because of leading with his head. It was because he didnt give the returner a chance to catch the ball.

Why no Fines? What's the difference?
Just watched both those vids.... Wow perfect hits. But yeah they were both defenseless.
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Old 09-21-2011, 10:56 PM   #26
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

Derrick Morgan fined $7,500, tells NFL: I can’t stop in mid-air | ProFootballTalk

I cant find the video. Did anyone see it? Was it dirty or fine worthy?
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Old 09-21-2011, 11:25 PM   #27
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

"leading with your helmet" was called spearing when I played and was a 15 yard penalty. I am pretty sure it is a 15 yarder in the NFL
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Old 09-21-2011, 11:26 PM   #28
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

NFL Rules Digest: Summary of Penalties search spear or just look under the 15 yard area.
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:18 AM   #29
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

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"leading with your helmet" was called spearing when I played and was a 15 yard penalty. I am pretty sure it is a 15 yarder in the NFL
What if you led with your shoulder but your head got there first? On most people the head comes before the shoulder. Only Merton Hanks with his gigantically long neck could move his head far enough away from his shoulder to ever really not hit with part of his head first. I am pretty sure spearing meant you specifically used the top of your head as the lead point of force. That is not at all what Robinson did.
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:25 AM   #30
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Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules

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If he would have kept his head up and just hit him with his shoulder, perhaps there's a still a penalty, but I would bet there wouldn't have been a fine.

It's simple, see what you hit. Lowering your head is a guaranteed flag and fine. Just the way things are now.
And it is all statistics. When your head is lowered you are more likely to injure someone. I side with the NFL on all this. The game is too fast and players are too strong. We see what some of the NFL vets have had to go through and its a shame. Any rule that benefits the NFL Players' health, I support, even if it fundamentally changes the game I love.
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