Surprise Switch- Grossman will Start vs Phins; Beck to the Bench

GMScud · 11-13-2011, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

You want to lose some money with a certainty. Or do you choose to take a riskier action that has a small chance of major compensation, but usually results in worse outcomes. In football, you have to take the latter option. The scheme demands the QB to be able to complete certain throws, and JC has not shown any consistency on many routes on the route tree.

Understand that utility(defined as "happiness" or "satisfaction" ) from wins do not carry over to the next season. Every time a new season starts, the team gets a fresh, clean slate to write on. The fans level of happiness will be dicataed by discrete results: none if there are 7 or less wins, ambivalence with 8-8 or 9-7 if no playoffs, pretty happy if they make the playoffs, and outright exuberence if the win the Super Bowl. With Jason Campbell, it's practically a lock that he's a 7-9 or worse quarterback. I don't blame them from dumping him and trying to find some replacement. It is not ok they didn't find a good replacement, but they were correct in their assessment that Campbell had to go.

My goodness you preach from the pulpit.

Who cares about the fans level of satisfaction? The coaches sure don't, that's for sure. "Discrete results," "utility," ummmm, what the heck are you even talking about?

The point is, hindsight being what it is, Campbell would have given us just as good, if not better results than the three stooges that have started since.

Arguably the biggest fallacy of this franchise during Snyder's tenure is shipping away draft picks/spending huge $ for past their prime big name vets. And that's just how Shanny kicked off his era in DC, and it was a massive failure. Would it have been so bad to keep a guy who knows the team and the organization and would cost nothing in picks or drama to keep in the fold?

SirClintonPortis · 11-13-2011, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMScud

My goodness you preach from the pulpit.

Who cares about the fans level of satisfaction? The coaches sure don't, that's for sure. "Discrete results," "utility," ummmm, what the heck are you even talking about?

The point is, hindsight being what it is, Campbell would have given us just as good, if not better results than the three stooges that have started since.

Arguably the biggest fallacy of this franchise during Snyder's tenure is shipping away draft picks/spending huge $ for past their prime big name vets. And that's just how Shanny kicked off his era in DC, and it was a massive failure. Would it have been so bad to keep a guy who knows the team and the organization and would cost nothing in picks or drama to keep in the fold?

I wonder why I even bother trying to use simple concepts that simpletons refuse to try to understand. Someone here already went into an emotional turtle shell because of the superiority of intuition over any systemic evaluation on players. Utility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shanahan could have traded away Campbell without having to grab McNabb. Since Campbell was in a contract year, it would be better than letting him walk for nothing or re-signing a QB whose stock was only going down. Jason Campbell was deemed insufficient to pilot this offense, and they got whatever little value he had left.

SmootSmack · 11-13-2011, 02:48 PM

Not getting any young QB to develop to me has been the bigger problem. They could have had McNabb and added a young QB. I expect/hope that will be resolved soon.

I expected Beck to maybe not finish this game. Kind of thought the same last week. But I was a bit surprised he didn't even start.

One of my colleagues said after seeing the game tape of last week's game. "If I were the agent for any WR on the Redskins i would demand a trade. Wasted talent with Beck there"

So I went back on Friday and watched the game again. Granted it wasn't the All 22 film, but yeah Beck is awful. Really awful. Which is why it still frustrates me that Rex didn't do a better job of leaving no doubt he should start.

Of course, long term neither is the answer.

vallin21 · 11-13-2011, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Sir Clinton: You are absolutely correct in your statement that Jason Campbell had to go once Mike Shanahan was hired. There are two main reasons for that:

1. Cambell is not a great fit in a west-coast-like offense. That is not the best match to his abilities.

2. Shanahan comes with the reputation as a QB guru and the only way to maintain that reputation was to get a QB who can perform in his system - - translation: not Jason Campbell.

Here is the problem. Once the decision was made to "ditch Campbell" it became mandatory to replace him with someone better suited to the offense who would flourish in the offense.

That led to the McNabb trade; that did not work. I happen to agree with Brian Mitchell and with Tony McGee who answered questions for the Warpath last year and both said that of the 3 QBs on last year's roster, McNabb had the best chance of succeeding in this offense. But that was not going to happen after the way the 2010 season ended and so McNabb had to go too.

Now comes the damning part. The Skins were left with Rex and Becks; the coaches had seen both of them for a year in THIS system - - and Kyle saw Rex in the Houston version of this system for a couple years before that. That leaves two possibilities:

A. They thought one of these guys was good enough to make this system work. [WRONG!]

B. They needed to go and find a free-agent who could make the system work somewhat better than these guys - - and they came up with Kellen Clemens? What, Vinny Testaverde would not answer their calls?

The huge failure here is that even though Mike Shanahan was correct in trading Jason Campbell, he has been HORRIBLY DEFICIENT in finding someone who is as good as Campbell - - let alone better than Campbell.

Well Said... Agree 100%

I had no issue with trading JC; but the problem was we replaced him with two extremely god-awful NFL QB's; 1 being a bad backup (Rex); and 1 who thinks he's better than his play indicates, and IMO shouldn't be wearing an NFL jersey (Beck).

GMScud · 11-13-2011, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

I wonder why I even bother trying to use simple concepts that simpletons refuse to try to understand. Someone here already went into an emotional turtle shell because of the superiority of intuition over any systemic evaluation on players. Utility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shanahan could have traded away Campbell without having to grab McNabb. Since Campbell was in a contract year, it would be better than letting him walk for nothing or re-signing a QB whose stock was only going down. Jason Campbell was deemed insufficient to pilot this offense, and they got whatever little value he had left.

Your arrogance is pathetic. Unlike you, I don't need to use big words on a message board and brag about my intelligence to feel good about myself. Because if I did, I'd be the simpleton. Sad.

skinsfaninok · 11-13-2011, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMScud

Your arrogance is pathetic. Unlike you, I don't need to use big words on a message board and brag about my intelligence to feel good about myself. Because if I did, I'd be the simpleton. Sad.

wow.

SirClintonPortis · 11-13-2011, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMScud

Your arrogance is pathetic. Unlike you, I don't need to use big words on a message board and brag about my intelligence to feel good about myself. Because if I did, I'd be the simpleton. Sad.

I don't use "big words" for the sake of using them nor do I give a crap about feeling good in such a manner. I simply try to apply certain concepts I learned. That is all. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in fleshing out the concepts. Fine, that's on me to rectify.

SmootSmack · 11-13-2011, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

I don't use "big words" for the sake of using them nor do I give a crap about feeling good in such a manner. I simply try to apply certain concepts I learned. That is all. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in fleshing out the concepts. Fine, that's on me to rectify.

You could have just said you agree with the decision not let Campbell go, yet they failed to find a replacement. Yet you use terms like "utility" that no one uses in everyday conversation the way you did, and you consistently come across as arrogant and as if we're all beneath you.

GMScud · 11-13-2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

I don't use "big words" for the sake of using them nor do I give a crap about feeling good in such a manner. I simply try to apply certain concepts I learned. That is all. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in fleshing out the concepts. Fine, that's on me to rectify.

It's not the points you make, it's the manner in which you attempt to make them. Grates on the nerves, and I'm not the only one who feels that way. Just an FYI. I'm sure you don't care, though.

SkinzWin · 11-13-2011, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Sir Clinton: You are absolutely correct in your statement that Jason Campbell had to go once Mike Shanahan was hired. There are two main reasons for that:

1. Cambell is not a great fit in a west-coast-like offense. That is not the best match to his abilities.

2. Shanahan comes with the reputation as a QB guru and the only way to maintain that reputation was to get a QB who can perform in his system - - translation: not Jason Campbell.

Here is the problem. Once the decision was made to "ditch Campbell" it became mandatory to replace him with someone better suited to the offense who would flourish in the offense.

That led to the McNabb trade; that did not work. I happen to agree with Brian Mitchell and with Tony McGee who answered questions for the Warpath last year and both said that of the 3 QBs on last year's roster, McNabb had the best chance of succeeding in this offense. But that was not going to happen after the way the 2010 season ended and so McNabb had to go too.

Now comes the damning part. The Skins were left with Rex and Becks; the coaches had seen both of them for a year in THIS system - - and Kyle saw Rex in the Houston version of this system for a couple years before that. That leaves two possibilities:

A. They thought one of these guys was good enough to make this system work. [WRONG!]

B. They needed to go and find a free-agent who could make the system work somewhat better than these guys - - and they came up with Kellen Clemens? What, Vinny Testaverde would not answer their calls?

The huge failure here is that even though Mike Shanahan was correct in trading Jason Campbell, he has been HORRIBLY DEFICIENT in finding someone who is as good as Campbell - - let alone better than Campbell.

I disagree with this. Campbell had a long enough tenure here without much proliferation or great successes that I think it was necessary to trade him. We GOT a 4th round pick. Not gave UP a pick like we used to. The issues created on this team by Snyder/Cerrato's control for years has left great deficiencies in many areas and could not be all corrected at once.

I for one do not think Shanny is perfect. I know he has made mistakes. But everyone does at some point. However, he can't fix this team in one shot and fans that scream and complain about what Shanny has done are stupid. Here's what he has done:

1. Stop signing large numbers of high-priced, over-aged FA's
2. Traded down in the draft to pick up more picks to inject youth into the team.
3. Traded for Carriker, giving away virtually nothing.
4. Traded for Hightower giving away virtually nothing.
5. Sign Barry Coefield, not an Albert Haynesworth type player.
6. Sign Sav Rocca, not an old, journeyman punter.

My point is this. Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't get every position fixed in one year with as many problems as we have. He didn't like the QB options in the draft and there were not many viable options in FA. Just because we didn't have a franchise QB draftee or FA pick-up doesn't mean we still shouldn't have gotten rid of Campbell. We still got better in other areas. All you negative people act pissed like we were one player away, supposed to win out this year, and be a contender. We have a long way to go and have an opportunity to draft a solid QB this year.

Let the team develop and get better instead of acting like everything should have been fixed already.

over the mountain · 11-13-2011, 05:28 PM

i think its pretty clear not many fans thought campbell was going to win games for us but i think its pretty clear campbell would have been better than beck and rex whom shanahan brought in to replace him, thats kinda beyond argument i think, idk.

(i still think mcnabb wasnt all that bad, not 2nd and 4th worthy thoo . . .)

SirClintonPortis · 11-13-2011, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMScud

It's not the points you make, it's the manner in which you attempt to make them. Grates on the nerves, and I'm not the only one who feels that way. Just an FYI. I'm sure you don't care, though.

Admittedly, I do hold people to a unrealistic standard of understanding it on the first go(maybe because understanding some things come rather quickly for myself), and then I get frustrated and treat them poorly. I can't guarantee a complete 180 from that, but I'll make a concerted effort to get my point across better and not be such an ass to talk to.

SkinzWin · 11-13-2011, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

Admittedly, I do hold people to a unrealistic standard of understanding it on the first go(maybe because understanding some things come rather quickly for myself), and then I get frustrated and treat them poorly. I can't guarantee a complete 180 from that, but I'll make a concerted effort to get my point across better and not be such an ass to talk to.

Sporting of you old chap. Pip Pip!!

GMScud · 11-13-2011, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

Admittedly, I do hold people to a unrealistic standard of understanding it on the first go(maybe because understanding some things come rather quickly for myself), and then I get frustrated and treat them poorly. I can't guarantee a complete 180 from that, but I'll make a concerted effort to get my point across better and not be such an ass to talk to.

If you want to deliver on the second point in bold, then try to refrain from making statements like the first one in bold.

over the mountain · 11-13-2011, 06:01 PM

edit - alot of posters on here make close to if not more than 6 figures, have college and post graduate degrees, wives, kids, mortgages, 401ks etc . . . lol wish we were 20 and back in college.

11-13-2011, 02:48 PM	#33
SmootSmack The Bluths Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 43,105	Not getting any young QB to develop to me has been the bigger problem. They could have had McNabb and added a young QB. I expect/hope that will be resolved soon. I expected Beck to maybe not finish this game. Kind of thought the same last week. But I was a bit surprised he didn't even start. One of my colleagues said after seeing the game tape of last week's game. "If I were the agent for any WR on the Redskins i would demand a trade. Wasted talent with Beck there" So I went back on Friday and watched the game again. Granted it wasn't the All 22 film, but yeah Beck is awful. Really awful. Which is why it still frustrates me that Rex didn't do a better job of leaving no doubt he should start. Of course, long term neither is the answer. __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

11-13-2011, 05:28 PM	#41
over the mountain Playmaker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: baltimore Posts: 2,672	Re: Surprise Switch- Grossman will Start vs Phins; Beck to the Bench i think its pretty clear not many fans thought campbell was going to win games for us but i think its pretty clear campbell would have been better than beck and rex whom shanahan brought in to replace him, thats kinda beyond argument i think, idk. (i still think mcnabb wasnt all that bad, not 2nd and 4th worthy thoo . . .) __________________ Fails to lock onto the defender, at times, preferring to violently shove his target to the ground and look for others.

11-13-2011, 06:01 PM	#45
over the mountain Playmaker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: baltimore Posts: 2,672	Re: Surprise Switch- Grossman will Start vs Phins; Beck to the Bench edit - alot of posters on here make close to if not more than 6 figures, have college and post graduate degrees, wives, kids, mortgages, 401ks etc . . . lol wish we were 20 and back in college. __________________ Fails to lock onto the defender, at times, preferring to violently shove his target to the ground and look for others. Last edited by over the mountain; 11-13-2011 at 06:31 PM.

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Surprise Switch- Grossman will Start vs Phins; Beck to the Bench

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