Mike Shanahan

SkinzWin · 01-01-2012, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Of course he came with a plan to win. He just didn't come with the intention of a short term fix. If we all wanted another Spags, Morriss, Haley fine. But I'm pretty sure we all wanted/want success over time. Not just one year and done.

And clinging to the 2009 defense is absurd in my opinion. Changes had to be made. Unless we wanted to hold on to the likes of Griffin, Montgomery, Wynn, Daniels (and more) just a little too long.

Agreed. With the age of that defense the only way we were going was down anyway. I guarantee you if we had left that group in tact, 2010 would have put us over the cap because we would had to have signed medical equipment supply companies to huge companies with big cash guarantees to make sure we had enough walkers, canes, and Hoverrounds....

The Goat · 01-01-2012, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Of course he came with a plan to win. He just didn't come with the intention of a short term fix. If we all wanted another Spags, Morriss, Haley fine. But I'm pretty sure we all wanted/want success over time. Not just one year and done.

And clinging to the 2009 defense is absurd in my opinion. Changes had to be made. Unless we wanted to hold on to the likes of Griffin, Montgomery, Wynn, Daniels (and more) just a little too long.

Certainly we needed to replace these guys, but that's a far cry from blowing up the defense and it utterly ignores the several other players of talent we had in that system. Carter, Zoe, AH and others would have continued to fortify the D line and then we added Rak, who would probably be well suited as a LDE in the 4-3.

...and yes I would take that defense over the one we have today. What we have today is woefully inconsistent and seemingly unable to be effective against several of the offenses we face every year, especially Dallas and Philly.

The Goat · 01-01-2012, 07:08 PM

I'm honestly shocked at the excuses made for Shanahan and his myriad mistakes over the last two seasons. Even if the roster today is somehow better than what he inherited, which I think is debatable but I'll accept it just for the sake of pragmatism, HE makes this a worse team than the one he inherited. By way of poor talent evaluation, especially at QB, poor time management, poor organizaing, poor decision-making with respect to muddying the team's issues with his family issues, and generally poor coaching overall. I just don't see whatever you all are seeing that evidently points to better times under Mike Shanahan.

SkinzWin · 01-01-2012, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Goat

I'm honestly shocked at the excuses made for Shanahan and his myriad mistakes over the last two seasons. Even if the roster today is somehow better than what he inherited, which I think is debatable but I'll accept it just for the sake of pragmatism, HE makes this a worse team than the one he inherited. By way of poor talent evaluation, especially at QB, poor time management, poor organizaing, poor decision-making with respect to muddying the team's issues with his family issues, and generally poor coaching overall. I just don't see whatever you all are seeing that evidently points to better times under Mike Shanahan.

Muddying the team's issues with his family issues? Care to explain?

How about trading down in the draft for once and gaining draft picks and youth, instead of giving them away for overpriced FA's who are at the end of their careers? We have substantially cut the age of the roster. With as many problems as Cerrato left in his wake do you really expect us to turn everything around on a dime?

Was Kerrigan a mistake? No. Would Jarvis Jenkins have been a mistake if he hadn't been lost for the season? NO. Were Helu and Roster mistakes? Doesn't look like it. Your sake of pragmatism seems flawed to me.

I'm not saying he is the best coach ever, and yes he has made some bad personnel moves, ala McNabb, but for you do say "HE makes this a worse team than the one he inherited" is asinine.

htownskinfan · 01-01-2012, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Goat

I'm honestly shocked at the excuses made for Shanahan and his myriad mistakes over the last two seasons. Even if the roster today is somehow better than what he inherited, which I think is debatable but I'll accept it just for the sake of pragmatism, HE makes this a worse team than the one he inherited. By way of poor talent evaluation, especially at QB, poor time management, poor organizaing, poor decision-making with respect to muddying the team's issues with his family issues, and generally poor coaching overall. I just don't see whatever you all are seeing that evidently points to better times under Mike Shanahan.

I'm with you,I don't see it either.And the argument the defense needed to be blown up anyway I don't agree with either
I haven't got to see the last 2 games because they weren't on here.But I here for the 2nd week in a row shanny challenged a play that was clearly not going to be overturned
Because we suck so bad it's not a big deal now but little screwups like that coupled with other bad coaching add up to cost u games and playoffs when it counts

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Goat · 01-01-2012, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkinzWin

Muddying the team's issues with his family issues? Care to explain?

How about trading down in the draft for once and gaining draft picks and youth, instead of giving them away for overpriced FA's who are at the end of their careers? We have substantially cut the age of the roster. With as many problems as Cerrato left in his wake do you really expect us to turn everything around on a dime?

Was Kerrigan a mistake? No. Would Jarvis Jenkins have been a mistake if he hadn't been lost for the season? NO. Were Helu and Roster mistakes? Doesn't look like it. Your sake of pragmatism seems flawed to me.

I'm not saying he is the best coach ever, and yes he has made some bad personnel moves, ala McNabb, but for you do say "HE makes this a worse team than the one he inherited" is asinine.

Bringing in his son to coach alongside him was stupid. Kyle was mostly unproven and two seasons of piss-poor offense here substantiate it. Also the fact Houstan improved after Kyle left. Now we're stuck w/ team Shanny.

Mike is hardly the first coach/GM here to trade down and acquire more picks.

If McNabb is the only personnel mistake you see...I don't know why I'm responding to you. Nevermind.

SolidSnake84 · 01-01-2012, 07:27 PM

I don't think Shanahan has done a GREAT job. I think he has done a better job than anyone before him in the sense that he is trying to build a young core group of players who can be dominate for years to come. I think in all fairness he needs to be given one more year to see for sure. This team, as it stands right now, may best case scenario go 8 and 8 next year. We are lacking a franchise QB, and i think that right there makes any other personnell moves null and void until we find him.

One more year for Shanahan with a real QB before we can judge. If we get a QB we could be 10 and 6 or better....

Beemnseven · 01-01-2012, 08:11 PM

Statistically speaking, the '09 defense was top ten. But that was deceiving. And yardage doesn't tell the whole story. That team couldn't stop anyone when it absolutely had to. It couldn't get consistent pressure on the quarterback and it couldn't get turnovers.

For years this team hung on to players one year too long. In the end, Shanahan probably handled that precisely the right way.

SkinzWin · 01-01-2012, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Goat

Bringing in his son to coach alongside him was stupid. Kyle was mostly unproven and two seasons of piss-poor offense here substantiate it. Also the fact Houstan improved after Kyle left. Now we're stuck w/ team Shanny.

Mike is hardly the first coach/GM here to trade down and acquire more picks.

If McNabb is the only personnel mistake you see...I don't know why I'm responding to you. Nevermind.

Houston Texans Offensive Rankings
2006 - 28th
2007 - 14th
2008 - 3rd (Kyle Shanahan O coordinator)
2009 - 4th (Kyle Shanahan O coordinator)
2010 - 3rd
2011 - 12th

Kyle was so unproved he took an offense into the top 5 in offense after having been 28th and 14th the previous two seasons. And I don't see where they've gotten substantially better since he's left do you?

Name me the last coach/GM that traded down in the draft for the Redskins?
I can tell you it hasn't been this century.

I was pointing out the most obvious one instead of listing everything. I see you failed to respond to the positive player personnel moves he has made that I talked about.

I think it's great to have good debate and discussion on this board between two people with opposing view points, but there's no need to be an asshat.

JWsleep · 01-01-2012, 08:31 PM

Ok, fellas. We can't go back in time. Forget the "magic" 09 defense already.

All this speculation about what a "better" coach could do with our powerhouse team of recent past is crap. I think all these guys are great coaches, but what is Belicheck without Brady? Peyton without Brees? Not as good, oddly enough.

Until we have a serious QB in this town we're not going anywhere. This offseason is make or break for MS because he has to solve this problem. He is going to have to hitch his fortune to an untested rookie and a decent free agent vet (not Rex, please!). If we still have the sort of hopeless QB situation we have now after NEXT season, I doubt the Danny will wait.

GTripp0012 · 01-01-2012, 08:34 PM

To me, it's not nitpicking to say that the 09 and 2011 defenses are statistically similar. I didn't think the 2009 defense was very good. We played six awful offenses in a row to begin that season. And even during that stretch, the defense was hit and miss. The 2009 defense contributed to the amazing streak the Redskins are showing to not handle rookie passers. It couldn't cover receivers. It had the ability to rush the passer and play adequate run defense, which made it a very good defense in terms of getting three and outs, but it had no dimensions to it to stop passers if the opposing quarterback was worth his salt. To me the struggles of the 2009 offense overshadowed the weaknesses of the defense. If that 2009 defense was league average, I think they win 7 games that year.

But it's also not wrong to point out where the 2011 defense failed. It was our best unit for sure between the offense and special teams, but many of its best players were wildly inconsistent (Landry - health, Kerrigan - performance, Bowen and Cofield - lack of domination), and the biggest issue with the 2011 defense is: I'm not sure where you go from here.

Like even the best of the Gregg Williams years, there were some really questionable personnel decisions in building this defense. Why did Rocky McIntosh play more snaps than Keyaron Fox? Because they technically play different positions in the defense? That's a design flaw. Why use Reed Doughty at all if he's going to be so limited as to be an obvious target for an opposing offensive coordinator. Design flaw. A whole season with DeAngelo Hall covering the other team's top target? Design flaw. Misunderstanding the career value of O.J. Atogwe as a free safety? Inexcusable design flaw.

The Redskins defense was at least average this season because it had so many good players to overcome all those flaws. Josh Wilson had a great year. LaRon Landry was very good when healthy. Fletcher is a stud. Perry Riley was a revelation that strengthened the run defense from a weak unit into a strength, giving us depth at ILB going forward. Cofield was quite good most of the year on the nose and is still learning the nuances of his position. Bowen showed a lot of potential (maybe empty potential, but you can see the ability to live up to that huge contract). Chris Neild came on at just the right time early in the season to avoid a year on the PS. Kerrigan was a rookie, and was at least in the running for DROY in most seasons (not this one). Rob Jackson proved himself a better pass rushing option than Lorenzo Alexander.

The 2011 Redskins defense overcame a lot of ills to improve on last year's defense. But you could argue that you take two of those many performances out of this defense and it would have failed to improve on last year, because they didn't really correct the issues that were wrong with the 2010 defense. They just increased the quantity of high-caliber performers.

And the biggest difference from the Blache days is that they improved on gameday in their entire operation. We're not in the 18th century anymore.

With consistently better talent evaluation, this can be an elite unit. But unless they make the right decision on Landry, Hall, Atogwe, McIntosh, Carriker, and most importantly Fletcher, I can't expect the unit to get a lot better. They gave it their all this year, used tons of creative coverages and a couple of nice blitzes, and the elite offenses in this league still pretty much had their way with it.

That Guy · 01-01-2012, 09:22 PM

josh wilson had a great year? um... he gave up an awful lot of big plays just like hall, and he covered a lot of not #1s.

NC_Skins · 01-01-2012, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

josh wilson had a great year? um... he gave up an awful lot of big plays just like hall, and he covered a lot of not #1s.

Yes, he did have a great year.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | An Early Look at 2011 CB Charting

Wilson was in the top 10. Guess who was in the bottom 3 once again?

Lotus · 01-01-2012, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

josh wilson had a great year? um... he gave up an awful lot of big plays just like hall, and he covered a lot of not #1s.

Josh Wilson did have some negative moments but overall was solid IMO. I'm happy that we have him.

Chico23231 · 01-01-2012, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

josh wilson had a great year? um... he gave up an awful lot of big plays just like hall, and he covered a lot of not #1s.

Wilson was ok, D Hall was ok. You have to compare like this, it was a solid step down from Carlos. i think both start corners this year were pretty average, the positions in the secondary which were deplorable was our 3rd corner position and our safety coverage play. Lots of decisions to be made in the secondary. You can make a case for cutting Hall, but then you have another hole because no way in hell Barnes or Westbrook have the talent to step into a starters role.

01-01-2012, 07:08 PM	#78
The Goat Pro Bowl Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 5,021	Re: Mike Shanahan I'm honestly shocked at the excuses made for Shanahan and his myriad mistakes over the last two seasons. Even if the roster today is somehow better than what he inherited, which I think is debatable but I'll accept it just for the sake of pragmatism, HE makes this a worse team than the one he inherited. By way of poor talent evaluation, especially at QB, poor time management, poor organizaing, poor decision-making with respect to muddying the team's issues with his family issues, and generally poor coaching overall. I just don't see whatever you all are seeing that evidently points to better times under Mike Shanahan. __________________ Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes he eats you.

01-01-2012, 07:27 PM	#82
SolidSnake84 The Starter Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Stephens City, VA Posts: 1,716	Re: Mike Shanahan I don't think Shanahan has done a GREAT job. I think he has done a better job than anyone before him in the sense that he is trying to build a young core group of players who can be dominate for years to come. I think in all fairness he needs to be given one more year to see for sure. This team, as it stands right now, may best case scenario go 8 and 8 next year. We are lacking a franchise QB, and i think that right there makes any other personnell moves null and void until we find him. One more year for Shanahan with a real QB before we can judge. If we get a QB we could be 10 and 6 or better.... __________________ Time to nut up or shut up

01-01-2012, 08:11 PM	#83
Beemnseven Fighting off The Crazies Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Virginia Beach Age: 39 Posts: 5,280	Re: Mike Shanahan Statistically speaking, the '09 defense was top ten. But that was deceiving. And yardage doesn't tell the whole story. That team couldn't stop anyone when it absolutely had to. It couldn't get consistent pressure on the quarterback and it couldn't get turnovers. For years this team hung on to players one year too long. In the end, Shanahan probably handled that precisely the right way.

01-01-2012, 08:31 PM	#85
JWsleep Propane and propane accessories Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 44 Posts: 4,576	Re: Mike Shanahan Ok, fellas. We can't go back in time. Forget the "magic" 09 defense already. All this speculation about what a "better" coach could do with our powerhouse team of recent past is crap. I think all these guys are great coaches, but what is Belicheck without Brady? Peyton without Brees? Not as good, oddly enough. Until we have a serious QB in this town we're not going anywhere. This offseason is make or break for MS because he has to solve this problem. He is going to have to hitch his fortune to an untested rookie and a decent free agent vet (not Rex, please!). If we still have the sort of hopeless QB situation we have now after NEXT season, I doubt the Danny will wait. __________________ Hail from Houston!

01-01-2012, 08:34 PM	#86
GTripp0012 Living Legend Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Age: 25 Posts: 15,143	Re: Mike Shanahan To me, it's not nitpicking to say that the 09 and 2011 defenses are statistically similar. I didn't think the 2009 defense was very good. We played six awful offenses in a row to begin that season. And even during that stretch, the defense was hit and miss. The 2009 defense contributed to the amazing streak the Redskins are showing to not handle rookie passers. It couldn't cover receivers. It had the ability to rush the passer and play adequate run defense, which made it a very good defense in terms of getting three and outs, but it had no dimensions to it to stop passers if the opposing quarterback was worth his salt. To me the struggles of the 2009 offense overshadowed the weaknesses of the defense. If that 2009 defense was league average, I think they win 7 games that year. But it's also not wrong to point out where the 2011 defense failed. It was our best unit for sure between the offense and special teams, but many of its best players were wildly inconsistent (Landry - health, Kerrigan - performance, Bowen and Cofield - lack of domination), and the biggest issue with the 2011 defense is: I'm not sure where you go from here. Like even the best of the Gregg Williams years, there were some really questionable personnel decisions in building this defense. Why did Rocky McIntosh play more snaps than Keyaron Fox? Because they technically play different positions in the defense? That's a design flaw. Why use Reed Doughty at all if he's going to be so limited as to be an obvious target for an opposing offensive coordinator. Design flaw. A whole season with DeAngelo Hall covering the other team's top target? Design flaw. Misunderstanding the career value of O.J. Atogwe as a free safety? Inexcusable design flaw. The Redskins defense was at least average this season because it had so many good players to overcome all those flaws. Josh Wilson had a great year. LaRon Landry was very good when healthy. Fletcher is a stud. Perry Riley was a revelation that strengthened the run defense from a weak unit into a strength, giving us depth at ILB going forward. Cofield was quite good most of the year on the nose and is still learning the nuances of his position. Bowen showed a lot of potential (maybe empty potential, but you can see the ability to live up to that huge contract). Chris Neild came on at just the right time early in the season to avoid a year on the PS. Kerrigan was a rookie, and was at least in the running for DROY in most seasons (not this one). Rob Jackson proved himself a better pass rushing option than Lorenzo Alexander. The 2011 Redskins defense overcame a lot of ills to improve on last year's defense. But you could argue that you take two of those many performances out of this defense and it would have failed to improve on last year, because they didn't really correct the issues that were wrong with the 2010 defense. They just increased the quantity of high-caliber performers. And the biggest difference from the Blache days is that they improved on gameday in their entire operation. We're not in the 18th century anymore. With consistently better talent evaluation, this can be an elite unit. But unless they make the right decision on Landry, Hall, Atogwe, McIntosh, Carriker, and most importantly Fletcher, I can't expect the unit to get a lot better. They gave it their all this year, used tons of creative coverages and a couple of nice blitzes, and the elite offenses in this league still pretty much had their way with it. __________________ Shanahan: “The bad thing is he's [Sav Rocca] probably our best offensive weapon and that’s not good.”

01-01-2012, 09:22 PM	#87
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Springfield, VA Age: 30 Posts: 15,624	Re: Mike Shanahan josh wilson had a great year? um... he gave up an awful lot of big plays just like hall, and he covered a lot of not #1s. __________________ Who says shameless self promotion is stupid? oh yeah, that was me... Click For Tunes!

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