What is Matt Flynn Worth to the Redskins

skinsguy · 01-19-2012, 03:17 PM

Just a couple of thoughts:

Joe Montana - 4 Super Bowl rings: 3rd round draft pick, 82nd overall pick.
Tom Brady - 3 Super Bowl rings (and can possibly add a fourth) 6th round pick, #199.
Roger Staubach - 2 Super Bowl rings - 10th round draft pick
Bart Starr - 2 Super Bowl Rings - 17th round draft pick
Brett Favre - 1 Super Bowl Ring - 2nd Round pick
Joe Theismann - 1 Super Bowl Ring - 4th Round Pick

Of the six I mentioned, four have multiple Super Bowl rings. All have had multiple Super Bowl appearances. Of the ten multiple super bowl winning quarterbacks, four of them are not 1st round picks. And out of the four quarterbacks with the most super bowl wins (3 or more), two are on this list, the other two are first rounders.

Just another tidbit, of the three quarterbacks to have played in multiple Super Bowls and lose them all, two of them are first round picks (Jim Kelly and Craig Morton.)

While no doubt quarterbacks who are first round picks for the most part are first round picks because they're pretty doggone good. But, I think there are many aspects to a quarterback being developed into that great Championship quarterback other than just them being highly recognized coming out of college.

I think a lot also depends upon how much work that quarterback puts into making himself better after he turns pro - no matter if he's a first or a 7th round pick. So, I completely believe that there are quarterbacks that aren't highly regarded coming out of college, but can obviously work hard and move themselves into an elite status. And, it also has a lot to do with who those coaches are that is present during that development stage. I think it could come down to simply having the right coaches there and the guy who's willing to put 110% into improving himself. SO, I don't know if I would say you're virtually guaranteed a great quarterback in the first round.

30gut · 01-19-2012, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlmpetert

My opinion was, if Matt Flynn can be successful in GB’s offense then I think he has a high likelihood of finding success in our offense, partly because I view both offenses as very similar. But a couple people, namely GTripp and 30gut, kept saying that the systems are very different, so the argument that Flynn would be good in Kyle’s system because hes been good in GB’s system is flawed.

My point was and remains that if Flynn is successful in this offense its gonna because of his physical skillset not because the schemes are 'very similar'.
Which was a point being made here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

System is very similar to Kyle's......And I don't get carried away with physical talents or "gifts".

Valuing schematic familiarity over skillset.

Here's what I said then in response to the above quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 30gut

In what way?
In a sense all NFL systems are similar.
For me a similar scheme is one where the core concepts and verbiage are the same to the point where the name of the play in one system is either the same or very close to the name of the same play in the other system.
For example David Anderson came from Houston and was able to play right away because he spoke the language of our offense.
I don't think Green Bay and our offense share the same language.
Conceptually I see Green Bay's offense as 5-7 step drop vertical rhythm passing game heavy shotgun w/a focus that attacks sideline to sideline with downflied instride especially with crossers and posts that gain RAC yardage for the WRs; with a sprinkle under center offense with 3 TEs and muliple RBs.

I see our offense as a mix of boot-swap playaction passing and 3-5-7 step rhythm passing with a focus on zone beating in-breaking or stop routes that attacks down the center of the field.

.....But throughout your advocacy for Flynn you haven't mentioned anything about his skillset.
My point is that when you sign a QB you get their skillset not their production.

......I'm not predicting whether Flynn will be good/not good.
My point is that Flynn is no different then any other journeyman/second chance QB available (Jimmy Clausen, Chad Henne, Josh Johnson, Matt Moore, etc) and they all should be judged on their skillset not their production.

Mattyk · 01-19-2012, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDSKINS4ever

You and several others completely misquoted me. I didn't say that Drew Brees, who was a 2nd round selection, and Kurt Warner, who was a free agent, didn't play in the Super Bowl. Anything other than a frachise QB either hit or miss as a said in my initial post.

I said nothing about the Redskins or their mess of quarterbacks under the Turner, Schottenheimer, Spurrier, Gibbs II, Zorn, and Shanahan regimes. I said nothing about that either. Again, you misquoted me.

I simply stated that the fact that during the last 7 Super Bowls, there has been a first round selection at quarterback that has played in the big game. Not necessarily won it but played in it. And there will be for the 8th straight Super Bowl one or two first round draft choices that will play in the Super Bowl in a few weeks.

So, most of the time, a first round draft choice playing quarterback is guaranteed success more so than a free agent QB or even a QB selected anywhere between the 2nd and 7th round of the draft.

Now, please quote me.

Gotcha.

I just don't see how first rounders are any sort of guarantee.

There are plenty of notable busts that show otherwise.

12thMan · 01-19-2012, 04:46 PM

Testy around here. It's offseason, I guess. We'll know soon enough.

ArtMonkDrillz · 01-19-2012, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Testy around here. It's offseason, I guess. We'll know soon enough.

Don't use that kind of potty language around here! This is a family forum!!!

tc2deuce · 01-19-2012, 05:43 PM

RGIII is a game changer plus he brings excitement back to DC.

skinsfaninok · 01-19-2012, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tc2deuce

RGIII is a game changer plus he brings excitement back to DC.

He'd be the face of out once proud franchise.. we haven't had that in years

#HTTR

Dirtbag59 · 01-19-2012, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Probably not a great direct comparison to Flynn's situation, but I think his point was after that game Hanie was looked at as being a QB on the rise.

Kiper and McShay were referring to both him and Hoyer a lot during the pre-draft process last year as examples of late round QB's that could find starting jobs in the near future and fetch draft picks for their current teams. I think Flynn was also included in that discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Testy around here. It's offseason, I guess. We'll know soon enough.

................**** you.......um lol jk haha. but srs **** you lol jk haha

Dirtbag59 · 01-19-2012, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tc2deuce

RGIII is a game changer plus he brings excitement back to DC.

I believe he is to. If we could look back with hindsight and say that Matt Flynn is to the Redskins what Trent Green was to the Chiefs then I would say it was all worth it.

I still would strongly prefer RGIII though even with the cost of picks to move up to acquire him.

REDSKINS4ever · 01-19-2012, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Gotcha.

I just don't see how first rounders are any sort of guarantee.

There are plenty of notable busts that show otherwise.

Mattyk, you're absolutely right. The Tim Couches, Ryan Leafs, Joey Harringtons and David Carrs, Matt Leinart, and maybe Vince Young to name a few have busted big time. But then there are others like Peyton Manning, Rex Grossman, Trent Dilfer, Donovan McNabb, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, and Aaron Rodgers with each of these former 1st round selected QBs making it to the Super Bowl since 2004.

All QBs don't succeed and all of them don't bust either.

And here we are again, with two former 1st overall selections with Eli Manning and Alex Smith about to represent the NFC in the Super Bowl and there's a good chance Joe Flacco, another first round selection possibly making it to the Super Bowl also.

All I'm saying is from the 2004 season to the 2011 season(8 seasons), there will be a first round draft pick quarterback playing in the Super Bowl. Success comes from drafting a quarterback in the first round.

theJBexperience · 01-19-2012, 09:27 PM

Time to get testy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

You cannot argue with data; you are absolutely correct.

Here is some more data you cannot argue with. Here are first round QB picks over the last decade or so who have been "less than satisfactory":

Tim Couch
Akili Smith
Duante Culpepper (injury ended his career early)
Cade McNown
David Carr
Joey Harrington
Patrick Ramsey (fondly remembered around here...)
Byron Leftwich (not horrible but not great either)
Kyle Boller
Rex Grossman (you already have a first round pick in town; why worry about getting another one)
JP Losman
Jason Campbell (Skins ditched that first round pick...)
Vince Young
Matt Leinart
JaMarcus Russell
Brady Quinn

Here's another list. You can find data to support any argument. These are 1st Round QBs from the last decade or so who have been more than satisfactory.

Peyton Manning
Ben Roethlisberger
Aaron Rodgers
Mike Vick
Eli Manning
Philip Rivers
Donovan McNabb
Jay Cutler
Matt Ryan
Matthew Stafford
Carson Palmer
Chad Pennington
Tim Tebow
Cam Newton
Joe Flacco
Josh Freeman

And then if we need even more data. We can go back a bit further and find some more stellar 1st Round QBs.

John Elway
Dan Marino
Sammy Baugh
Otto Graham
Terry Bradshaw
Doug Williams
Troy Aikman
Drew Bledsoe
Jim Kelly
Jim Plunkett
Joe Namath
Len Dawson
Phil Simms
Roman Gabriel
John Brodie
Bob Griese
Earl Morrall
Bert Jones
YA Tittle
Archie Manning

Don't you love lists?

SirClintonPortis · 01-19-2012, 11:58 PM

Re: The "list war" on this page.

The 1st round QB is a dangerous minefield, but it's a relatively safer minefield than other "fields" such as FA or trade. The difference between success or bust with a first round QB comes down to scouting and evaluating the mental makeup of the prospect.

44Deezel · 01-20-2012, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

Re: The "list war" on this page.

The 1st round QB is a dangerous minefield, but it's a relatively safer minefield than other "fields" such as FA or trade. The difference between success or bust with a first round QB comes down to scouting and evaluating the mental makeup of the prospect.

I don't think most are opposed to taking a QB in the first round. It's the part about giving up 4 or more picks to move up that causes anxiety. Seems to be about a 50/50 proposition on picking the right guy.

44Deezel · 01-20-2012, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 30gut

My point was and remains that if Flynn is successful in this offense its gonna because of his physical skillset not because the schemes are 'very similar'.
Which was a point being made here:

Valuing schematic familiarity over skillset.

Here's what I said then in response to the above quote:

I was pointing out that I don't fall in love with a guy's "gifts", such as Jeff George's arm or Kyle Boller's ability to throw a football 60 yards in the air from his knees. I also pointed out that Rivers throws like a girl and Brady looked like a dufus at the combine. Had nothing to do with putting more value on scheme.

NYCskinfan82 · 01-20-2012, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Just a couple of thoughts:

Joe Montana - 4 Super Bowl rings: 3rd round draft pick, 82nd overall pick.
Tom Brady - 3 Super Bowl rings (and can possibly add a fourth) 6th round pick, #199.
Roger Staubach - 2 Super Bowl rings - 10th round draft pick
Bart Starr - 2 Super Bowl Rings - 17th round draft pick
Brett Favre - 1 Super Bowl Ring - 2nd Round pick
Joe Theismann - 1 Super Bowl Ring - 4th Round Pick

Of the six I mentioned, four have multiple Super Bowl rings. All have had multiple Super Bowl appearances. Of the ten multiple super bowl winning quarterbacks, four of them are not 1st round picks. And out of the four quarterbacks with the most super bowl wins (3 or more), two are on this list, the other two are first rounders.

Just another tidbit, of the three quarterbacks to have played in multiple Super Bowls and lose them all, two of them are first round picks (Jim Kelly and Craig Morton.)

While no doubt quarterbacks who are first round picks for the most part are first round picks because they're pretty doggone good. But, I think there are many aspects to a quarterback being developed into that great Championship quarterback other than just them being highly recognized coming out of college.

I think a lot also depends upon how much work that quarterback puts into making himself better after he turns pro - no matter if he's a first or a 7th round pick. So, I completely believe that there are quarterbacks that aren't highly regarded coming out of college, but can obviously work hard and move themselves into an elite status. And, it also has a lot to do with who those coaches are that is present during that development stage. I think it could come down to simply having the right coaches there and the guy who's willing to put 110% into improving himself. SO, I don't know if I would say you're virtually guaranteed a great quarterback in the first round.

Good read, good post.

01-19-2012, 03:17 PM	#346
skinsguy Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina Posts: 5,999	Re: What is Matt Flynn Worth to the Redskins Just a couple of thoughts: Joe Montana - 4 Super Bowl rings: 3rd round draft pick, 82nd overall pick. Tom Brady - 3 Super Bowl rings (and can possibly add a fourth) 6th round pick, #199. Roger Staubach - 2 Super Bowl rings - 10th round draft pick Bart Starr - 2 Super Bowl Rings - 17th round draft pick Brett Favre - 1 Super Bowl Ring - 2nd Round pick Joe Theismann - 1 Super Bowl Ring - 4th Round Pick Of the six I mentioned, four have multiple Super Bowl rings. All have had multiple Super Bowl appearances. Of the ten multiple super bowl winning quarterbacks, four of them are not 1st round picks. And out of the four quarterbacks with the most super bowl wins (3 or more), two are on this list, the other two are first rounders. Just another tidbit, of the three quarterbacks to have played in multiple Super Bowls and lose them all, two of them are first round picks (Jim Kelly and Craig Morton.) While no doubt quarterbacks who are first round picks for the most part are first round picks because they're pretty doggone good. But, I think there are many aspects to a quarterback being developed into that great Championship quarterback other than just them being highly recognized coming out of college. I think a lot also depends upon how much work that quarterback puts into making himself better after he turns pro - no matter if he's a first or a 7th round pick. So, I completely believe that there are quarterbacks that aren't highly regarded coming out of college, but can obviously work hard and move themselves into an elite status. And, it also has a lot to do with who those coaches are that is present during that development stage. I think it could come down to simply having the right coaches there and the guy who's willing to put 110% into improving himself. SO, I don't know if I would say you're virtually guaranteed a great quarterback in the first round. __________________ Not the same Skinsguy that posts on ES.

01-19-2012, 04:46 PM	#349
12thMan MVP Join Date: May 2005 Location: washington, D.C. Posts: 11,363	Re: What is Matt Flynn Worth to the Redskins Testy around here. It's offseason, I guess. We'll know soon enough.

01-19-2012, 05:43 PM	#351
tc2deuce Special Teams Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 262	Re: What is Matt Flynn Worth to the Redskins RGIII is a game changer plus he brings excitement back to DC.

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01-19-2012, 11:58 PM	#357
SirClintonPortis Pro Bowl Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 6,052	Re: The "list war" on this page. The 1st round QB is a dangerous minefield, but it's a relatively safer minefield than other "fields" such as FA or trade. The difference between success or bust with a first round QB comes down to scouting and evaluating the mental makeup of the prospect.

What is Matt Flynn Worth to the Redskins

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