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Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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View Poll Results: If you had to choose between the two...
Sign Peyton Manning 43 32.82%
Trade up for RGIII 88 67.18%
Voters: 131. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-12-2012, 01:53 PM   #301
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
I think Schneed made me change my mind. the huge BUT is Peyton healthy enough to play. If he comes in and is injuried, then another waste of a year not developing a QB. I think you get Manning with the steadfast intention of still drafting a QB in the 2nd or 3rd this year.

Also Schneed, change RG3 out with Luck, same argument? Im thinking now Luck is the much better, more prepare QB prospect and I would go with Luck over Manning. On the fence now with RG3.
Depending on what it takes to move up for Luck, I'd be willing to trade up for him. If Polian was still the GM for the Colts it'd probably would have been easier to make that deal. Now? I know it's still being discussed but the reality is that a trade to #1 is not likely.

My opinion is that the gap between Luck and the 2nd best QB in this draft (which most would say is RG3) is significantly great than that of say RG3 and Ryan Tannehill. Again, that's just my opinion. But that's one big reason why I wouldn't trade up for RG3.
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:55 PM   #302
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

I think a lot of us in favour of PM have been trying to say exactly what Schneed has said throughout this thread. Me for one.

PM won't cost us anything other then money and a roster spot.
We'll still have to draft a QB.

The team can sign PM and still have all of March and April to see if his swelling in his spine goes down enough for him to get his feeling back. Draft a QB anyway and possibly two QB's and let them start learning the system. "IF" PM is not ready we start one of the Rookies. "IF" Pm is ready then we play PM and let the Rookie QBs learn while watching him. It's a no lose situation. Plus if the team decides PM is not ever going to play then hopefully there is a clause in place for PM to be cut or retire.

Then if the Rookies are not working out we still have been able to build up the team more and next year we can go all in for one of the top QB's. By then hopefully we won't need to go all in but if we do the team will have a full compliment of decent players on Offense which will make the QB's job much easier.
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:57 PM   #303
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
I have to say this thread has turned into the best discussion we've had on this board for quite a while. Lots of good points being tossed around.

I just think the merits of either move should be measured not just on the likelihood that we'll win a superbowl, but also (and perhaps moreso) on the likelihood that we'll set our team back YEARS if we miss.

With Manning, all he costs is cap room. So if he sucks (yeah, right) or isn't right due to injury (possibly), you take a one-year dead cap hit - which won't be that bad given his stated intention to make a palatable deal. Otherwise, it's no harm no foul. You move on to finding your next QB - but by then the team will have the 6th overall pick this year, plus depth from other picks. The cap room Manning takes up comes with an opportunity cost, it represents players we can't sign in free agency. But that assumes our cap may approach the limit, which doesn't make sense given that we're currently something like $35 - $45 million UNDER the cap. And if we're thinking of shopping so much that we might approach that limit with Manning this year, then we're back to taking the wrong approach to free agency - the Cerrato approach. We're not going to do that.

With Griffin, you give up several picks. If he doesn't pan out you've lost significant young depth due to the lost picks. That's depth this team still needs bad. Missing out on that depth completely stalls this team's development in my mind. The lower cap number Griffin represents really isn't a factor either - as stated, we're so far under the cap it almost doesn't matter.

What people are failing to realize here is that with Manning, you KNOW you still need to find the QB of the future. With Griffin, it sure wouldn't make sense to shop for another QB until you realize he's a failure. By the time Griffin reaches failure status, you're scrambling. Manning gives you the benefit of taking your time over the course of three years to find his successor. You're not stuck reaching for someone.

So those arguments all center around the downside risk which is key to the discussion. As for the upside, if you don't think Peyton Manning gives you the upside to make deep playoff runs over the next three years, I can't help you. You're a lost soul.
If I were a religious man, I would literally say a prayer that the Redskins FO isn't deciding to not worry about winning Super Bowls and is instead so terrified of making a mistake that they base decisions on that. Fortune favors the bold.

If you make good draft choices, they tend to work out. Bad luck can happen no matter what position you draft. Somehow people think they can talk about this as if Griffin comes with some curse attached which makes it unlikely he'll work out, while the picks spent elsewhere start off halfway to Canton.

And we "know" virtually nothing about what to expect from Manning. He isn't able to throw the ball effectively right now, and he needs nerve regeneration to happen before he does. That probably will happen, but no one knows when. Nor does anyone know how the year off will affect him. Or a change of scenery. Or the psychology of his injuries. What we do know is that his stats have already shown a downward trend thru his 30s and now we're talking about signing him for his age 36 and beyond years. People are assuming way too much about him for starters.

And RG3 is a full 14 years younger. The decision should really be made on him alone. If the team believes he is going to be a great QB, then they should do what it takes to get him. Peyton Manning shouldn't even enter into that decision. He should be considered only if the decision on Griffin is made in the negative.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:00 PM   #304
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

Funny cause I'm beginning to think the Colts possibly take RGIII instead based off of maybe what the new OC is going to want to do and what his scheme calls for. RGIII is definitely more mobile then Luck.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:01 PM   #305
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by biffle View Post
If I were a religious man, I would literally say a prayer that the Redskins FO isn't deciding to not worry about winning Super Bowls and is instead so terrified of making a mistake that they base decisions on that. Fortune favors the bold.

If you make good draft choices, they tend to work out. Bad luck can happen no matter what position you draft. Somehow people think they can talk about this as if Griffin comes with some curse attached which makes it unlikely he'll work out, while the picks spent elsewhere start off halfway to Canton.

And we "know" virtually nothing about what to expect from Manning. He isn't able to throw the ball effectively right now, and he needs nerve regeneration to happen before he does. That probably will happen, but no one knows when. Nor does anyone know how the year off will affect him. Or a change of scenery. Or the psychology of his injuries. What we do know is that his stats have already shown a downward trend thru his 30s and now we're talking about signing him for his age 36 and beyond years. People are assuming way too much about him for starters.

And RG3 is a full 14 years younger. The decision should really be made on him alone. If the team believes he is going to be a great QB, then they should do what it takes to get him. Peyton Manning shouldn't even enter into that decision. He should be considered only if the decision on Griffin is made in the negative.
Nothing wrong with taking risks, as long as they're calculated. The odds just don't stack up in Griffin's favor.

Fine line between bravery and stupidity.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:05 PM   #306
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
I think Schneed made me change my mind. the huge BUT is Peyton healthy enough to play. If he comes in and is injuried, then another waste of a year not developing a QB. I think you get Manning with the steadfast intention of still drafting a QB in the 2nd or 3rd this year.

Also Schneed, change RG3 out with Luck, same argument? Im thinking now Luck is the much better, more prepare QB prospect and I would go with Luck over Manning. On the fence now with RG3.
Trading up for Luck, I could get behind that. I view him as much more likely to "succeed" than Griffin.

Again, to me success at the QB position, on a player taken this high in the draft, does not equal a career like Carson Palmer's. If I'm going to trade up, the only way I do it is if I genuinely feel I've got a John Elway on my hands.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:11 PM   #307
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Can you deliver that in a Haiku?
He has earned billions
with overnight success and
he's the catalyst
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:12 PM   #308
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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And RG3 is a full 14 years younger. The decision should really be made on him alone. If the team believes he is going to be a great QB, then they should do what it takes to get him. Peyton Manning shouldn't even enter into that decision. He should be considered only if the decision on Griffin is made in the negative.
And to this point, this line of thinking could not possibly be more shortsighted. You cannot make a QB decision like this in a vacuum. The fact of the matter is that you're not just talking about Griffin vs Manning, as someone else pointed out way earlier in this thread, you're talking about:

Manning + retaining 6 overall + retaining whatever other picks it would take to trade up for Griffin + the ability to spend 3 years finding a QB of the future

vs

Griffin

Again, I'm leaving cap room out of the equation because we're nowhere near the limit. It's not even a constraint for the Redskins.

If you ignore the downstream impact of making each move then you're not really managing the team, it's more of a fantasy football approach.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:14 PM   #309
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Funny cause I'm beginning to think the Colts possibly take RGIII instead based off of maybe what the new OC is going to want to do and what his scheme calls for. RGIII is definitely more mobile then Luck.
Well it's going to be interesting to see how Irsay treats Pagano, Grigson, and Arians (particularly the first two) but he's been pretty candid about wanting to "take back his team" so I don't know how much their opinions will matter at the end of the day
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:28 PM   #310
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
He has earned billions
with overnight success and
he's the catalyst
lol nice.


Can anyone imagine the Colts taking RG3 over Luck? Heads explode and the Rams probably get that Hershal Walker-like deal.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:29 PM   #311
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
Nothing wrong with taking risks, as long as they're calculated. The odds just don't stack up in Griffin's favor.

Fine line between bravery and stupidity.
I really can't think of a top QB who came into the draft with anything close to Griffin's character, work ethic and production who didn't work out. But again, people apparently want to cling to this notion that all QBs in the draft come out as some kind of dice roll, so I guess these are the "odds" we are supposed to make all our decisions by.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
And to this point, this line of thinking could not possibly be more shortsighted. You cannot make a QB decision like this in a vacuum.
Frankly, yes you can. There is no single facet that comes anywhere close to predicting a team's success than the quality of their QB. In most divisions, you can rank the QBs and then go to the standings and find that you just ranked where they finished the season. If you can find a franchise QB for the next decade plus, you do it. To bypass it to draft a RT and MLB (to use the example of earlier) while farting around with the twilight of Peyton Manning's career would be the epitome of shortsightedness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
Again, I'm leaving cap room out of the equation because we're nowhere near the limit. It's not even a constraint for the Redskins.
And again, that is just hogwash. There are always ways to spend your cap dollars. Just because that disputes your argument doesn't mean you can wish it away.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:41 PM   #312
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
Well it's going to be interesting to see how Irsay treats Pagano, Grigson, and Arians (particularly the first two) but he's been pretty candid about wanting to "take back his team" so I don't know how much their opinions will matter at the end of the day
So you trying to say he's going to be another version of Jerry Jones/Dan Snyder?
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:43 PM   #313
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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So you trying to say he's going to be another version of Jerry Jones/Dan Snyder?
More like Paul Allen with the Trailblazers
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:52 PM   #314
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

Maybe this was posted if so I'm sorry but it's a nice read about PM.

Some clarity on Peyton Manning's injury - Hogs Haven

I didn't remember Montana having the same surgery. I do remember though something about worrying how fragile he might be taking a hit.
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:34 PM   #315
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by biffle View Post
I really can't think of a top QB who came into the draft with anything close to Griffin's character, work ethic and production who didn't work out. But again, people apparently want to cling to this notion that all QBs in the draft come out as some kind of dice roll, so I guess these are the "odds" we are supposed to make all our decisions by.




Frankly, yes you can. There is no single facet that comes anywhere close to predicting a team's success than the quality of their QB. In most divisions, you can rank the QBs and then go to the standings and find that you just ranked where they finished the season. If you can find a franchise QB for the next decade plus, you do it. To bypass it to draft a RT and MLB (to use the example of earlier) while farting around with the twilight of Peyton Manning's career would be the epitome of shortsightedness.



And again, that is just hogwash. There are always ways to spend your cap dollars. Just because that disputes your argument doesn't mean you can wish it away.
Yeah I think your first problem is that you seem to think Robert Griffin is God's gift. I don't see that. I see that in Luck, but not Griffin. You also seem to think Peyton is in some sort of decline. That's the biggest source of disagreement between the two of us.

As for cap space, no, not even close. There are not THAT many good ways to spend $35 - $45 friggin million in cap space. Nobody makes that many free agent acquisitions and lives to tell the tale. See: Cerrato, Vinny.

And yes, in the end Griffin is a dice roll. People have thought extremely highly of a lot of quarterbacks. Mark Sanchez and Matt Ryan were both extremely productive, highly regarded, and high character guys. One can't muster anything better than mediocre production, and the other disappears in road games and come playoff time. You just don't know.
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