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Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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View Poll Results: If you had to choose between the two...
Sign Peyton Manning 43 32.82%
Trade up for RGIII 88 67.18%
Voters: 131. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-12-2012, 08:29 PM   #361
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

Quote:
Originally Posted by biffle View Post
An 85 passer rating is basically what Campbell was doing here.
I could be way off in my thinking but I think your comparing a QB that probably threw a ton of balls and completed 85% (PM), compared to a QB who had more of a running game and was not asked to throw the ball as much but had close to an 85% rating for the few balls he did throw (JC). How does that matter? I don't think if JC had to throw as many balls his % would have been lower.

Again I could be wrong for all you stat driven people.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:37 PM   #362
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooby View Post
For me it all depends on how FA shakes out. There's multiple scenarios here which I wouldn't mind if it happened.

Scenario A:
Sign Manning in FA, trade down in first, pick up multiple picks, take Tannehill in late first/early second and also use other picks to fill other spots, like maybe a Kendall Wright or Juron Criner to help out Manning.

Scenario B:
RG3 falls to 6, we take him. No trade down, no FA qb, etc. This would be a scenario I wouldn't see happening as the Shannies' first choice, but one where if the situation did occure they'd take advantage of.

Scenario C: Crazy trade scenario where we trade up to 1, Colts trade down to 2, and Rams trade down to 6. We get Luck, Colts get RG3, and Rams get draft picks to help out Bradford.

Scenarios I would be pissed if they happened:

Scenario D: We sign Orton in FA, and take one of the non-Tannehill 2nd rate draft qb's available and head into TC with Orton and 2nd rate guy ready to battle.
I like option A although I wouldn't take a QB early in that scenario I would target BPA with a focus on OL,S

I love option B and I think its possible, but man we all need to start living right to be lucky enough for Griffin to fall to us

Don't like C too much

I view option C much differently then you because I don't consider all the non-Tannehill QBs '2nd rate' and therefore wouldn't be as upset with some of them that scenario depending on where they're drafted.
It would gall me a little though because Orton was available last offseason and we didn't go after him.
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Last edited by 30gut; 02-12-2012 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:40 PM   #363
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

Quote:
Originally Posted by biffle View Post
I don't think anyone is "God's gift" and I'm not sure what the point of a lame comment like that is. If you don't like him as a prospect, that's fine. I do, as do plenty of other people. We can disagree, but rest assured, I don't need you to tell me what "my problem" is..
Sheesh, touchy. God's Gift was just my term for someone you think extremely highly of. That must be the case, there's no way you'd ever trade so many picks to get someone you didn't think was God's Gift.

Quote:
Originally Posted by biffle View Post
Manning's passer ratings by age:
28- 121.1
29- 104.1
30- 101
31- 98
32- 95
33- 99.9
34- 91.9

A pretty clear downward trajectory there, and that number for his last year would have been good for only 7th best in the NFC this season.

People decline physically as they get older. It's not exactly controversial to say that. And taking a year off and having multiple surgeries aren't exactly elixirs for that.
From age 29 to age 33, those QB ratings are for all intents and purposes, the same. Nobody who watched Manning over that time would ever say that he fell off during that time. He was just as deadly. As for the 34 year old season, don't forget that was the year he played hurt the entire year with neck pain and numbness in his arm. Hence the neck surgeries and now the nerve regeneration.

People decline physically, yes. But it's typically fast twitch muscle that falls off as you age. RBs, WRs, and DBs are particularly prone to aging, they rely on agility and speed which requires fast twitch muscle. Arm strength can decline some, but that's typically more a function of mechanics. On Peyton's particular situation, spinal fusion surgery results in complete nerve regeneration over 90% of the time. It also results in vertebrae that are stronger and more resistant to injury than they were even before the surgery. Some range of motion can be lost, but this is insignificant to the sport of football. In other words, Manning is almost certain to be himself again. Those are just the medical facts.



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Originally Posted by biffle View Post
Ah, so once there was a terrible GM who didn't know what he was doing, so all Free Agent spending is bad. Brilliant. Does that also apply to Gibbs' Washington-Springs-Griffin-Daniels-Moss spending spree that was the basis for two playoff runs? How about the Patriots first Super Bowl win after signing about 20 FAs? There are smart ways and dumb ways to spend money, just like there are dumb ways to do most anything.

For the record, why don't you look at GTripp's breakdown of our cap space. People keep throwing these numbers around and thinking that we are going to have trouble figuring out what to do with all the cap space. Once we re-sign our own and our draft picks, that space turns into a much more pedestrian number.
Fair point. I will concede that I do believe free agency can still be successful in filling out a team. But successful forays into free agency do not include bringing in $35-$45 million worth of free agent talent. That's almost an entirely new starting lineup.

As for GTripp's breakdown, you probably don't realize it but you've stepped into my wheelhouse - salary cap analysis. GTripp's breakdown post is one I used to do for this site. He did it this year for whatever reason, I chose not to make an issue of it, but that doesn't mean I agree with the analysis. He's right in saying we need a portion of our cap space to resign our own players or replace them with other players. But I don't agree with the conclusion that there is only $15 million of flexibility. You may be able to assume same cap value when considering replacement cost of departing players, but that doesn't mean those replacements won't be talent upgrades.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:41 PM   #364
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689 View Post
Wait. Luck had a mediocre line? I wouldn't say that at all.
I was not so much insinuating that. I was trying to make a point that you would have to actually look at their teams playing in each game to determine how they got their yrds. Was it designed or was it due to play break downs. Plus I think it depends on the talent they played.... was the QB forced to run more based off the talent of the defenses they faced.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:41 PM   #365
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by CultBrennan59 View Post

Sweet baby jesus, why does JLC hate on the Skins? Did Snyder steal his lunch money growing up or something?


Smoot, what's the lowdown on JLC? He get kicked in the balls by Redskins personnel or something?

Feinstein is also way off. He obviously hates Mike Shanahan for sure, and that's pretty classless of him to slam Sally that way.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:47 PM   #366
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

Is there any where we can go to look up what of the good QB's in history had a really good spiral ball vs. good QB's in history that didn't?

I ask because obviously I'm a Weeden fan and had heard that he will have success cause he throws a really tight spiral ball. Where other QB's will muscle the ball down the field having it wobble, Weeden's flies smooth through the air. It was discussed that where RGIII might be able to throw the ball farther on a windy day he might not due to the ball wobbling in the air vs. Weeden who can throw a tight spiral which will enable the ball to fly through the air easily.

I thought I had heard something like this yrs ago that you always want to look for a QB who throws a really tight spiral because they usually turn out to be really good QB's in the NFL.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:50 PM   #367
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
Sweet baby jesus, why does JLC hate on the Skins? Did Snyder steal his lunch money growing up or something?


Smoot, what's the lowdown on JLC? He get kicked in the balls by Redskins personnel or something?

Feinstein is also way off. He obviously hates Mike Shanahan for sure, and that's pretty classless of him to slam Sally that way.
I don't like JLC either but I kinda see where he's coming from I posted something similar earlier.
As much as I want Peyton its hard for me to figure why he would want to come here as opposed to say South Beach or the Jets (if they're ready to move on from Sanchez).

Re:Sally
Me thinks there's a bit of professional jealously involved because of Jenkin's access to Mike Shanahan, its a relationship that Feinstein and other local media lack.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:53 PM   #368
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

Here something...

What Does A Tight Spiral Mean In Football? | LIVESTRONG.COM

Quote:
A tight spiral is desirable under all conditions but it is a necessity in windy conditions. When the ball is thrown into the wind, it will knock the ball down, slow it down and impact its flight to the target. A tight spiral helps keep the ball on track. As the ball spins quickly, it has a better chance to remain on course. The receiver will have to adjust to the flight of the ball but not as much as when the quarterback does not throw a tight spiral

Read more: What Does A Tight Spiral Mean In Football? | LIVESTRONG.COM
Quote:
NFL Quarterbacks
Former Miami Dolphin quarterback Dan Marino is considered one of the hardest throwers in NFL history. The Hall of Famer's tight spiral was the product of a quick and powerful release. Fellow Hall of Famer John Elway was also known for the power of his arm and his tight spiral. Elway threw the ball so hard that the point of the ball often left an impression on the receiver when he caught it. "The Elway Cross" was left on the chest of receivers when a tight spiral hit the receiver with full force.



Read more: What Does A Tight Spiral Mean In Football? | LIVESTRONG.COM
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:59 PM   #369
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

I have said I would like to see us get

Flynn
Weeden

But no matter what we do in FA, I'm thinking it would be neat to maybe grab two QB's in the draft. Perhaps Weeden and Foles. Both are tall enough and both throw tight spirals and reports are they can make all the throws.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:59 PM   #370
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
From age 29 to age 33, those QB ratings are for all intents and purposes, the same. Nobody who watched Manning over that time would ever say that he fell off during that time. He was just as deadly. As for the 34 year old season, don't forget that was the year he played hurt the entire year with neck pain and numbness in his arm. Hence the neck surgeries and now the nerve regeneration.

People decline physically, yes. But it's typically fast twitch muscle that falls off as you age. RBs, WRs, and DBs are particularly prone to aging, they rely on agility and speed which requires fast twitch muscle. Arm strength can decline some, but that's typically more a function of mechanics. On Peyton's particular situation, spinal fusion surgery results in complete nerve regeneration over 90% of the time. It also results in vertebrae that are stronger and more resistant to injury than they were even before the surgery. Some range of motion can be lost, but this is insignificant to the sport of football. In other words, Manning is almost certain to be himself again. Those are just the medical facts.
No, those numbers represent a consistent decline, with one outlier year. Because they aren't huge doesn't mean they are not happening. He has been slowly declining thru his 30s, which is hardly shocking.

Note my post above. QBs who had the same types of skills as Manning (Marino, Unitas, Fouts, Kelly) were falling off a cliff in performance after the age of 35. There is no basis for believing Manning will just chug along with no drop-off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
Fair point. I will concede that I do believe free agency can still be successful in filling out a team. But successful forays into free agency do not include bringing in $35-$45 million worth of free agent talent. That's almost an entirely new starting lineup.

As for GTripp's breakdown, you probably don't realize it but you've stepped into my wheelhouse - salary cap analysis. GTripp's breakdown post is one I used to do for this site. He did it this year for whatever reason, I chose not to make an issue of it, but that doesn't mean I agree with the analysis. He's right in saying we need a portion of our cap space to resign our own players or replace them with other players. But I don't agree with the conclusion that there is only $15 million of flexibility. You may be able to assume same cap value when considering replacement cost of departing players, but that doesn't mean those replacements won't be talent upgrades.
That's nice, and I'm not in total agreement with all his assumptions either, but it's a starting point. He also has us releasing players that I don't envision and doesn't seem to have outlayed cap space for draft picks. So, in those regards he is overestimating the cap space we will have. My own guesstimates had us at 16-18 mil in cap space after re-signings and draft picks, assuming none of the Snyder/Vinny era back loading of contracts. That is a fairly modest amount of money to spend.

And all of that is kind of moot anyway, as apparently the ability to rollover cap space form year to year holds throughout the CBA. So, the money you're advocating spending on Peyton doesn't have to go to a spending spree, some of it could just be saved for the future.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:09 PM   #371
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689 View Post
Wait. Luck had a mediocre line? I wouldn't say that at all.
Two of his OL will most likely be drafted in the top 20. I wouldn't call that a mediocre line...lol
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:20 PM   #372
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
Kid, I have no clue who who you are nor do I give a flying ****. I haven't said the first thing to you so if you have your panties in a bunch it's your problem. I you don't like me, put me on ignore and go about your way. If you are going to insult people (much like you did with me and others) and not bring anything else to the table, then I suggest you go over to Extremeskins where you'll be much more suited.

I'm here to talk football and other things. We don't often agree around here, but there is a line of respect we try to maintain. I've apologized a few times when I've been out of line, but I recognize that and correct it. You on the other hand are bitter about something so that's on you.

I find it funny you talk about "character" and yet you sit behind a computer insulting people you have zero clue about. What does that say about your character...or lack there of? I do my work, and my boss doesn't have to ask me twice to do anything. I get incredible reviews on my job. I am the utmost professional at my job. I said that to piss you off and it hit the mark, and for that, I'm glad.

If you got anything else to add (or not add in this case), then send it via PMs. You are detracting away from the discussion going on. Have a nice day.
Wow...a couple of paragraphs. Now I feel really bad.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:22 PM   #373
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by mooby View Post
For me it all depends on how FA shakes out. There's multiple scenarios here which I wouldn't mind if it happened.

Scenario A:
Sign Manning in FA, trade down in first, pick up multiple picks, take Tannehill in late first/early second and also use other picks to fill other spots, like maybe a Kendall Wright or Juron Criner to help out Manning.

Scenario B:
RG3 falls to 6, we take him. No trade down, no FA qb, etc. This would be a scenario I wouldn't see happening as the Shannies' first choice, but one where if the situation did occure they'd take advantage of.

Scenario C: Crazy trade scenario where we trade up to 1, Colts trade down to 2, and Rams trade down to 6. We get Luck, Colts get RG3, and Rams get draft picks to help out Bradford.

Scenarios I would be pissed if they happened:

Scenario D: We sign Orton in FA, and take one of the non-Tannehill 2nd rate draft qb's available and head into TC with Orton and 2nd rate guy ready to battle.
Right on all around.
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:23 PM   #374
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

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Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
It's not as simple as asking to choose between RGIII and Peyton. The real question is which package would you rather have?


Which would you choose?


Package A:

1) RGIII


Package B:
1) Peyton Manning (while using 3rd rounder to draft Kirk Cousins)
2) Reily Reiff -OT (1st)
3) Alfonso Denard-CB (2nd)
4) Lucas Nix -OG (4th)

5) Manti Te'o - ILB (2013 1st)
6) Orhian Johnson -SS (2013 4th)





That's about what you'll have to pay to get RGIII. SO tell me, which would you chose? Put your mancrush down and think sensible. Knowing the holes we have, would you honestly give up all that for RGIII? If you whiff on that pick, you are screwed for many many years to come. You whiff on Cousins, and you pick up a QB later on and still have a solid team.

Package B all day....ERRR DAY.
I'll take the latter as well. All day everyday and twice on Sundays ( and into watching football in Jan and maybe Feb. )
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:31 PM   #375
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Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice

Why is RG3 considered such a sure-fire prospect, I keep reading posts (albeit many of them from ES) that mention RG3 and Luck in the same breathe, as if these guys aren't that far apart.

I love RG3 and he's exciting to watch, but I'm not about to glance over the fact that he comes from a spread offense. RG3 has little to no practice in going through progressions/making post-snap reads. This may be me being a little tough on him, but I see a QB that stares down one side of the field, waits until a man gets open and if he doesn't feel a man is going to get open he takes off from the pocket running.

That doesn't sound like the type of football that would translate well to the NFL. Could it? Certainly, and it has before. But I can't see why he's consider a sure-fire pick.

RG3's floor in my opinion is a bust, he could literally flop out of the NFL. While Luck's on the other hand is probably that of an average to above average QB. So long as Luck stays healthy I expect him to be a starting QB his entire career, I can't say the same for RG3.

I may just be preaching to the choir, but if anyone out there is of the mind-set that RG3 should be uttered in the same breathe as Luck, or believes he's a sure-fire prospect, I would like to hear the reasoning why.
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