Warpath  

Home | Forums | Salary Cap Info | Shop | Donate | Stay Connected




Go Back   Warpath > Redskins Forums > Redskins Locker Room


Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Redskins Locker Room


Reply
 
LinkBack (1) Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-04-2012, 04:45 PM   #16
The Starter
 
Mechanix544's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Fort Bliss, TX
Posts: 2,273
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

IMO, Peyton is going to have a huge chip on his shoulder. IMO, I hope he is playing for us, rather than playing against us the remainder of his career, because, IMO, he will be on a frikkin mission. IMO.
__________________
Ain't Nothin Like a Good B Western.

YEEHAW
Mechanix544 is offline   Reply With Quote

Advertisements
Old 03-04-2012, 04:46 PM   #17
Living Legend
 
GTripp0012's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Evanston, IL
Age: 26
Posts: 15,994
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
The Kyle Shanahan offense is a lot more vertical than it seems to be given credit for. It's not really a "sideline to sideline" west coast offense
Truth.

Kyle uses the bunch formation a lot, which is an old WCO trick, but outside of the steady diet of Shanahan bootlegs (which seem more like an odd bastadization of the Mike Shanahan playbook than an offensive staple), and those bunch formations, Kyle's offense is much closer to an old school Al Davis offense built off of deep drops and lots play action and max protection.

There just isn't much of a west coast element in the Redskins offense.

And I'd add one observation I made in re-watching the 2009 and 2011 seasons over the last two weeks: the Redskins are far more likely to use running plays which you would call man to man blocking schemes under Kyle Shanahan than they were under Jim Zorn/Sherm Smith/Sherm Lewis.
__________________
according to a source with knowledge of the situation.
GTripp0012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 05:05 PM   #18
Playmaker
 
Defensewins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,839
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbedner3420 View Post
The reason the texans didn't get to the playoffs was the defense, not the offense. Kyle had no control over that.
The Texans had a great offense when KS was there and even better offense since he left because of the great players there. Not because KS re-invented the wheel or taught the Texans players how to play. KS is a good coordinator. let's not give him more credit than he deserves just yet. The head coach of the Texans was a respected offensive coordinator as well.
Peyton Manning is a future Hall of Fame QB. KS hopes to make it.
Peyton Manning > KS.

Last edited by Defensewins; 03-04-2012 at 05:21 PM.
Defensewins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 05:21 PM   #19
Playmaker
 
Defensewins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,839
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDSKINS4ever View Post
It's good to see Peyton Manning throw the football with some pop. As for Peyton becoming a west coast offense quarterback, I don't agree with that. Mike Shanahan, if he signs Manning, should incorporate the types of plays that Manning ran in Indy and tweak the offense to what Peyton Manning does. Period. If not, disaster will strike and so will conflict which is the reason why Peyton Manning shouldn't be a Redskin.
I agree that if PManning comes here we have to modify our offense. Otherwise PManning will get injured running naked bootlegs and roll outs. It is his weakness.
I disagree with you that we should not sign him because we should not modify our offense. Great teams do it from time to time with great success. Are we so arrogant and inflexible to not change for the betterment of the team? The goal is to win and win a Superbowl....right? Or is our goal to play MS system win or lose? Square peg...round hole. Ego's need to be checked at the door.

Last edited by Defensewins; 03-04-2012 at 05:31 PM.
Defensewins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 06:14 PM   #20
Franchise Player
 
skinsfan69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 9,368
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTripp0012 View Post
Truth.

Kyle uses the bunch formation a lot, which is an old WCO trick, but outside of the steady diet of Shanahan bootlegs (which seem more like an odd bastadization of the Mike Shanahan playbook than an offensive staple), and those bunch formations, Kyle's offense is much closer to an old school Al Davis offense built off of deep drops and lots play action and max protection.

There just isn't much of a west coast element in the Redskins offense.

And I'd add one observation I made in re-watching the 2009 and 2011 seasons over the last two weeks: the Redskins are far more likely to use running plays which you would call man to man blocking schemes under Kyle Shanahan than they were under Jim Zorn/Sherm Smith/Sherm Lewis.
Actually do you know who invented the bunch sets? Gibbs 1 with The Posse.
skinsfan69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 06:26 PM   #21
Living Legend
 
GTripp0012's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Evanston, IL
Age: 26
Posts: 15,994
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Quote:
Originally Posted by skinsfan69 View Post
Actually do you know who invented the bunch sets? Gibbs 1 with The Posse.
I did not know that, but that would be a smart way to use that personnel.
__________________
according to a source with knowledge of the situation.
GTripp0012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 06:26 PM   #22
Registered User
 
SBXVII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 7,766
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCskinfan82 View Post
If he comes here I'm happy, but the more I think about it I want a QB to come in and learn our system not his system, don't get me wrong I'm sure KS can learn alot from PM but he needs to play our system IMO.
Well you talk to the QB's and they will say that most teams copy each other and they all pretty much run similar plays. Personally I think PM is smart enough to adapt to KS's system more so play calls and I too think KS could learn a lot from PM. It would be nice to see both get along well enough to make this system a fine tuned running machine for the next few yrs and maybe get a long well enough to be able to work together in the future.
SBXVII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 06:38 PM   #23
Playmaker
 
artmonkforhallofamein07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Charleston , SC
Posts: 4,663
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
The Kyle Shanahan offense is a lot more vertical than it seems to be given credit for. It's not really a "sideline to sideline" west coast offense
I have a comment and a question.

What we have been fed in the media, and what we have seen here in DC, is our offense is more of a MS scheme then KS.

In Houston, KS's offense required the QB to throw the ball down field out of the pocket predominantly rather than throwing outside the pocket by design?

So what is our philosophy? How does KS run our system correctly if he has his own way of doing things?
__________________
Robert Griffin III welcome to the Washington Redskins!

Year 1 - NFC EAST Champions at 10-6

Year 2 - 3-10... Benched 14 weeks to late.....

Year 3 - Pure Awesomeness!!

http://site.fandangoracinginc.com/
artmonkforhallofamein07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 06:47 PM   #24
Uncle Phil
 
SmootSmack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 44,615
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

That probably requires a lengthier answer than I'm prepared to write at the moment. I would say a) there were more bootlegs in Houston than Schaub probably needed and b) look at Grossman's games and you'll see more of that vertical offense. Thing is Mike and Kyle don't have a radically different offense from each other. Though yes, Mike prefers more natural mobility from his QB. It's them vs. other WCO guys. Like say Mike Holmgren, which is why a Matt Flynn works for Cleveland but not for us.
__________________
You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You
SmootSmack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 06:58 PM   #25
Living Legend
 
GTripp0012's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Evanston, IL
Age: 26
Posts: 15,994
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Quote:
Originally Posted by artmonkforhallofamein07 View Post
I have a comment and a question.

What we have been fed in the media, and what we have seen here in DC, is our offense is more of a MS scheme then KS.

In Houston, KS's offense required the QB to throw the ball down field out of the pocket predominantly rather than throwing outside the pocket by design?

So what is our philosophy? How does KS run our system correctly if he has his own way of doing things?
SmootSmack will probably have a slightly different take on things, so I hope that this is taken as a second answer to a good question, instead of just me trying to state his opinion.

This is Kyle Shanahan's offense. Kyle Shanahan's offense uses a lot of plays that you have seen Denver use over the last twenty years.

Philosophically, Kyle is a lot more "college" than Mike ever was. By that I mean: a lot of Kyle's tendencies as a coach suggest that you can prep a very high percentage of your coaching during the week, and that preparation will show on game day. The quarterback's work is done predominantly in practice, not at the line of scrimmage. The Redskins have a game plan going into the week, and they will stick with that gameplan until the game situation dictates they need to wing it.

They can (and do) take a lot of time in the huddle, because on a lot of their passing plays, the quarterback knows where he is trying to get the ball before the defense even gives him a look. I'm not saying the Redskins don't have secondary reads, because that would not be accurate. The Redskins are a 1 -> 2 -> throw away/check down team like most in the NFL. It's just that: the Redskins don't determine the play progression at the line of scrimmage based on the defense. They already had it set on Wednesday in practice. Kyle's plays attempt to act foolproof to defensive wrinkles.

The problem that Kyle has run into as Redskins OC is when defensive coaches decide they are going to man up on the Redskins receiver or man-press the Redskins receiver and dare a quarterback like McNabb, Grossman, or Beck to find a better matchup while the play is happening, or throw the receiver open. When Grossman or McNabb has been locked in, they were able to do this, but a majority of the time, the Redskins have struggled with man coverage defenses.

Grossman's biggest problem is that when he identifies man to man coverage, he often forgets that the defense still has two "free" players on the field he needs to account for. So he'll throw away from the man to man defender to help out his receiver, and possibly will still get him killed.

Philosophically, Kyle believes in his passing game. He doesn't always believe in the running game (whether you believe this to be a talent issue or a coaching failure is entirely up for debate -- but do consider that he believes in his passing game and in Rex Grossman despite no playmakers on the outside). That's a big difference between Mike and Kyle. In Mike's best coaching days, he could force a defense to tip it's hand and cheat to either stop the run or the boot passing game. When defenses cheat on Kyle or queue into something the Redskins are trying to do that is gameplan specific, I don't think Kyle sees it as quickly as some other coordinators, which is why you won't see a lot of screens or draws in the second quarter if the Redskins offense is struggling. Maybe that's something that will come with experience. It's something Zorn did very well, although you could argue that Zorn's base offense would be abandoned entirely after the play script was exhausted.

Kyle runs a largely effective, but highly risky play action passing game off of play action as a staple. The problems have always come when defensive coordinators cheat and start to send two defenders (blitzers) to the same gap in the protection in an obvious attempt to blow up the Redskins pass protection, based on their tendency to not adjust always at the LOS. Obviously, if DCs are cheating often enough, that means that they simply will not have enough guys in the front to stop the run.

But if the Redskins believe they don't have the personnel to run the ball in passing downs, or worse, they have the personnel, but the coordinator can't dial up the correct rushing play to attack a cheating defense, then this is a worthwile gamble by the Rex and Rob Ryans of the world.
__________________
according to a source with knowledge of the situation.

Last edited by GTripp0012; 03-04-2012 at 07:08 PM.
GTripp0012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 07:19 PM   #26
Uncle Phil
 
SmootSmack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 44,615
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Here's a good article

One play can alter a season - The Washington Post

And some supporting pictures

Film Breakdown of 'An Intricate Look into Kyle Shanahan's Play Call vs Dallas' - Hogs Haven
__________________
You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You
SmootSmack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 08:10 PM   #27
The Starter
 
30gut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,099
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Quote:
Originally Posted by artmonkforhallofamein07 View Post
What we have been fed in the media, and what we have seen here in DC, is our offense is more of a MS scheme then KS.

In Houston, KS's offense required the QB to throw the ball down field out of the pocket predominantly rather than throwing outside the pocket by design?

So what is our philosophy? How does KS run our system correctly if he has his own way of doing things?
Mike and Kyle run the same offense in terms of verbiage and overall 'playbook'.
Kyle learned from Houston under Kubiak who learned from Mike in Denver.

But, to sum it up in football philosophy I think Mike can be considered more of balanced (which today would probably be considered run heavy) playcaller and Kyle is closer to pass heavy play caller.

Mike has a much greater emphasis and calls a more diverse running game then Kyle.
Mike's was more diverse of course the staple was zone runs but it also featured traps, draws, tosses.
Kyle's running game was very basic: inside zone/out side zone.
Its wasn't until week 12ish that Kyle added and began featuring the toss/pitch as his main weapon in the ground game.
Mike's emphasis on the run creates favorable passing match-ups because the emphasis on the run dictates coverages.
And creates a bunch of easy big play completions almost every game.
Mike also moved the pocket more not just play-action based rollouts and bootlegs but non-playaction dash outs and sprint outs.
The result was an offense that featured well defined and often half-field reads.
The result was an offense easy to execute for the QB.
Kyle's offense is pass first.(and there's nothing wrong with that I'm not saying that Kyle is a bad playcaller. I'm pointing out the difference is their playcalling as I see it.)
In Kyle short career his pass/run ratio is 60/40. (2010 it was actually less then 60/40)
Kyle's offense is more of a straight drop back 5 step passing game.
There is more onus on the QB dropping back and reading out full field progressions.
Its a more QB decision making intensive offense.

Those differences are the big ones that jump out to me.

I think its pretty much moot because IF they sign Peyton Manning they should in essence run 'Peyton Manning/Colt's offense' or else what's the point?
Peyton and Kyle sitdown and discuss their plan of action for the offense but the passing game specifically.
Peyton discussing how the playcalling and audible system worked.
They discuss concepts and translate the core concepts of the Colt's offense into our/Kyle's offense verbiage.
__________________
No longer were NFL coaches dealing inflexibly with spread [QBs] in ways that caused stunted development for players like [A. Smith and Vick] now, the idea is to bring what the quarterback can do, and what he should do, together as an organic whole

Last edited by 30gut; 03-04-2012 at 08:14 PM.
30gut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 08:45 PM   #28
Living Legend
 
skinsfaninok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Oklahoma City (Originally from Biloxi, Ms)
Age: 27
Posts: 16,094
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Kyle's offense is better than we have seen simply because we don't have the talent to take it down field enough.
__________________
THUNDER UP

"if you're good at something, never do it for free"- The Joker

skinsfaninok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 09:25 PM   #29
Playmaker
 
artmonkforhallofamein07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Charleston , SC
Posts: 4,663
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Still reading through the answers guys, but nice work. Thanks for your insight.
__________________
Robert Griffin III welcome to the Washington Redskins!

Year 1 - NFC EAST Champions at 10-6

Year 2 - 3-10... Benched 14 weeks to late.....

Year 3 - Pure Awesomeness!!

http://site.fandangoracinginc.com/
artmonkforhallofamein07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 09:39 PM   #30
Living Legend
 
GTripp0012's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Evanston, IL
Age: 26
Posts: 15,994
Re: Peyton Manning videotaped making 35+ yard throws at Duke University

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
What I like most about this play is it is essentially a spread offense play run out of the tight splits favored by pro coaches.

The pass concept is more popular on the college level, like, for example, here:


Although it would help if the QB made the correct read
__________________
according to a source with knowledge of the situation.
GTripp0012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site is not officially affiliated with the Washington Redskins or the NFL.
Page generated in 0.36323 seconds with 10 queries

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25