A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building

GTripp0012 · 03-25-2012, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paintrain

To answer the final question, yes, I think there is a plan and has been since 2010. 2010 evaluate the roster and start the 3-4 transition, try to win with core players plus a couple of additions. 2011 focus on building a playoff defense through the draft and free agency. 2012 focus on building a playoff offense, focusing on skill positions (that's why I don't think an early pick on a RB is out of the question) and specify areas of need. The cap penalties probably derailed our full plan this offseason but we targeted players to address one of our major shortcomings in recent years, team speed and explosive players.

How would you rectify this outline with Shanahan's belief that he had already built a playoff offense his first two years here, and then obviously the talent upgrades from the 2012 draft?

Your outline seems to suggest that multiple issues have been targeted then solved, but I'm not even sure the Redskins ever correctly identified what was causing the losing. It seems like after the failure in 2010, they just attributed it to being too old/prone to injury/lacking in depth to compete in the modern NFL. So then they overhauled the roster with younger players, and when that didn't solve the problems, they attributed it again to injury.

I suppose its possible that the attribution is correct and that the annual injury problem was fixed by the 2011 (and 2012) youth injection, and that last years continuation of pretty much every problem from the last eight years was a coincidence. It's at least possible that Mike Shanahan is the genius and we're the fools who didn't see that he fixed every problem with the franchise during a 5-11 season. But on the other side of the coin is the chance that Shanahan was never right about where the problems were, and that youth can't cure the problems with the training staff and the coaching staff.

Am I wrong in that suggesting that any plan that follows the pattern that you suggest here necessarily requires that Mike Shanahan understood most or all the issues with the team from the beginning? But then you go to mid-season last year and post-2011 and comments at least suggest that he was off (by a lot) in his assumptions (and willing to admit that -- to a degree).

I think your plan to rebuild the franchise would be very rational in hindsight, I just don't think it's particularly relevant to what has actually occurred with the Redskins the last two years.

diehardskin2982 · 03-25-2012, 01:14 AM

I like to think that we aren't rebuilding just doing what's needed to compete. Year 1 of Shanny we thought we could plug in some vets and an established qb then we'll win, it didn't happen. He found quickly that age was the issue and a culture change was needed badly.
2nd year we used the uncapped year to clean house and get younger. The quality of QB was not available through freeagency. The draft was not an option do to the lockout. Therefore we traded down, acquired picks and focused on the defense getting 3-4 players and WR's. Now we have a decent defense. The secondary regressed and we need more production from the wideout position. It was nessesary to get a blue chip qb. We didn't tank the season and Barkley stayed for his senior year so the only option was trading up.

REDSKINS4ever · 03-25-2012, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehardskin2982

I like to think that we aren't rebuilding just doing what's needed to compete. Year 1 of Shanny we thought we could plug in some vets and an established qb then we'll win, it didn't happen. He found quickly that age was the issue and a culture change was needed badly.
2nd year we used the uncapped year to clean house and get younger. The quality of QB was not available through freeagency. The draft was not an option do to the lockout. Therefore we traded down, acquired picks and focused on the defense getting 3-4 players and WR's. Now we have a decent defense. The secondary regressed and we need more production from the wideout position. It was nessesary to get a blue chip qb. We didn't tank the season and Barkley stayed for his senior year so the only option was trading up.

Good assessment. The defense is strong enough to be playoff caliber and the offense just needs a few more play makers. We gained that through free agency. Although the offensive line is in question, I like our O line. With the addition of either RG3 or Luck, that would put the Redskins into a position to greatly improve and be highly competitive.

Bucket · 03-25-2012, 02:40 AM

I don't understand why people talk about rebuilding in the NFL. No team in the NFL rebuilds. You have a plan set out for the franchise and putting the right pieces in place if that be long term or short is how you win.

Do we have young players? Yes, but many draft picks in the past 5-7 years that are not even 30 have been traded, released etc.

There is no such thing as rebuilding in the NFL.

VegasSkinsFan · 03-25-2012, 04:02 AM

Rebuilding, not rebuilding. It's not an important question. The real question is did we get better or worse than we were last season and have we positioned ourselves for long term success.

I think we will miss Landry more than people think even considering his injuries. Fletch is most likely going to get old in a hurry. Not loving the secondary or the depth at several spots most notably ol. Is RG3 going to be any better in his rookie season than the beck/grossman combo?

On the flip side RG3 has given us a potential stud QB. Jenkins should be back. Helu, hank and the other young guys will get a full offseason under their belts.

Personally, I'm renewing my Sunday ticket package with the hopes of winning 6-7 games, being competitive in another 6-7 games, and drinking heavily in the 2-4 games we will get blown out due to RG3 having a rookie QB game.

I'm also renewing because I think in three years we can be really special.

zeesson · 03-25-2012, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Yeah, not like we're getting arguably the best prospect in the draft but we won't have a pick in the 2nd round!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! The horror, the shame, the soul piercing agony!

lololololololololol!!

Schneed10 · 03-25-2012, 08:25 AM

I don't really think there needs to be a clear-cut distinction between "rebuilding" and trying to "win now". I think quite simply, the team is trying to improve. And the leadership knows that there are still a lot of holes.

Trading the picks for Griffin was a wise move from both the immediate future perspective and the long term perspective. A top notch franchise quarterback will deliver more win shares over the next 10 to 15 years than three non-QB first round picks would. And the likelihood of Griffin not panning out is about the same as the three picks it took to get him going bust, so downside risk does not come into the equation in my mind.

Aside from that, you simply fill every hole you can with young players, whenever you can. Who cares whether it's rebuilding or what. Just get better.

30gut · 03-25-2012, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I agree, though I think if the team had gotten pre-2006 Mike Shanahan instead of what we've had on the sideline the last two years, its very possible (maybe probable) that we'd have at least a winning season with him.

Good point that leads to a whole other discussion about the differences between Kyle and Mike as playcallers that most turn a blind eye towards.

As a huge fan of the Mike Shanahan's Denver WCO, I feel confident in saying that Kyle and Mike, although they coach in the same system, same scheme, are fundamentally different playcallers.

Not to say that Kyle is a bad playcaller, I don't think he is, but for my money I have very little doubt that Mike Shanahan's run centered focus as the primary playcaller would have netted in different on the field results.

(Flame suit on) I know it pointless to mention but I will always wonder whether the conflict between Kyle and McNabb would have occured between Mike and McNabb, I don't think it would've.
But, I digress....

KI Skins Fan · 03-25-2012, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

How would you rectify this outline with Shanahan's belief that he had already built a playoff offense his first two years here, and then obviously the talent upgrades from the 2012 draft?

Mendacity, son, mendacity! Mr. Mike simply didn't tell us the truth. He knew he didn't have a playoff offense, just like he knew that Grossman and Beck couldn't get the job done at QB.

You seem to think that Mike Shanahan lacks the ability to realistically evaluate the talent on his team. I don't. I just think that he doesn't mind telling a few fibs about what he thinks of the talent level on his team.

For some reason I don't understand, the entire Redskins management team refuses to admit that they are rebuilding.

That Guy · 03-25-2012, 08:52 AM

rebuilding is kind of a myth. we've been "rebuilding" since when? norv? gibbs I?

after 3-4 years you start losing as many players as you get due to age/expiring contracts/etc. navigating might be a better word.

this year, for example. I expect our offense to be better, but our secondary and LB corp may be worse. that's more like a trade off than an upgrade, but those are the choices you make and you just hope that overall you've done enough to win more games. I think RGIII will be huge in that regard, maybe even in year 1 and 2, but that, talent for dollar, garcon and morgan are a bit borderline.

It's easy to upgrade your top 53 with sub $2mill/year deals. upgrading the top 22 usually takes real money, but it's important to pick correctly there, since the contracts kind of marry you to those players. when you pick incorrectly (mcnabb/haynesworth/etc etc) it really stunts the team, since you've waste time developing players and cap space not signing guys that could actually help you win. It's MUCH better to not sign someone over giving big money to the wrong guy. you can't win via free agency with a 50% hit rate (which is what vinny had). BA has done better on that front.

going foward there's only a couple bleh contracts left, and they're immediately disposable (hall etc) without big cap penalties for the most part (stupid jamal brown).

anyways, back the the question. I think shanny came i and did the house cleaning bit, wasted 2 years with the wrong QBs, and now I expect a solid season... if RGIII had been here two years ago, I'd expect playoffs now, but the rookie QB learning curve can be harsh, so that tempers things. I don't really buy rebuilding as a concept, but I think once you've got the right QB you can't really be considered rebuilding, only competing for the postseason (and if you're not, it's either the wrong QB or a mismanaged roster/player aquisition system).

REDSKINS4ever · 03-25-2012, 08:58 AM

I wouldn't call what the Redskins did at the quarterback position last season rebuilding with QB being the most important position on the field. Mike Shanahan did no better than guessing. Both Beck and Grossman were below average in terms and of play, and Shanahan went with both of them and we know how awfully that turned out. With veteran leadership already on the roster, we had a good draft last spring in conjunction with that. NFL teams don't rebuild in this era like in the past. Teams just get better at the positions they need to, and improve until they are contenders and champions.

redskinjim · 03-25-2012, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinsfaninok

If RGIII lives up to the number 2 pick? This team won't rebuild for long

this trade was a bargain you will see that in the years ahead

diehardskin2982 · 03-25-2012, 11:02 AM

I think we are a victim of circumstance in terms of the secondary because of the cap penalty. Now, we are hoping that the front 5 will create enough pressure to make up for the decline in the secondary.

RG3 is going to be 100x better Grossman and Beck last season. Can you imagine the bootleg with a 4.37 fast QB that can throw an accurate deep arm. I think we will lead the league in plays for over 20 yards per catch and we'll have the number 1 rushing offense. The defense will struggle because they will have to deal with more desperate offenses.

NAVY CHIEF · 03-25-2012, 11:08 AM

Who Knows? I'm tired of ****ing loosing. The NFL is set up so a 5-11 team can go 11-5 next season. If RG3 is who they think he is then we can be very competitive next year.

TheMalcolmConnection · 03-25-2012, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diehardskin2982

I think we are a victim of circumstance in terms of the secondary because of the cap penalty. Now, we are hoping that the front 5 will create enough pressure to make up for the decline in the secondary.

RG3 is going to be 100x better Grossman and Beck last season. Can you imagine the bootleg with a 4.37 fast QB that can throw an accurate deep arm. I think we will lead the league in plays for over 20 yards per catch and we'll have the number 1 rushing offense. The defense will struggle because they will have to deal with more desperate offenses.

I could definitely see that happening yardage-wise because everyone will be throwing to catch up (hopefully). Will be so nice to see us have a decent lead and be able to send a ton of blitzers though. There was maybe one game last year where we actually had a lead and just sent the wolves. Was OUTSTANDING to watch.

03-25-2012, 01:14 AM	#47
diehardskin2982 What will Shanny do this offseason? Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,925	Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building I like to think that we aren't rebuilding just doing what's needed to compete. Year 1 of Shanny we thought we could plug in some vets and an established qb then we'll win, it didn't happen. He found quickly that age was the issue and a culture change was needed badly. 2nd year we used the uncapped year to clean house and get younger. The quality of QB was not available through freeagency. The draft was not an option do to the lockout. Therefore we traded down, acquired picks and focused on the defense getting 3-4 players and WR's. Now we have a decent defense. The secondary regressed and we need more production from the wideout position. It was nessesary to get a blue chip qb. We didn't tank the season and Barkley stayed for his senior year so the only option was trading up. __________________ Let's win games now...PLEASE

03-25-2012, 02:40 AM	#49
Bucket The Starter Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Martinsburg, WV Posts: 2,136	Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building I don't understand why people talk about rebuilding in the NFL. No team in the NFL rebuilds. You have a plan set out for the franchise and putting the right pieces in place if that be long term or short is how you win. Do we have young players? Yes, but many draft picks in the past 5-7 years that are not even 30 have been traded, released etc. There is no such thing as rebuilding in the NFL. __________________ HTTR Redskin Fan since '88 Be friends on Twitter! @thecasualhero

03-25-2012, 08:25 AM	#52
Schneed10 RG Glee Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Newtown Square, PA Age: 33 Posts: 7,918	Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building I don't really think there needs to be a clear-cut distinction between "rebuilding" and trying to "win now". I think quite simply, the team is trying to improve. And the leadership knows that there are still a lot of holes. Trading the picks for Griffin was a wise move from both the immediate future perspective and the long term perspective. A top notch franchise quarterback will deliver more win shares over the next 10 to 15 years than three non-QB first round picks would. And the likelihood of Griffin not panning out is about the same as the three picks it took to get him going bust, so downside risk does not come into the equation in my mind. Aside from that, you simply fill every hole you can with young players, whenever you can. Who cares whether it's rebuilding or what. Just get better. __________________ Skins' Salary Cap Status \| CrazyCanuck's Cap Figures by Player \| Salary Cap 101

03-25-2012, 08:52 AM	#55
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Springfield, VA Age: 30 Posts: 15,644	Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building rebuilding is kind of a myth. we've been "rebuilding" since when? norv? gibbs I? after 3-4 years you start losing as many players as you get due to age/expiring contracts/etc. navigating might be a better word. this year, for example. I expect our offense to be better, but our secondary and LB corp may be worse. that's more like a trade off than an upgrade, but those are the choices you make and you just hope that overall you've done enough to win more games. I think RGIII will be huge in that regard, maybe even in year 1 and 2, but that, talent for dollar, garcon and morgan are a bit borderline. It's easy to upgrade your top 53 with sub $2mill/year deals. upgrading the top 22 usually takes real money, but it's important to pick correctly there, since the contracts kind of marry you to those players. when you pick incorrectly (mcnabb/haynesworth/etc etc) it really stunts the team, since you've waste time developing players and cap space not signing guys that could actually help you win. It's MUCH better to not sign someone over giving big money to the wrong guy. you can't win via free agency with a 50% hit rate (which is what vinny had). BA has done better on that front. going foward there's only a couple bleh contracts left, and they're immediately disposable (hall etc) without big cap penalties for the most part (stupid jamal brown). anyways, back the the question. I think shanny came i and did the house cleaning bit, wasted 2 years with the wrong QBs, and now I expect a solid season... if RGIII had been here two years ago, I'd expect playoffs now, but the rookie QB learning curve can be harsh, so that tempers things. I don't really buy rebuilding as a concept, but I think once you've got the right QB you can't really be considered rebuilding, only competing for the postseason (and if you're not, it's either the wrong QB or a mismanaged roster/player aquisition system). __________________ Who says shameless self promotion is stupid? oh yeah, that was me... Click For Tunes!

03-25-2012, 08:58 AM	#56
REDSKINS4ever The Starter Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Born and raised in D.C. and now lives in Harlem, New York Posts: 2,036	Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building I wouldn't call what the Redskins did at the quarterback position last season rebuilding with QB being the most important position on the field. Mike Shanahan did no better than guessing. Both Beck and Grossman were below average in terms and of play, and Shanahan went with both of them and we know how awfully that turned out. With veteran leadership already on the roster, we had a good draft last spring in conjunction with that. NFL teams don't rebuild in this era like in the past. Teams just get better at the positions they need to, and improve until they are contenders and champions.

03-25-2012, 04:02 AM	#50
VegasSkinsFan Impact Rookie Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 533	Rebuilding, not rebuilding. It's not an important question. The real question is did we get better or worse than we were last season and have we positioned ourselves for long term success. I think we will miss Landry more than people think even considering his injuries. Fletch is most likely going to get old in a hurry. Not loving the secondary or the depth at several spots most notably ol. Is RG3 going to be any better in his rookie season than the beck/grossman combo? On the flip side RG3 has given us a potential stud QB. Jenkins should be back. Helu, hank and the other young guys will get a full offseason under their belts. Personally, I'm renewing my Sunday ticket package with the hopes of winning 6-7 games, being competitive in another 6-7 games, and drinking heavily in the 2-4 games we will get blown out due to RG3 having a rookie QB game. I'm also renewing because I think in three years we can be really special.

03-25-2012, 11:02 AM	#58
diehardskin2982 What will Shanny do this offseason? Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,925	Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building I think we are a victim of circumstance in terms of the secondary because of the cap penalty. Now, we are hoping that the front 5 will create enough pressure to make up for the decline in the secondary. RG3 is going to be 100x better Grossman and Beck last season. Can you imagine the bootleg with a 4.37 fast QB that can throw an accurate deep arm. I think we will lead the league in plays for over 20 yards per catch and we'll have the number 1 rushing offense. The defense will struggle because they will have to deal with more desperate offenses. __________________ Let's win games now...PLEASE

03-25-2012, 11:08 AM	#59
NAVY CHIEF Camp Scrub Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Richmond VA Posts: 14	Re: A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building Who Knows? I'm tired of ****ing loosing. The NFL is set up so a 5-11 team can go 11-5 next season. If RG3 is who they think he is then we can be very competitive next year.

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A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building

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