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A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

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Old 03-26-2012, 07:21 AM   #16
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

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Originally Posted by Alvin Walton View Post
The offense needs to be built around this guy.
Period.
You dont buy a Beemer and use it to tow your dirt bike trailer.
i agree he is the key
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:25 AM   #17
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

we can win with this guy right now.just taylor the offense around him
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:23 AM   #18
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

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Originally Posted by 30gut View Post

o the core offense/formations will remain unchanged but the playcalling balance will return and the offense will look more like Houston and the traditional Mike S. Denver WCO with a heavy focus on stretch running and boot-action passing?
This is what I'd like to see for the most part. Don't change the system, but don't try to force square pegs into round holes either.

Clearly we're going to have a QB that can do a lot more with his legs than a McNabb, Grossman, or Beck. I don't want to do too much designed running with RGIII because I want him healthy, but certainly bootleg stuff could be very effective. We're going to have a stronger receiving corps with additions like Garcon. Plus we'll have a healthy Cooley and hopefully a more focused, not stoned Fred Davis.

Seems to me that this team will have significantly more potential talent-wise on offense. Let's call plays around that.
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:40 PM   #19
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

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This is what I'd like to see for the most part. Don't change the system, but don't try to force square pegs into round holes either.

Clearly we're going to have a QB that can do a lot more with his legs than a McNabb, Grossman, or Beck. I don't want to do too much designed running with RGIII because I want him healthy, but certainly bootleg stuff could be very effective...
I kinda agree with you because I'm a traditional smash mouth football type of guy.
I loved the traditional run balance of (sans Kyle) Houston and Mike. S Denver WCO.
Griffin would be deadly running or throwing off boot-action.
Mike Shanahan's traditional Denver WCO would be a breeze for QB like Griffin to learn and execute.

But, whether its a bootleg run or zone read play both are plays with a designed QB run option that can put the QB at risk.

Some of the cutting edge NFL offenses feature the same formations and concepts Griffin mastered at Baylor.
As the rest of the league adds more and more of these spread elements, not neccessarily designed QB runs but spread elements, wouldn't the offense benefit from making the same shift?
Especially with a QB like Griffin that's proven his proficiency in that system?
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No longer were NFL coaches dealing inflexibly with spread [QBs] in ways that caused stunted development for players like [A. Smith and Vick] now, the idea is to bring what the quarterback can do, and what he should do, together as an organic whole

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Old 03-26-2012, 04:09 PM   #20
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

Here are 2 NFL spread offense at work:

New England Patriots @ Buffalo Bills Highlights 9-25-11 - YouTube
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Old 03-26-2012, 04:36 PM   #21
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

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I kinda agree with you because I'm a traditional smash mouth football type of guy.
I loved the traditional run balance of (sans Kyle) Houston and Mike. S Denver WCO.
Griffin would be deadly running or throwing off boot-action.
Mike Shanahan's traditional Denver WCO would be a breeze for QB like Griffin to learn and execute.

But, whether its a bootleg run or zone read play both are plays with a designed QB run option that can put the QB at risk.

Some of the cutting edge NFL offenses feature the same formations and concepts Griffin mastered at Baylor.
As the rest of the league adds more and more of these spread elements, not neccessarily designed QB runs but spread elements, wouldn't the offense benefit from making the same shift?
Especially with a QB like Griffin that's proven his proficiency in that system?
Well, adding some spread concepts for Griffin would certainly be smart. I never said I didn't want him running the ball at all, I just don't want to see it all the time for health reasons. My worry is they'll run a ton of boots, and until RGIII gets really comfortable with NFL defenses, he'll be too quick to exercise that run option, increases his chances of getting hurt on the run .
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:38 PM   #22
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

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I never said I didn't want him running the ball at all, I just don't want to see it all the time for health reasons. My worry is they'll run a ton of boots, and until RGIII gets really comfortable with NFL defenses, he'll be too quick to exercise that run option, increases his chances of getting hurt on the run.
Right on.
I just wanted to point out that I wasn't suggesting that Griffin should run all the time either or that adding spread concepts doesn't equate to designed QB runs.

I agree that whichever style offense they run shouldn't have too many of designed runs either.
I also think Griffin needs to be exercise much better judgement in knowing when to get down and avoid a hit versus when to try and gain that extra yardage and exposing his body.
Imo fearlessness is one of the traits that Griffin shares with Locker.
These guys made some breathtaking runs and also exposed their bodies and took many unneccessary hits.

If there is one area where I wouldn't mind seeing more designed plays with QB runs as an option is the read zone.
That is one area where I think the risk is worth the reward.

Back to your OP, truth be told any option that involves a return of balanced playcalling is the least likely scenario in my mind.
Regardless of whether there are more spread concepts or the offense concepts/formations remains unchanged from last year I doubt Kyle will ever have the run balance that was the staple of the DWCO.

I'm not saying that as a value judgement either; just an observation of the trend in Kyle's pass/run ratio both here and in Houston.
Although I prefer balanced playcalling there are plenty of great offenses in the league that lack balanced playcalling but are still highly productive.
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No longer were NFL coaches dealing inflexibly with spread [QBs] in ways that caused stunted development for players like [A. Smith and Vick] now, the idea is to bring what the quarterback can do, and what he should do, together as an organic whole

Last edited by 30gut; 03-26-2012 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:45 PM   #23
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

I say same but better as long as the Shanahan's are in town. If the Shanahans get fired then at that point it may be best to bring in someone that will design an entire offense around RG3's skill set with RG3, similar to how Drew Brees and Sean Payton essentially designed the Saints offense together.
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Old 03-26-2012, 09:07 PM   #24
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

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I say same but better as long as the Shanahan's are in town.
You mean for what you want to see or what you expect to see?
Quote:
If the Shanahans get fired then at that point it may be best to bring in someone that will design an entire offense around RG3's skill set with RG3, similar to how Drew Brees and Sean Payton essentially designed the Saints offense together.
It maybe a sublime a distinction but I think the Brees/Payton relationship is different from what I'm suggesting with a rookie QB.
Brees chose what he liked from within Payton's playbook.
I'm thinking more along the lines of adding to the playbook based on Griffin's college offense ala Rob Chudzinski and Cam Newton.
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Old 03-26-2012, 09:19 PM   #25
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

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Originally Posted by Dirtbag59 View Post
I say same but better as long as the Shanahan's are in town. If the Shanahans get fired then at that point it may be best to bring in someone that will design an entire offense around RG3's skill set with RG3, similar to how Drew Brees and Sean Payton essentially designed the Saints offense together.
I agree. Ideally, you want to be able to utilize your player's talents to the fullest but not to the extent where you suppress your own talents as a coach/playcaller. As a coach/coordinator, you need to have the ability to run the newly installed system in real time in game situations as defenses adjust. This takes experience. You can't be learning as you go -- you need to be effective right now. You don't want to be a amatuer play-caller at running a new system going against defenses who are experts, experienced at defending it. This WILL get you fired.

The Shanahans should add some plays to highlight RG3's skillset to their playbook but they should not get TOO far away from their expertise.
For this reason its best to go "same but better". We can add some spread, option, etc. but not completely convert to a new system(unless you can run it as an expert right away OR your bringing in a coaching staff whose specialty is that offense).

I actually prefer Shanahan's playaction system anyway. It's just hard to run it when you have no protection, ineffective rushing attack, slow receivers who can't get separation or can't beat the press, and a qb who can't throw OR run. And considering all of those flaws, I actually thought we did OK last year. Imagine what we can do if we can do with the right personnel. If we have weapons and protection, they can't over-key or over-pursue the ball. It will be interesting to see how defenses defend us with all of those options available - RB/WR/TE/QB.
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:34 PM   #26
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

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I agree. Ideally, you want to be able to utilize your player's talents to the fullest but not to the extent where you suppress your own talents as a coach/playcaller. As a coach/coordinator, you need to have the ability to run the newly installed system in real time in game situations as defenses adjust. This takes experience. You can't be learning as you go -- you need to be effective right now. You don't want to be a amatuer play-caller at running a new system going against defenses who are experts, experienced at defending it. This WILL get you fired.
But why do attribute negative results to adding spread concepts to the offense?

I think you do NFL coaches a disservice when you imply adding new concpets would turn them into amatuers or that or that adapting their offense equates to suppressing their own talents.

Some OCs like our very own Joe Gibbs have drastically changed their offense on the fly during the season (as has Chan Gailey w/Chiefs and Denver last year).
Rob Chudzinksi is from the San Deigo Air Coryell tree yet effectively ran an offense that featured a lot of spread elements with a sprinkle of zone read.
Chan Gailey basically runs a spread offense with the Bills.

Being able to adapt is a hallmark of innovation not of suppression.

By the time a coach makes it to NFL there aren't many concepts they haven't explored.
Therefore I don't think any offensive concepts are going to be completely 'new'.
Kyle like most OCs already runs some spread concepts:

Quote:
The Shanahans should add some plays to highlight RG3's skillset to their playbook but they should not get TOO far away from their expertise.
For this reason its best to go "same but better". We can add some spread, option, etc. but not completely convert to a new system(unless you can run it as an expert right away OR your bringing in a coaching staff whose specialty is that offense).
Scratching head; 'the same but better' is different scenario then adding some spread and some option.
Which would be more like this option:
Quote:
the offense formations will change and our offense will adopt and feature some of Baylor's formations and concepts, like they way the Panthers added some of Auburns formations, plays and concepts?
Except, I guess you don't want to alter the offense to as great of an extent as the Panther and the Bills?
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No longer were NFL coaches dealing inflexibly with spread [QBs] in ways that caused stunted development for players like [A. Smith and Vick] now, the idea is to bring what the quarterback can do, and what he should do, together as an organic whole

Last edited by 30gut; 03-26-2012 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:13 AM   #27
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

30gut.

I think we should run the same offense we ran last year and add SOME spread. We should NOT throw out the whole playbook and install ALL spread. Spread is good and we should add some but not ALL. We should still have a running attack and run playaction as well just like last year. If we were to install ALL spread it would be better to bring in a new regime that runs spread offense as their specialty.

If an offensive coordinator has no experience running a certain scheme then he is an amatuer with that scheme period. If Kyle knows spread then he's not an amatuer with spread. If he doesn't then he is an amateur (compared to a profressional who knows it.)

If a regime throws out the old playbook and adopts a brand new one that they are not familiar with then not only are they amatuers then they are also supressing their own talents and skills (even if it is an attempt to highlight the talent on the field). It is definitely good to use your talent on the field. But not to the degree where you stop doing what YOU know and what you are good at in exchange for what you think your talent is good at. In other words I think it is a mistake to COMPLETELY throw out the old playbook in exchange for a new one that you are not as experienced with.

If you think this is a good idea then I think you do a disservice to NFL defensive coordinators to think an offensive coordinator can run a foreign system effectively against a DC that is accustomed to stopping it. I'm NOT talking about adapting on the fly--I'm talking about changing the whole philosophy, scheme, gameplan as being a bad idea if it is not who and what we know how to do now.

I prefer the core of the offense to be a function of the play action. Yes, we should add some spread but I prefer that the bulk of our offense be what is was last year - a function of the playaction mostly because this is who our offensive coordinator is right now and partly because I like having the option of a solid running game and misdirection with the playaction.

Our offense should be a function of both the coaching staff's talents AND our players' talents, not just the players' talents. That is how loaded teams get upset and average teams beat loaded ones.
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:40 AM   #28
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

At times, the Redskins offensive coaches should incorporate plays that will take advantage of Griffin III's running ability. While we don't want RG3 banged up too much, running bootleg plays, the wishbone offense, option plays, and having RG3 in the wildcat formation would be a nice idea. Does anybody remember when Brandon Banks was in the wildcat during the game against Minnesota at Fed EX Field in 2010? If anyone remembers the Carolina vs Redskins game last year, the Panthers took advantage of Cam Newton's ability to run with the football by calling option plays.
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:57 AM   #29
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

I think

1- everyone is saying RG3 fits our scheme so there should not be a whole lot of changes.

2- one media source I was listening to mentioned that with Garçon, AA, Moss, and Gaffney because of the speed and RG3 we should be able to add a little spread offense wrinkle.

3- MS and KS just don't seem the type to change what their doing for their QBs sake, ie; McNabb, Beck. I think they will keep the offense the same but use RG3's speed with a lot more roll outs and bootlegs. That should open up the down field shots since the defense will have to put one guy to shadow RG3.
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Old 03-27-2012, 09:37 AM   #30
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Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

Former Shanahan coordinator says RG3 "is going to fit perfect" with Redskins - Washington Times

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“Mike likes to run the ball – everything starts with the run – and likes to move his quarterback,” Kubiak said at the AFC coaches’ breakfast here Tuesday. “I don’t know that I’ve seen one move like this guy in a while. He’s very smart. This guy is going to fit perfect with what they want to do – if they take him, of course.”
I think the kid is going to be excellent here. Hopefully he has a lot of luck(no pun) on his side in regards to injuries.
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