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A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

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Old 05-25-2012, 08:22 PM   #76
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Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

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Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
I think Royster is stronger, like the vision and hands. I love Helu no doubt, I dont think he is a consistent 20+ carry guy. Helu is the biggest playmaker and better to the outside. We will need both in order to be successful. I see Hightower as the 3rd down back with the pass protection skills and the I think he knows how to get the "tough yard" when needed.
Why don't you think Helu is a consistent 20+ carry back?
Helu has demonstrated this ability more then Royster has.
Helu has actually carried the ball 20+ times 4 games, Royster on the other hand has yet to carry it over 20 times.

I gotta disagree with you on the strength and hands though.
I think Helu is clearly the strongest back on the roster running through contact and has the best hands.

Lets keep in mind that if Royster showed better then Helu last year Royster would likely have made the roster while Helu would have went to the practice squad.

When it comes to vision and running style I think they complement each other.
Helu is more no nonsense to me, he makes his decision quickly and commits.
Royster is more patient a little more shifty and seems to look for the cutback.
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Old 05-26-2012, 10:06 AM   #77
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Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

Ultimately Shanny will go with the back with the hot hand aka the one back who is being most productive...I just think Royster will be given the chance over Helu.

Hey both are a very similar and will have to contribute in order for us to win. Lets see how their second season goes, im pulling for both guys.
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Old 05-27-2012, 01:56 AM   #78
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Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

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Royster has the best vision of the three. I mean, I probably didn't see enough Royster to conclude that unconditionally, but Hightower really leaves a lot of yards out on the field and I don't feel Helu is blessed with great vision, at least based on what he displayed as a rookie. You'd want to put Helu in the open field and let his elusiveness take over rather than asking him to find the open field himself.

I'd still say Helu is the best of the three by a considerable amount (for all the talk about how Hightower is an excellent pass protector -- and he is -- Helu was almost as good by the end of the season), but he isn't blessed with that great vision, and if the offensive line were to become one of the five best in football, it'd be Royster who would pick up the most yards behind that group.

Here's why Helu is so critical: those bootlegs that Kyle is practicing with RG3 just won't be that effective against NFL defenses unless: he's willing to put Helu at tailback on up to 75% of run down snaps, and then give him the ball on the stretch run a steady diet. It's too easy to cheat on the bootleg (and get free shots on RG3) if you know it's coming and you're simply not worried about the stretch run to the frontside.

So while it seems like Griffin will be deadly on boots, if Kyle just sends Hightower out there every first and ten for every first quarter of the game, and then fakes it to him on boot action, RG3 isn't going to even get out of the backfield after the second game of the season. Teams know that you can stop Hightower on the stretch run with seven guys. So then there's always going to be an unblocked defender (strong safety or slot back typically) clean through to Griffin.

In the past, Kyle hasn't been good about getting his best backs into the game on first and ten. That's four years running now. For Griffin to be at his most dangerous, that needs to change this year. Helu must dominate early down snaps in the first half of games.
Solid stuff here. Kyle's scheme/playcalling is my biggest offensive concern for this season, even bigger than the situation at OT.

I mean our hope really has to be Griffin perfectly fits the scheme AND Kyle's play-calling improves by at least 50% (example: he goes from calling the right play about 33% of the time to around 50%).
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:15 AM   #79
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Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

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Solid stuff here. Kyle's scheme/playcalling is my biggest offensive concern for this season, even bigger than the situation at OT.

I mean our hope really has to be Griffin perfectly fits the scheme AND Kyle's play-calling improves by at least 50% (example: he goes from calling the right play about 33% of the time to around 50%).
I don't understand this notion of the 'right' playcall.
Nor the idea that you can quantify Kyle's or any coaches number of 'right' playcalls especially by percentages.
Does Kyle need to improve? Sure.

But, if there's one thing I feel fairly certain about it Griff's fit in this offense though.

I feel less confident about Helu/Royster/Hightower getting more then 400 carries this season.
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:24 AM   #80
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Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

I also think that Helu's draft position will give him a slight advantage over Royster. Its a pretty good position to be in when both of your top running backs show as much promise as do Helu and Royster, but combined, they dont even count 1 million against our cap this year. I would like to think that both of them would get good carries, but one of them would clearly pull ahead by the end of the season as the #1 back. It gives us some value when looking at trades for future draft picks, as well as players, not that we are going to go that route by any means, just saying that the perceived value will be there should they both perform well.
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:30 AM   #81
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I also think that Helu's draft position will give him a slight advantage over Royster. Its a pretty good position to be in when both of your top running backs show as much promise as do Helu and Royster, but combined, they dont even count 1 million against our cap this year. I would like to think that both of them would get good carries, but one of them would clearly pull ahead by the end of the season as the #1 back. It gives us some value when looking at trades for future draft picks, as well as players, not that we are going to go that route by any means, just saying that the perceived value will be there should they both perform well.
That's a great point about their cap numbers. As much as I like a ray rice Peterson, or forte they bring too much drama and too large a percentage of cap.
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:40 AM   #82
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Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

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That's a great point about their cap numbers. As much as I like a ray rice Peterson, or forte they bring too much drama and too large a percentage of cap.
If we're being realistic.
We hope one or both of them emerges as a RB of Peterson, Ray-Rice or Forte's caliber.
If and when they do reach that level of production Helu and Royster will rightly desire that level of compensation.
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:01 PM   #83
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If we're being realistic.
We hope one or both of them emerges as a RB of Peterson, Ray-Rice or Forte's caliber.
If and when they do reach that level of production Helu and Royster will rightly desire that level of compensation.
I really don't want the club to have that model. I would much rather have a packers/patriots model where our cap dollars go more towards the QB and receivers and the online that gives th protection.. Of course I want our RBs to be the best in the league, I just don't want to wind up handcuffed by them in the future regarding salary cap. I find it embarrassing for the bears forte released a video of himself sled running to get a better contract.

RBs get hurt too often and are too easily replaceable to tie cap dollars to.
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:42 PM   #84
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Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

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I really don't want the club to have that model.
I don't understand what you mean by 'that' model?

Those teams are just lucky enough to have elite talent at the RB position.
None of those teams (Vikings,Bears especially) really has a good OL yet those backs make those running games very good.
They have the type of RBs that can carry an offense.
And those backs are rare.
You can throw Arian Foster in the mix too.

The irony of your theory is that in our offense (when ran correctly) is driven by the running game.
For all the talk of Elway/Shanahan success Terrell Davis was the engine behind that offense the same way that Arian Foster/Ben Tate are the engine behind the Texan's offense.

Quote:
I would much rather have a packers/patriots model where our cap dollars go more towards the QB and receivers and the online that gives th protection..
Lets not forget that the Packers made Ryan Grant a rich man and Patriots paid Corey Dillon to fuel their Superbowl run/victory.


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Of course I want our RBs to be the best in the league, I just don't want to wind up handcuffed by them in the future regarding salary cap. I find it embarrassing for the bears forte released a video of himself sled running to get a better contract.
Well if our RBs become the best in the league we're gonna have to pay them market value or watch them walk, its just how the league works.
I don't think the Bears mismanagement is an example of how to run a franachise.
I'm embarrassed for the Bears that they're making they're best player go through this.
Forte's situation is a prime example of why a player shouldn't play under a bad contract in the hope of signing a "good faith" deal in the future. (which is what he did last year)
The Bears offense [was[/B] Cutler and Forte and without them they cannot/ did not win.

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RBs get hurt too often and are too easily replaceable to tie cap dollars to.
That seems to be the prevailing thought these days.
But football is a game of attrition, players are gonna get hurt regardless of position (QBs, RBs, WRs) happens every year.
I would agree that non-elite RBs are easily replaceable but so are most non-elite players.
But, an elite RB is just as irreplaceable as any other elite player.
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:50 PM   #85
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Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

-VegasSkinsFan
btw from the OP:
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Originally Posted by 30gut View Post
Between Roy Helu, Tim Hightower and Evan Royster we have 3 RBs capable of 100 yard production.

What do you think of each RBs style and which do you like the best?
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Old 05-28-2012, 04:21 PM   #86
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Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

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I don't understand this notion of the 'right' playcall.
Nor the idea that you can quantify Kyle's or any coaches number of 'right' playcalls especially by percentages.
Does Kyle need to improve? Sure.

But, if there's one thing I feel fairly certain about it Griff's fit in this offense though.

I feel less confident about Helu/Royster/Hightower getting more then 400 carries this season.
Well, the "right" playcall could best be described as one taking the defense by surprise and/or exploiting the D's scheme and positioning. I think Kyle, on average, has gotten it right so far about a third of the time. To begin, he's been pass-heavy (about 60/40 I believe) even though we didn't have the personnel, namely a solid passer, to justify a lopsided air attack. The ratio should have been flipped toward a running game, which btw is what Mike's offense would have looked like.

Second, Kyle's choice of run and pass plays has been quite poor. Most games he sticks to just a few run plays, and if they aren't working he abandons the run quickly. Even more bizarre in some games he abandoned the run even when it was working...? And his air attack mostly relies on the passer leading his target to be effective, again despite the fact we haven't had a passer capable of doing just that very well.

You can certainly make the argument Griffin will fit Kyle's system perfectly, but that doesn't mean it's the perfect system. Savvy?
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:00 PM   #87
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Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

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Well, the "right" playcall could best be described as one taking the defense by surprise and/or exploiting the D's scheme and positioning. I think Kyle, on average, has gotten it right so far about a third of the time.
I disagree with how you characterize the 'right' playcall and the idea that you can qauntify the number of 'right' playcalls vs 'wrong' playcalls.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on that part...

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Originally Posted by The Goat View Post
To begin, he's been pass-heavy (about 60/40 I believe) even though we didn't have the personnel, namely a solid passer, to justify a lopsided air attack. The ratio should have been flipped toward a running game, which btw is what Mike's offense would have looked like.
Agree 100%.

Quote:
Second, Kyle's choice of run and pass plays has been quite poor. Most games he sticks to just a few run plays, and if they aren't working he abandons the run quickly. Even more bizarre in some games he abandoned the run even when it was working...? And his air attack mostly relies on the passer leading his target to be effective, again despite the fact we haven't had a passer capable of doing just that very well.
I agree and have echoed your sentiments here for awhile I started a thread that chronicles Kyle's pass 1st nature:

http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-l...-lament-4.html (A pass 1st offense weekly lament)

I've been saying that Kyle's running game lacked diversity and commitment.
Both traits are decidedly atypical for this offense (Texans/Houston) and for Mike Shanahan himself.

E.g. lack of diversity:
o didn't start running the toss/pitch play til Week 12 (IIRC) yet the toss/pitch has been a staple of this offense going back to Terrell Davis in Denver.

o didn't use the trap very much all year except for the Cardinals game (maybe its because Kory was usually the pulling guard on there plays?)
click on this video and witness the successful use of the inside trap w/ Kory as the pulling guard:
Cardinals vs Redskins 2011 :: RoyHelusRuns.mp4 video by Txredskins44 - Photobucket

Quote:
You can certainly make the argument Griffin will fit Kyle's system perfectly, but that doesn't mean it's the perfect system. Savvy?
We're getting waaaaayyyy off topic, but your above statement is patently obvious to the extent that I don't even know why you posted it because I've never expressed the idea that Kyle's system was anywhere close to being a perfect system.
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:26 PM   #88
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Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

I have to go with Royster as my favorite back, at least right now. The guy has decent speed and can plow people over, let alone has GREAT cuts.

Helu is nice as well, very similar, but for some reason I feel he runs out of steam much much faster than Royster does, and he can't take the hits nearly as well (not saying he goes down easy because he doesn't).

Hightower I'm really not so sure he fits in the system. He looked great in preseason last year, but during regular season the production wasn't that great IMO.

Coming into the season I have to think the lineup would be Royster, Helu and Hightower, but I wouldn't leave the 6th round pick, Alfred Morris, from FAU to steal a spot in training camp or later in the season. He reminds me A LOT of Walter Payton and when I interviewed him last night, he compared himself to him a lot.

Either way, I think we're good at the RB position.
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:35 PM   #89
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Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

Woah, Walter Payton?
I remember Walter Payton.
That self given comparison is gonna rub some of the older fellas the wrong way.
Nothing against the Morris, don't know him from Joe on the street.
And I understand feeling confident, and he might really feel he is similar to Walter Payton.
But, if you have an avenue, please pass this along from an idiot fan on an interent forum:
comparing yourself to Walter Payton is something you think not say
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:39 PM   #90
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Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?

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...[Royster] can plow people over, let alone has GREAT cuts.

Helu is nice as well, very similar, but for some reason I feel he runs out of steam much much faster than Royster does, and he can't take the hits nearly as well (not saying he goes down easy because he doesn't).
Hmmmnnn, never saw Royster as a plow people over type at all.

Couple of questions to understand your viewpoint:

When you say runs out of stem you mean over the course of a game or during a long run?

What do mean by 'taking hits'?
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