Warpath  

Home | Forums | Salary Cap Info | Shop | Donate | Stay Connected




Go Back   Warpath > Redskins Forums > Redskins Locker Room


Full Blown Mutiny

Redskins Locker Room


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-23-2005, 03:17 PM   #16
Franchise Player
 
Sheriff Gonna Getcha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Age: 35
Posts: 8,317
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

What I have beef with is the double standard that is applied to players and NFL teams. If a team signed a contract and committed to a guy and the team cuts him, so be it. But if a player wants to back out of a deal, he's a prick.

Perhaps I'm too "pro-labor." I love the team, but the team is made up of players. So, while I want what is best for the team, I'm not going to say F-U to a guy who wants out of a deal....teams back out of deals all the time.
Sheriff Gonna Getcha is offline   Reply With Quote

Advertisements
Old 02-23-2005, 03:23 PM   #17
Robert Griffin III
 
Monksdown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Leesburg, VA
Age: 33
Posts: 1,495
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

I disagree with you on the status of players in the league. And I think that a contract doesnt mean that the players deserve equality with the owner. The contract just provides some protection for the players, which they are entitled to. Sports are most definitely a business, and why dont you tell me who the employees are?

Dan Snyder paid how much for the Redskins?
__________________
Robert Griffin III
Monksdown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2005, 03:30 PM   #18
Puppy Kicker
 
Daseal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Arlington, Virginia
Age: 31
Posts: 8,220
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Good poitns Ramseyfan - When Coles signed that major deal he expected to be THE man on offense. He came into a Spurrier throw first, throw second, throw third, fake punt throw 4th offense. This is what Coles was looking forward to! He wanted to the be corner stone of the offense. A guy that can take the game and be exciting - and when healthy he is that guy. Now he's stuck in one of THE WORST passing offenses in the NFL, and get's very few looks per game let alone receptions.

I always hear "Gibbs is master at adaptation" Gibbs will turn it around. The problem I've seen - is in 16 games we saw very little evolution as far as our offense was concerned. It took 8 weeks to change from an absolutely miserable quarterback who not a single other person could defend by week 3, a handcuffed offense who preached turnovers to the point of implosion, a gameplan that was so easily foliled by defensive juggernauts as the Browns that they told Wilbon things in the locker rooms that made skins-fans cringe. The offense rarely put any more than two receivers out - teams DIDN'T respect our passing game, and we did NOTHING all year to change that. We lost some games simply because Gibbs was too afraid to not only hold on to the lead - but extend it. You can't sit on a 3, 6, or 7 point lead in todays NFL with a quarter to go. Just doesn't work.

I'm sorry - I've seen no sign of improvement from the skins offense thus far, and Coles being mad about his role in the upcoming offense scares me even more. If both of our receivers want out of dodge - that doesn't bring good things for our passing game.
Daseal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2005, 03:33 PM   #19
Franchise Player
 
Sheriff Gonna Getcha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Age: 35
Posts: 8,317
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

I'm not sure how anyone could argue that Snyder is the employee and the players are management. The management is rarely, if ever, attacked for backing out of a deal and cutting a player but the players get grilled for backing out of a deal (Coles has NEVER said he wouldn't play out his contract, just that he would prefer to leave).

I don't contend that the contracts should never be broken. What I am saying is that we should apply a single standard and criticize/praise a front office or a player for backing out of a deal.

Again, Coles never said he would hold out unless he is traded. He has simply said that he would prefer to be elsewhere, something Gibbs asked his players to tell him.
Sheriff Gonna Getcha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2005, 03:34 PM   #20
Fight for old DC!
 
Redskins_P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Falls Church, VA
Age: 36
Posts: 4,086
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Coles was never crazy about the Gibbs hire. I remember when they interviewed him at the Pro Bowl and they asked him how he felt about being coached by a HOFamer. From what I remember Coles said something like this "I mean thats great and all, but he likes to run the ball alot".

From the beginning Coles wasn't excited about Gibbs. Now everything is unfolding.
Redskins_P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2005, 03:37 PM   #21
Uncle Phil
 
SmootSmack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 44,741
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daseal
Good poitns Ramseyfan - When Coles signed that major deal he expected to be THE man on offense. He came into a Spurrier throw first, throw second, throw third, fake punt throw 4th offense. This is what Coles was looking forward to! He wanted to the be corner stone of the offense. A guy that can take the game and be exciting - and when healthy he is that guy. Now he's stuck in one of THE WORST passing offenses in the NFL, and get's very few looks per game let alone receptions.

I always hear "Gibbs is master at adaptation" Gibbs will turn it around. The problem I've seen - is in 16 games we saw very little evolution as far as our offense was concerned. It took 8 weeks to change from an absolutely miserable quarterback who not a single other person could defend by week 3, a handcuffed offense who preached turnovers to the point of implosion, a gameplan that was so easily foliled by defensive juggernauts as the Browns that they told Wilbon things in the locker rooms that made skins-fans cringe. The offense rarely put any more than two receivers out - teams DIDN'T respect our passing game, and we did NOTHING all year to change that. We lost some games simply because Gibbs was too afraid to not only hold on to the lead - but extend it. You can't sit on a 3, 6, or 7 point lead in todays NFL with a quarter to go. Just doesn't work.

I'm sorry - I've seen no sign of improvement from the skins offense thus far, and Coles being mad about his role in the upcoming offense scares me even more. If both of our receivers want out of dodge - that doesn't bring good things for our passing game.

Ramseyfan does make a good point about the double standard

As for our receivers "wanting out of dodge"-maybe, just maybe, Gibbs and co. want them out as well. Maybe they think Gardner and Coles are not necessarily the receivers we need to open up the offense.
__________________
You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You
SmootSmack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2005, 03:37 PM   #22
Robert Griffin III
 
Monksdown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Leesburg, VA
Age: 33
Posts: 1,495
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

I dont agree. The player's are "hired" to do a job. If they for some reason fail to execute that job to the satisfaction of the "boss" then they can and should be let go. If the player wants to leave, and the boss doesnt exactly want that player to leave, then the player in question is a "quitter".

This is fun Ramseyfan, I'm willing to bet that you are a democrat.
__________________
Robert Griffin III
Monksdown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2005, 03:49 PM   #23
Camp Scrub
 
NCSkinfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 11
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

I can see where LC is coming from, I wouldn't want to be him right now.Gibbs is a great coach, but didn't coach all that great this year.

Regarding the double standard, remember that either way the player leaves prior to end of contract that the team is still paying the player and taking the cap hit. Jerimiah Trotter is an example. Even if you want to call the team a quitter in his case, he could have sat on the couch and watched the games making money with what we paid him this year and will pay him next year. Say what you want but the team loses these battles every time.
NCSkinfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2005, 04:04 PM   #24
Franchise Player
 
Sheriff Gonna Getcha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Age: 35
Posts: 8,317
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monksdown
I dont agree. The player's are "hired" to do a job. If they for some reason fail to execute that job to the satisfaction of the "boss" then they can and should be let go. If the player wants to leave, and the boss doesnt exactly want that player to leave, then the player in question is a "quitter".

This is fun Ramseyfan, I'm willing to bet that you are a democrat.
A very conservative democrat who knows how bad labor unions can be (see, Britain circa 1985) AND how bad a lack of unions can be (see, U.S. circa 1910).

I'm somewhat familiar with contract law and I beg to differ with your interpretation of the meaning of a contract. You seem to think that contracts are only meaningful/binding so long as they benefit the employer (Snyder). So, if a player outperforms his contract, tough sh-t he's bound by his word. Conversely, if a player underperforms, hit the road and don't the door hit your a-s on the way out because the owner's word don't mean jack.
Sheriff Gonna Getcha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2005, 04:12 PM   #25
Playmaker
 
Longtimefan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Germantown, Md.
Posts: 4,832
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Speaking of honoring, contracts: Don't forget we have another young man on our team who had a simular situation in Denver,balked at his already existing contract and got 50 mil. from Mr. Dan. What is it to make me think that at some point in time he won't do th same thing to Mr. Dan?

Management does not honor the contracts they sign players too, so in reality, why should we expect the players to be so honorable? Every Year someone has to restructure or face being cut. Forget these "Free Agents" and build a "Team" through the draft and less fancy spending. Oh! and dont forget a Salry-Cap for each position on offense and defense, that way we no longer can be hijacked each year by these "Greedy" already overpaid players who don't care about loyalty or any particular team, they're just in it for the money. Anytime a player leaves a winning orginization for a looser just for a few dollars more, that sort of tells you what our beloved sport is coming too.

Hail! Redskins "Free Agents" on the Warpath
Longtimefan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2005, 04:18 PM   #26
Robert Griffin III
 
Monksdown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Leesburg, VA
Age: 33
Posts: 1,495
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramseyfan
A very conservative democrat who knows how bad labor unions can be (see, Britain circa 1985) AND how bad a lack of unions can be (see, U.S. circa 1910).

I'm somewhat familiar with contract law and I beg to differ with your interpretation of the meaning of a contract. You seem to think that contracts are only meaningful/binding so long as they benefit the employer (Snyder). So, if a player outperforms his contract, tough sh-t he's bound by his word. Conversely, if a player underperforms, hit the road and don't the door hit your a-s on the way out because the owner's word don't mean jack.
I am a moderate republican. And while I am not an attorney, Im familiar with a different type of contract law than this completely. I conduct real estate settlements. I admit that i get frustrated when labor dictates to management. Do you feel that Lav is right in demanding that he not give any bonus back if he is traded?
__________________
Robert Griffin III
Monksdown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2005, 04:20 PM   #27
‎\m/
 
Mattyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Age: 41
Posts: 81,987
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

I can understand Coles' frustrations, but I really don't understand his decision making in this situation.

He's well paid, he's caught over 170 passes in his two seasons here, and he would stand to receive just as much work next season if not more especially with the departure of Gardner. Dude caught 90 balls this year, don't tell me he doesn't get enough work. And if anyone thinks for a second we're going to see the same offense again next year you're seriously smoking something. Gibbs knows the offense was what held the team back this year, do you really think he's not going to make any changes?

Back on Coles, like I said before, what happens when he goes somewhere else and gets frustrated? Will he look to back out of another deal with someone else?
__________________
Support The Warpath! | Warpath Shop
Mattyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2005, 04:26 PM   #28
‎\m/
 
Mattyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Age: 41
Posts: 81,987
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

We could argue all day about contracts and what they mean.

Fact is players getting cut is a part of life in the NFL, the players understand when they sign a contract nothing is guaranteed except the bonus. They can be cut anytime.

There's nothing wrong with a player wanting to be traded, but there's no way it's possible unless he gives his bonus back to lessen the cap hit. Otherwise he can just suck it up and be a Redskin whether he likes it or not.

Coles just doesn't have a firm grip on reality if he thinks the Redskins can take a $9M cap hit for trading him, or releasing him outright and getting nothing in return.
__________________
Support The Warpath! | Warpath Shop
Mattyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2005, 04:48 PM   #29
F the Shannys

 
CrazyCanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,885
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Some good points in here.

I will disagree with the double-standard issue. These are the rules as set in the CBA. The CBA is an agreement made between the owners and the players' union, so the players understood the ramifications and agreed to it.

So I do disagree with Coles' decision and I don't really sympathize with him. When he signed his Skins deal he knew the following:

- He was signed for 7 years and expected to play every year unless the team cut or traded him.
- He knew his yearly salaries would never be guaranteed and he could always be cut by his employer.
- In exchange for this lack of security, the Skins agreed to pay Coles a $13M signing bonus up front. This gives Coles cash in his pocket in case he does get cut. Also with the cap rules, when there is a big signing bonus, it comes with its own "implied" security. We see that now with Coles. Even if the Skins want to cut him they can't really cuz of the deadcap.

He was fine with all this, but now he's changed his tune. If he was so worried about losing Spurrier he should have put a stipulation in his contract. Did he expect Spurrier to be here for a full 7 years? I doubt it. So I guess his attitude was - I'll take this deal (and the money) now, and if they ever change coaches on me I'll just whine and demand to be released.

I don't really sympathize with the "unhappy NFL player". They have as many rights as we regular workers do.
Is my salary guaranteed every year? No.
Can I be cut at any time? Yes.
Did I get a signing bonus? No.
If I tell my boss I'm unhappy and want to be transferred to another company (at a steep cost to him), do you think he'll oblige? No.

So cry me a river Lav. I think we should keep you and you can sit next to Brunell on the bench all year and count your money.
CrazyCanuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2005, 05:16 PM   #30
Franchise Player
 
Sheriff Gonna Getcha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Age: 35
Posts: 8,317
Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Crazy Canuck,

First, I didn't mean to sound off on a legal debate. What I've been talking about is one's word. Has Coles broken his word? No. Coles has supposedly said he'd play ball for the 'Skins if he wasn't released or traded; he's willing to play out his deal (at least for now). There has been NO talk (yet) of any holdout.

Does that mean he has to be 100% happy with his current situation? No. Gibbs supposedly told the players that anyone who would prefer to be elsewhere should tell him. Gardner and Coles approached Gibbs and said they'd prefer to be elsewhere. So, I don't see how Coles is being a punk for being honest.

Second, as you correctly point out, Coles was given a large signing bonus as security. But now, the team apparently wants back the signing bonus (or a portion thereof). I don't think on the one hand you can honestly say that he accepted the CBA and should be held to it, but he should ALSO give back the signing bonus (if you in fact believe that).

Third, you said he whined and demanded to be released. Thus far, I haven't heard a peep out of Coles (for better or worse). He might have whined to the coaching staff, but I don't have a problem with that. As for demanding a release, I haven't heard any such demand. He was asked if he wanted to leave and he said yes.

Third, I don't think your comparison of NFL players and the rest of us working folks is appropriate. I'm not an actor, singer, or ball player and I never will be (that is until Snyder and Gibbs come to their senses). But, if you choose to bring up that analogy, I think the following is a good illustration of Coles' situation.

I get hired by a law firm and am given a signing bonus to work for a firm for 6 years. The first year is pretty good - while we lost a lot of cases, I am well compensated, highly appreciated, make lots of great friends, get a lot of substantive and interesting work, and I love my boss.

The following year, the boss I loved quits, a new boss comes into the office who doesn't seem to appreciate me as much, is having me get his coffee instead of writing briefs for the US Supreme Court, I get demolished in a trial because my law firm is run so horribly, the employee roster resembles a revolving door, some of my best friends are leaving the firm, and although I have a contract to work for the firm for five more years, the managing partner tells me anyone who wants to leave can do so. So I raise my hand and say I want to leave. Am I a bastard for doing that? I don't think so.
Sheriff Gonna Getcha is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site is not officially affiliated with the Washington Redskins or the NFL.
Page generated in 0.33321 seconds with 9 queries

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25