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Old 02-23-2005, 05:16 PM   #31
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

i do'nt understand his problem either.he is the feature receiver in the redskins offense is'nt he?WTF is with all these rich ass professionals????????????????????????????????????? ?
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Old 02-23-2005, 05:22 PM   #32
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monksdown
I am a moderate republican. And while I am not an attorney, Im familiar with a different type of contract law than this completely. I conduct real estate settlements. I admit that i get frustrated when labor dictates to management. Do you feel that Lav is right in demanding that he not give any bonus back if he is traded?
I think there's reason to be frustrated with both labor and management at times - it all depends on the situation.

Unless Coles is demanding (as opposed to requesting) that he be traded or released, I don't see why he should have to give it back. If the team chooses not to release/trade him because of the accelerated signing bonus, he needs to realize that he can get his wish by giving the money back. Otherwise, he should play out his contract.

I'd only criticize Coles if he started bitching to the press, held out, or demanded a trade/release while simultaneously holding onto all of his signing bonus.
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Old 02-23-2005, 05:50 PM   #33
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

The only person who I disagree with, or right now am pissed off at; is Coles. That whole situation to me is bullcrap.

Perice, Smoot, have played out their contracts. They have every right in my mind to test the open market, they both are still on small salary deals (in NFL terms); so if they wanna test the market, I dont blame them.
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Old 02-23-2005, 06:53 PM   #34
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Ramseyfan,

You make a lot of good points.

I definitely agree that Coles has handled this extremely well. The fact that everyone was shocked is a testament to Coles play on the field this year. He gave 100% and kept his mouth shut. He also offered to give back a significant amount of money which is a stand-up move. Lastly, he kept everything internal and didn't use the press to lobby his case.

So I'm not trying to judge the man's decision, even if I disagree with it. But I don't feel bad for Coles and I think the Skins must think of their own interests first, even if that means making Lav honor his contract. I'm still hoping htis whole thing can be worked out.
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Old 02-23-2005, 07:16 PM   #35
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCanuck
Some good points in here.

I don't really sympathize with the "unhappy NFL player". They have as many rights as we regular workers do.
Is my salary guaranteed every year? No.
Can I be cut at any time? Yes.
Did I get a signing bonus? No.
If I tell my boss I'm unhappy and want to be transferred to another company (at a steep cost to him), do you think he'll oblige? No.

So cry me a river Lav. I think we should keep you and you can sit next to Brunell on the bench all year and count your money.
I agree CrazyCanuck........I wonder how the players are going to feel when the leave the NFL and are working in the REAL WORLD. Perhaps I'm spoiled a bit, I'm a Spurs fan when you hear that David Robinson took a fraction of what he could've made in the open market, and re-signed at a reasonible salary to enable the team to sign other players to improve the team. Sean Elliott could've commanded a huge salary also, but like he said, 5 or 6 milliion is a heck of a lot of money, you don't really need more money, it just goes to taxes anyway. And then he gives $2 million back so the Spurs could build a new practice facility. Tim Duncan signed a reasonable salary to stay with the team, and when contract negoitations were getting tough with Point Guard Tony Parker and Spurs Management , Tim offered to pay the $2 milliion dififference that Tony Parker and Management were quibbling over, in order to re-sign "his" point guard. Bruce Bowen accepted a rather low contract as well just to be able to re-sign with a GREAT winning organization. Now, the NBA is different than the NFL, but I just absolutely LOVE the attitude of the former and current Spurs players, these are the REDSKIN KINDA GUYS Joe Gibbs is looking for to wear the Redskins uniform..............
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Old 02-23-2005, 07:37 PM   #36
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

From what I read Coles and Gibbs had 2 meetings...I wasn't there, but probably Coles asked about the running game and if Portis was going to be the main focus of the offense, Gibbs probably said YES, and Coles was probably envisioning a more vertical passing game.....BUT if you look at the Vikings game when Gibbs FINALLY did open it up and did throw longer passes, and that is what I was picturing the Redskin offense to look like next year.......The receivers were still a vital part of the offense in that Viking game.........I'm frustrated over Coles impatience he should at least give Gibbs more than a year, especially when Gibbs needed time to re-adjust to the "new" NFL himself. If Coles allowed time for Gibbs to pick up a few more pieces for the offense, ....(a healthy Jansen and a new receiver to replace Gardner, and a new center and guard) Coles may have been happy with the offense if he waited just another year to see what Gibbs did and see if the offense improved To me Coles is being a bit of a crybaby and one of the "IT'S ALL ABOUT ME" players. Coles can leave....other receivers can be found......but I'm angry that he just puts deeper into salary cap hell!!! The Steelers have always been a tad on the cheap side, but they manage to find replacements just as good.........Williams seems to have done that with the defense when players went down, others came in and performed admirably, perhaps we can get lucky with the offense.
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Old 02-23-2005, 08:39 PM   #37
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Monk,

I completely agree that players who take pay cuts for the team are great, fantastic team players. I'd like to have a lot of those types of players.

However, money doesn't seem to be the real issue right now. It appears that Coles is more concerned about how he is being (mis)used.

I personally am very ambitious, eager to show what I can do, and want to work at a law firm that gives the opportunity to exploit and build upon my talents. So, I sympathize with Coles. I know he feels that he isn't be used properly - and I think many people agree with that assessment. He's a big-play, deep-threat wideout, but he was being used essentially as a possession receiver/extension of the running game. There are running backs catching balls in the flats who had better ypc than Coles.

So, while I'd prefer Coles to be happy even if he was sitting on the bench, I understand where he's coming from.
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Old 02-23-2005, 08:45 PM   #38
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramseyfan
Monk,

I completely agree that players who take pay cuts for the team are great, fantastic team players. I'd like to have a lot of those types of players.

However, money doesn't seem to be the real issue right now. It appears that Coles is more concerned about how he is being (mis)used.

I personally am very ambitious, eager to show what I can do, and want to work at a law firm that gives the opportunity to exploit and build upon my talents. So, I sympathize with Coles. I know he feels that he isn't be used properly - and I think many people agree with that assessment. He's a big-play, deep-threat wideout, but he was being used essentially as a possession receiver/extension of the running game. There are running backs catching balls in the flats who had better ypc than Coles.

So, while I'd prefer Coles to be happy even if he was sitting on the bench, I understand where he's coming from.
But what I'm reading is Coles won't even restructure his salary to facilitate a trade. If I was working for a company that I hated, and wanted to go work for another company, I would do anything I could to make that deal happen knowing how miserable I was working for my present company. But Coles IS looking at the money thing. If he hated Gibbs system and said it was a mismatch, yet was willing to restructure to get a deal done, I'd respect that, but Coles wants to have his cake and eat it too!!! We are going to take a $9 million cap hit......please read the topic COLE WONT RESTRUCTURE....it's about the money...
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Old 02-23-2005, 08:54 PM   #39
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The Core Group

Hello guys,

Whenever asked about free agency and this off season, Joe reminds us time and time again that he is most concerned with maintaining his core group of guys. Whenever I have heard him respond in this way, I always wondered, who does he mean?

I think that there is a direct correlation between his core group philosophy and the gentleman that are actively trying to re-structure their contracts for the team. The team must view these individuals as keepers as I assume that by restructuring we are extending our deals with them.

So have a close look at the guys that re-structure, they are our core.
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Old 02-23-2005, 08:55 PM   #40
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Monk,

As I said in an earlier post, I agree Coles can't have his cake and eat it too. If he demands a trade/release, he ought to give back some of his signing bonus. If he would like to leave, but won't hold out if he isn't traded or cut, then I don't have any beef with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramseyfan
I'd only criticize Coles if he started bitching to the press, held out, or demanded a trade/release while simultaneously holding onto all of his signing bonus.
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Old 02-23-2005, 08:58 PM   #41
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Im a different monk, so forgive my interruption. But I would hate not to get anything for him. I think trading him is the only realistic option for us. Your thoughts?
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Old 02-23-2005, 09:00 PM   #42
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

JWSleep:

Damn! If you narrow down the suspects to people at Redskin Park who may have been pissed as something Danny Boy did or said, you have probably included every hominid there - except his butt-boy, Vinny.


Monksdown:

Danny Boy paid $800M for the team and the stadium. However, he has not endeared himself to very many people inside the organization or in the league since then; other owners tolerate him because he makes a ton of money and that adds value to their franchises, but he isn't "best buds" with any of them. And, he treats players wonderfully just as they are signed, but after that... Even $800M does not allow you to be an arrogant tyrant with your organization - unless you want people to jump ship of course.


NCSkinfan:

The team does NOT lose every time there is a team/player conflict. Now when the team has overpaid for a player and given them a signing bonus that is nowhere near justified, then the team always loses. But the Eagles did not lose when they let Trotter go; they still won the Division and went ot the NFC championship game for both years that Trotter was gone. Then they resigned Trotter to a contract that was not only less than what he was asking for, it was less than half of what he had been making in Philly before he left town. So, how did they lose out there? The Skins lost out because they paid Trotter far more than he was worth then or is worth now or will ever be worth. And who did that???


Longtimefan:

In addition to the fact that the way we got Portis here was by his griping about his contract situation in Denver, please recall that Portis has already done a bit of griping about Joe Gibbs in his single year here. So, it is not impossible that Portis may be "disgruntled" sometime next season and asking out. Will that change his status here from a "warrior" to a "punk"?


Matty:

I don't think Coles relishes the amount of blocking he has to do on running plays in this offense. Yes he caught a bunch of balls in the last coupla years, but in the OBC offense, he was running a pattern when he wasn't getting the ball thrown to him. Now he's blocking down - sometimes on a linebacker - and I think he prefers the other kind of offense. I am NOT questioning his courage here. I'm saying he has a preference and blocking a guy who weighs about 80 pounds more than he does is not his preference.


monk81:

I think that the Skins threw deep on the Vikings because the Vikings defense was so vulnerable. I doubt that was due to some epiphany on the part of the offensive playcallers.
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Old 02-23-2005, 09:22 PM   #43
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon
monk81:

I think that the Skins threw deep on the Vikings because the Vikings defense was so vulnerable. I doubt that was due to some epiphany on the part of the offensive playcallers.

But Sportscurmudgeon.........there were other teams whose defense was vunerable and Gibbs DIDN'T throw deep.........we lost some close games, we might've won if we threw the ball down the field. ..remember,
people complained about how predictible the plays were..........players on other teams laughed about it........It wasn't just about the lousy Viking defense,in the last game the plays were diversified, Gibbs opened it up!...........
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Old 02-23-2005, 09:49 PM   #44
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramseyfan
Wow! I can't believe how quickly people have turned against Smoot, Pierce, Samuels, and Coles. All those guys were praised and loved by so many 'Skins fans.

Can anyone honestly blame Coles for feeling frustrated? He's played his ass off for a team that has won 11 of 32 games since he's been here, he was totally misused last season as a possession reciever, and the wide receiving corps was a patsy for our troubles in 2004. I don't blame him for wanting to move on.

As for Pierce and Smoot, can anyone honestly say they wouldn't try to get the most money they could. If you had the opportunity to earn several million dollars more by playing for another team, wouldn't you try to hit free agency? Neither of these guys are from D.C., they don't have any previous connection to the team, and they know they're about to hit the lottery. I can't say that we should be pissed at them for wanting to get the most money they can. Any player (or person) who says he doesn't care about money is crazy or a liar.
Honestly if I were one of these guys I wouldnt give a damn how much money I made, as long as I was making a living playing football. The one job in the world that to this day I still wish that I could have. My attention would be on winning games as opposed to how many more millions I can get in a year, or how many catches, or how many yards. But I am not one of these players nor will I ever be.
I would say that those overpayed palyers should take some time out to think about the people who don't make as much money. Or even contemplate how much other people will (no matter how bad the team is)give almost anything just to be given the opportunity to play the game professionally. But, that is probly too much to ask. They have already walked in our shoes once and they are not comming back. Greed has taken over, and the team that gave you your first shot at the pros isnt good enough anymore. You have proved your worth, and you are going to get yours no matter what.
The one thing that I am gratefuly for is that our United States Service Men and Women do not often trade teams as often just because someone is flashing dollar signs in there faces. I am also glad tht they do not have greedy agents.
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Old 02-23-2005, 10:24 PM   #45
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Re: Full Blown Mutiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattyk72
I can understand Coles' frustrations, but I really don't understand his decision making in this situation.

He's well paid, he's caught over 170 passes in his two seasons here, and he would stand to receive just as much work next season if not more especially with the departure of Gardner. Dude caught 90 balls this year, don't tell me he doesn't get enough work. And if anyone thinks for a second we're going to see the same offense again next year you're seriously smoking something. Gibbs knows the offense was what held the team back this year, do you really think he's not going to make any changes?

Back on Coles, like I said before, what happens when he goes somewhere else and gets frustrated? Will he look to back out of another deal with someone else?
This is exactly what I'm saying...

I mean catching 90 balls and you're unhappy with the offense? I said this in another post and I'll say it again.

Can your feet just not cut it anymore Coles?!?

I mean 90 freakin' catches!! Not to mention the couple dozen or so thrown to him by limp-wristed bitch-ass Mark Brunell. If he's not happy with that type of "look" his way during a game, how the hell else is he going to be happy??
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