Hey Ho, Haslett has to go! (or maybe not)

Deivybaby · 10-31-2012, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CultBrennan59

look, our defense last year wasn't great (13th) but it was good enough to get you to the playoffs, should we of gotten there; or if we had had this offense last year.

The problem with this years defense is

- Secondary
- Injuries
- Depth
- Motivation
- Coaching

Our secondary, even when we were healthy was very poor. Week one we got pressure on Brees. A push up the middle, outside containment and pressure from our OLBs. But our secondary started to break down come 3rd quarter time. Then of course, next game we had....

...Injuries. Orakpo like I said is showing how valuable he was to this team for those (like myself) who thought that we could win with Kerrigan and Rob Jackson. Carriker, as I mentioned before was that guy who would push the pocket right up in the QBs face. That was another big loss, and hurt Orakpo, because Orakpo could go after the QB and over pursue and the QB could escape either from outside the pocket or up the middle.

Depth is another concern. Last year--lets use Barry Cofield for this example--Cofield would go in on 1st and 2nd down and flop between series as to whether or not he would come out or stay in on 3rd down. We would always leave Bowen out there. Sometimes we'd leave either Carriker out there or Cofield or Neild. Well, this year we have no Carriker and no Neild, so that more time for Cofields big body to get over worked or for the likes of Kedric Golston, an inexperienced and still-recovering Jarvis Jenkins, and Doug Worthington. Those guys are all clearly a step down from the other guys I just mentioned. Come this offseason, we need to draft some 3-4 DT/DEs, because Golston and Worthington aren't getting pressure or doing as good a job as Carriker and Neild were. (Also theres Baker who is strictly a run stuffing NT, not a pass rusher (Neild could do both--oh and Neild might go through the same thing Jarvis is going through this year coming off a torn ACL...hell even Carriker could) . Again DRAFT DEPTH AT DL!!!!

Motivation is the last thing. Answer me this, how many 300+ lb guys are going to be motivated to go after smart or athletic or both, QBs who are just ripping apart their secondary. Theres no motivation to try to get to a QB in less than 2 seconds when the QB is doing quick passes against a crap secondary that we have. All the DL are probably thinking "Whats the point with the secondary we have!?!?" This is also where Coaching comes in...

...the players aren't responding well to Haslett and Haslett for the past 3 years has made some pretty dumb calls and believed in one thing on defense and decided to keep the game plan the same (having the defense stay the same after Ponder left and Joe Webb went in; Not adjusting to Amendola catching everything on us). I see no way Haslett returns. If we upgrade our coach, it makes our defense already 4-7 spots better just like that.

Bottom line, as soon as that secondary gets better and we get depth for the future, for all of our Defense, we'll be a drastically improved defense that, with our offense will be good enough to get us far in the playoffs. And theres no point of just switching to a 4-3, because we've spent all this money and all these seasons buying and drafting all these 3-4 players.

--fun fact; right now 6 of the 10 Top 10 defenses are a 3-4. And as for the 10 worst defenses in the NFL right now, 8 of them are 4-3 defenses with only Us and Baltimore as the 2 3-4s in the bottom 10 defenses..--

If you really think our defense was good last ywar your delusional.and didnt watch all of the games. We let all the teams thar had a good offense destroy us we onlt took advantage of the rams and surprise giants and one good mnf dallas game. Other than that it was not pretty or good .

We can have a secondary which will help but our pass rush is not good even with orakpo and carriker we domt have a 3-4 defenase. Notice the steelers and ravens and texans they have the right guys and coordinators we sont have the right staff either ive read we have a 4-3 staff for the 3-4.

Our D wasnt good last year at all imo i mean it was better with landry and oj but not really good.

Lets go back to the 4-3 and just try it out all of our players other than bowen have 4-3 .

Deivybaby · 10-31-2012, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKINS73

The Patriots switched from a 3-4 to a 4-3 last year but had problems adjusting to it; however, this year Belichick tweaked their 4-3. He now uses two large DT with hybrid DE/LBs in the front 7 (3-4 type of personnel). This gives them speed to contain outside rushers and puts them in a better position against short and screen passes. It also allows flexibility to switch back and forth between a 3-4 and 4-3. Teams don't know what to prepare for week after week. The Pats went from being ranked 31st in yards per play in 2011 to 8th in 2012. I'm not saying we should switch to a 4-3. What I am saying is our defense needs to become more innovative. Clearly what we're doing now isn't working. There's no where to go but up when you're ranked dead last.

Agreed.

SKINS73 · 10-31-2012, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44ever

Yep! History proves that this will be the game that puts Cams game back on track. We will be the team to give him back the name "SuperCam". Some of you know what Im talking about. Just watch and see...

Sadly I agree. I don't know for sure, but I think every team we've played this year has had a receive go over 100 yards in receptions. That said, I think RG3 has a good chance to put up some impressive numbers of his own.

KI Skins Fan · 10-31-2012, 10:11 AM

The primary problem with our defense right now is the lack of an effective pass rush. Part of the pass rush problem is due to injury. Most significantly, the injury to Brian Orakpo.

Another part of the pass rush problem is due to the utter lack of aggressiveness and creativity by Jim Haslett. In the Pttsburgh game Haslett did call one cover zero defense that I recall which resulted in forcing the Steelers into a field goal attempt. But there have also been too many weak three man rushes to suit me.

In today's NFL, good pass coverage alone just isn't going to get the job done on defense - even for teams that have excellent secondaries. Teams like the Skins that have little pass rush and a poor secondary are sure to get toasted week after week.

Right now, the only alternative for the Skins is to get very aggressive and creative with blitz packages and upset the timing of the offense. It may be risky, but it's all we've got. If Haslett isn't up to the task of finding a way to get more pressure on opposing QB's with the personnel he has now, then he deserves to be fired.

53Fan · 10-31-2012, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

It's just wrong to say no fans missed Shanahan. I will say that people trusted Bowlen a lot more than anyone trusted Snyder, and so there was acceptance of his decision. I have family and friends in Colo, having lived and worked in Colo Springs for about 8 years in the late 1990's early 2000's and Shanahan's work on the offense was always respected. Sadly, his failings are about what we see now, an inability to have a strong defense, and consistent DC changes. In the throngs of the Josh McDaniels fiasco there was definitely a questioning of Shanahan's firing, but like anything in football, winning cures fans ills, and they latched on to Tebow, and now Peyton is certainly leading them well.

This is what I've been saying about Mike and his history proves it out. I think he's a good OC. Our o-line is playing better than expected...we have a rookie RB tearing up the league and we're scoring points out the ying yang. But...like Norv imo...being a good OC doesn't always make you a good HC. Why does hls teams always have trouble with becoming good on defense? It's an honest question. It was the same thing in Denver. Why? I read an article...Rich Campbell I think???...that was talking about the zero blitz and the author said to expect to see alot of it because Shanahan likes it. How much input does Mike have on defensive calls and is that why hls defenses are usually not very good and he goes through so many DC's? Do you know if he's more hands on his defenses than other HC's Smoot? I'm really just trying to figure out why this is so often the case with Mike. The Pats and Giants don't ALWAYS have great defenses but often they do. Seems like Mike never does.

Mattyk · 10-31-2012, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 53Fan

This is what I've been saying about Mike and his history proves it out. I think he's a good OC. Our o-line is playing better than expected...we have a rookie RB tearing up the league and we're scoring points out the ying yang. But...like Norv imo...being a good OC doesn't always make you a good HC. Why does hls teams always have trouble with becoming good on defense? It's an honest question. It was the same thing in Denver. Why? I read an article...Rich Campbell I think???...that was talking about the zero blitz and the author said to expect to see alot of it because Shanahan likes it. How much input does Mike have on defensive calls and is that why hls defenses are usually not very good and he goes through so many DC's? Do you know if he's more hands on his defenses than other HC's Smoot? I'm really just trying to figure out why this is so often the case with Mike. The Pats and Giants don't ALWAYS have great defenses but often they do. Seems like Mike never does.

Check his rankings. I bet you'll be surprised.

Denver Broncos Team Encyclopedia - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Contrary to popular opinion, the Broncos didn't win all because of Elway.

They had a top 10 D 7 times under him.

skinsfaninok · 10-31-2012, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Check his rankings. I bet you'll be surprised.

Denver Broncos Team Encyclopedia - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Contrary to popular opinion, the Broncos didn't win all because of Elway.

They had a top 10 D 7 times under him.

Stats don't lie

Monkeydad · 10-31-2012, 10:59 AM

Well you have to look at the whole D.

We're shutting down the run, we're causing a ton of turnovers...but that secondary is getting torched. I can't blame Haslett for the personnel he was given to work with, which at the safety position is just complete garbage. Even this season, our CBs are playing well for the majority of the games but the secondary, mainly the safeties are giving up multiple HUGE pass plays every game. They can't be consistent for the whole game.

That's not a coaching issue, that's a personnel issue. Maybe Allen and Shanahan actually had confidence in the guys they brought in (Jackson, Meriweather, Williams, Minnifield)...or maybe this is what the cap penalty dealt us in 2012. We had a ton of positions to address in the offseason and weren't able to hit all of them with the money we had to work with.

I'm leaning towards keeping Haslett but also making the #1 priority this offseason to re-make the secondary. Hit it hard in the draft AND free agency and give Haslett so much talent to work with that if he does fail again, it's clearly all on him. We need to go after the best players available. No more trying to piece a secondary together. Wilson can stay, he's having a great year. Hall...bring someone in and make him work for his paycheck, or maybe try him at safety or nickel corner. Safety...none of the current starters should be starters.

Bubba305-ST21- · 10-31-2012, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monkeydad

Well you have to look at the whole D.

We're shutting down the run, we're causing a ton of turnovers...but that secondary is getting torched. I can't blame Haslett for the personnel he was given to work with, which at the safety position is just complete garbage. Even this season, our CBs are playing well for the majority of the games but the secondary, mainly the safeties are giving up multiple HUGE pass plays every game. They can't be consistent for the whole game.

That's not a coaching issue, that's a personnel issue. Maybe Allen and Shanahan actually had confidence in the guys they brought in (Jackson, Meriweather, Williams, Minnifield)...or maybe this is what the cap penalty dealt us in 2012. We had a ton of positions to address in the offseason and weren't able to hit all of them with the money we had to work with.

I'm leaning towards keeping Haslett but also making the #1 priority this offseason to re-make the secondary. Hit it hard in the draft AND free agency and give Haslett so much talent to work with that if he does fail again, it's clearly all on him. We need to go after the best players available. No more trying to piece a secondary together. Wilson can stay, he's having a great year. Hall...bring someone in and make him work for his paycheck, or maybe try him at safety or nickel corner. Safety...none of the current starters should be starters.

I agree 200%, but I do sometimes wonder about Haslett idkkkk

That Guy · 10-31-2012, 11:35 AM

i'd have to say our "solid" run D has a lot more to do with other teams seeing a weak secondary and choosing to make it explode on sundays.

we couldn't get the steelers to stop running the ball and eating clock and we can't stop anyone from passing. it's pretty tragic.

CultBrennan59 · 10-31-2012, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deivybaby

If you really think our defense was good last ywar your delusional.and didnt watch all of the games. We let all the teams thar had a good offense destroy us we onlt took advantage of the rams and surprise giants and one good mnf dallas game. Other than that it was not pretty or good .

We can have a secondary which will help but our pass rush is not good even with orakpo and carriker we domt have a 3-4 defenase. Notice the steelers and ravens and texans they have the right guys and coordinators we sont have the right staff either ive read we have a 4-3 staff for the 3-4.

Our D wasnt good last year at all imo i mean it was better with landry and oj but not really good.

Lets go back to the 4-3 and just try it out all of our players other than bowen have 4-3 .

I watched all the games ma'am, and that defense was ranked in the better half of the league. I said that defense was capable, or for a better word, acceptable enough that should you have the right offense (like the one we have now) you could go to the playoffs and win. Just look at Atlanta and the Giants right now. They are arguably 2 of the best teams in the NFL. Atlantas defense ranks 20, NYs ranks 23, ours last year ranked 13th. Again the defense was not the problem last year it was the offense, and now we've fixed the offense but because this team can never have good balance its back to the defense sucking and the offense being good.

los panda · 10-31-2012, 11:44 AM

i forgot what a blitz looks like

Monkeydad · 10-31-2012, 11:44 AM

I don't believe any D-Coordinator could succeed with our secondary.

Otherwise, our D is pretty solid in the front 7 and now that we've spent 2-3 years stocking our roster with 3-4 defenders, it would be stupid to go back to a 4-3 and spend another 3 years shuffling players back to that scheme. Fletcher, Cofield, Orakpo and Kerrigan can play in any scheme...the others are questionable. Maybe Bowen?

Move Rak and Kerrigan to DE? Then who plays LB?

We need to stay on the course we're on and not abandon the 3-4 so early. It we're in Year #5 and it's not working, sure, scrap the experiment but not yet...not before we've even assembled an entire 3-4 roster with quality players.

I think one of the main reasons for the secondary's lack of depth now might be because we had to fill in the front 7 with 3-4 players in the transition. In my opinion, the transition is not yet complete until we restock the secondary. THEN we can fairly judge Haslett's and the 3-4 scheme's performance.

Look at who we've added in the last three years on the Front 7 in the 3-4 switchover:

Orakpo
Kerrigan
Cofield
Bowen
Jenkins
Nield
K. Robinson
Blades
Kehl
Carriker
Riley
C. Wilson
Jarmon (traded)
R. Jackson
M. White
Worthington
D. Scott
V. Holliday (traded)

That's a load of quality defenders...but doesn't leave a lot of room or money left for the secondary. In the beginning of the transition, our secondary was decent with Carlos Rogers and Hall at CB and Landry and Atogwe with plenty of serviceable depth.

Reload the secondary and see if Haslett can do the job. THEN make the decision. Remember, starting over with a new DC and/or scheme will not produce immediate success either. I think we need to see this 3-4 implementation completely through..meaning addressing all 11 positions on D.

CultBrennan59 · 10-31-2012, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monkeydad

I don't believe any D-Coordinator could succeed with our secondary.

Otherwise, our D is pretty solid in the front 7 and now that we've spent 2-3 years stocking our roster with 3-4 defenders, it would be stupid to go back to a 4-3 and spend another 3 years shuffling players back to that scheme. Fletcher, Cofield, Orakpo and Kerrigan can play in any scheme...the others are questionable. Maybe Bowen?

Move Rak and Kerrigan to DE? Then who plays LB?

We need to stay on the course we're on and not abandon the 3-4 so early. It we're in Year #5 and it's not working, sure, scrap the experiment but not yet...not before we've even assembled an entire 3-4 roster with quality players.

I think one of the main reasons for the secondary's lack of depth now might be because we had to fill in the front 7 with 3-4 players in the transition. In my opinion, the transition is not yet complete until we restock the secondary. THEN we can fairly judge Haslett's and the 3-4 scheme's performance.

Look at who we've added in the last three years on the Front 7 in the 3-4 switchover:

Orakpo
Kerrigan
Cofield
Bowen
Jenkins
Nield
K. Robinson
Blades
Kehl
Carriker
Riley
C. Wilson
Jarmon (traded)
R. Jackson
M. White
Worthington
D. Scott
V. Holliday (traded)

That's a load of quality defenders...but doesn't leave a lot of room or money left for the secondary. In the beginning of the transition, our secondary was decent with Carlos Rogers and Hall at CB and Landry and Atogwe with plenty of serviceable depth.

Reload the secondary and see if Haslett can do the job. THEN make the decision. Remember, starting over with a new DC and/or scheme will not produce immediate success either. I think we need to see this 3-4 implementation completely through..meaning addressing all 11 positions on D.

Maybe but Wade Phillips took the worst defense in the NFL and made them into a top 5 defense in one season...

Monkeydad · 10-31-2012, 11:50 AM

Wade Phillips doesn't have our secondary.

View Poll Results: Should Haslett be fired?
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Wait til after the season	68	48.92%
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10-31-2012, 10:11 AM	#184
KI Skins Fan The Starter Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: MD Eastern Shore Posts: 1,297	re: Hey Ho, Haslett has to go! (or maybe not) The primary problem with our defense right now is the lack of an effective pass rush. Part of the pass rush problem is due to injury. Most significantly, the injury to Brian Orakpo. Another part of the pass rush problem is due to the utter lack of aggressiveness and creativity by Jim Haslett. In the Pttsburgh game Haslett did call one cover zero defense that I recall which resulted in forcing the Steelers into a field goal attempt. But there have also been too many weak three man rushes to suit me. In today's NFL, good pass coverage alone just isn't going to get the job done on defense - even for teams that have excellent secondaries. Teams like the Skins that have little pass rush and a poor secondary are sure to get toasted week after week. Right now, the only alternative for the Skins is to get very aggressive and creative with blitz packages and upset the timing of the offense. It may be risky, but it's all we've got. If Haslett isn't up to the task of finding a way to get more pressure on opposing QB's with the personnel he has now, then he deserves to be fired. __________________ Santana Moss on RG3's 76-yard TD run: "You're watching a track meet - and he ain't coming in second."

10-31-2012, 10:59 AM	#188
Monkeydad Gamebreaker Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: PA Age: 33 Posts: 14,884	re: Hey Ho, Haslett has to go! (or maybe not) Well you have to look at the whole D. We're shutting down the run, we're causing a ton of turnovers...but that secondary is getting torched. I can't blame Haslett for the personnel he was given to work with, which at the safety position is just complete garbage. Even this season, our CBs are playing well for the majority of the games but the secondary, mainly the safeties are giving up multiple HUGE pass plays every game. They can't be consistent for the whole game. That's not a coaching issue, that's a personnel issue. Maybe Allen and Shanahan actually had confidence in the guys they brought in (Jackson, Meriweather, Williams, Minnifield)...or maybe this is what the cap penalty dealt us in 2012. We had a ton of positions to address in the offseason and weren't able to hit all of them with the money we had to work with. I'm leaning towards keeping Haslett but also making the #1 priority this offseason to re-make the secondary. Hit it hard in the draft AND free agency and give Haslett so much talent to work with that if he does fail again, it's clearly all on him. We need to go after the best players available. No more trying to piece a secondary together. Wilson can stay, he's having a great year. Hall...bring someone in and make him work for his paycheck, or maybe try him at safety or nickel corner. Safety...none of the current starters should be starters. __________________ Not sent from a Droid, iPhone, Blackberry or toaster

10-31-2012, 11:35 AM	#190
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Springfield, VA Age: 30 Posts: 15,618	re: Hey Ho, Haslett has to go! (or maybe not) i'd have to say our "solid" run D has a lot more to do with other teams seeing a weak secondary and choosing to make it explode on sundays. we couldn't get the steelers to stop running the ball and eating clock and we can't stop anyone from passing. it's pretty tragic. __________________ Who says shameless self promotion is stupid? oh yeah, that was me... Click For Tunes!

10-31-2012, 11:44 AM	#192
los panda Playmaker Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: los angeles, ca Age: 28 Posts: 3,850	re: Hey Ho, Haslett has to go! (or maybe not) i forgot what a blitz looks like __________________ 7 9 21 28 33 42 43 44 49 65 70 81

10-31-2012, 11:44 AM	#193
Monkeydad Gamebreaker Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: PA Age: 33 Posts: 14,884	re: Hey Ho, Haslett has to go! (or maybe not) I don't believe any D-Coordinator could succeed with our secondary. Otherwise, our D is pretty solid in the front 7 and now that we've spent 2-3 years stocking our roster with 3-4 defenders, it would be stupid to go back to a 4-3 and spend another 3 years shuffling players back to that scheme. Fletcher, Cofield, Orakpo and Kerrigan can play in any scheme...the others are questionable. Maybe Bowen? Move Rak and Kerrigan to DE? Then who plays LB? We need to stay on the course we're on and not abandon the 3-4 so early. It we're in Year #5 and it's not working, sure, scrap the experiment but not yet...not before we've even assembled an entire 3-4 roster with quality players. I think one of the main reasons for the secondary's lack of depth now might be because we had to fill in the front 7 with 3-4 players in the transition. In my opinion, the transition is not yet complete until we restock the secondary. THEN we can fairly judge Haslett's and the 3-4 scheme's performance. Look at who we've added in the last three years on the Front 7 in the 3-4 switchover: Orakpo Kerrigan Cofield Bowen Jenkins Nield K. Robinson Blades Kehl Carriker Riley C. Wilson Jarmon (traded) R. Jackson M. White Worthington D. Scott V. Holliday (traded) That's a load of quality defenders...but doesn't leave a lot of room or money left for the secondary. In the beginning of the transition, our secondary was decent with Carlos Rogers and Hall at CB and Landry and Atogwe with plenty of serviceable depth. Reload the secondary and see if Haslett can do the job. THEN make the decision. Remember, starting over with a new DC and/or scheme will not produce immediate success either. I think we need to see this 3-4 implementation completely through..meaning addressing all 11 positions on D. __________________ Not sent from a Droid, iPhone, Blackberry or toaster

10-31-2012, 11:50 AM	#195
Monkeydad Gamebreaker Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: PA Age: 33 Posts: 14,884	re: Hey Ho, Haslett has to go! (or maybe not) Wade Phillips doesn't have our secondary. __________________ Not sent from a Droid, iPhone, Blackberry or toaster

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Hey Ho, Haslett has to go! (or maybe not)

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