Warpath  

Home | Forums | Salary Cap Info | Shop | Donate | Stay Connected




Go Back   Warpath > Redskins Forums > Redskins Locker Room


Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Redskins Locker Room


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-12-2012, 12:51 AM   #46
Living Legend
 
Ruhskins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,111
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by donofriose View Post
I think we do not have players for either a 3-4 or a 4-3, have to get the right coach and players. Right now we have neither. Our d-line is playing like garbage, our linebackers can't cover tight ends or stop the run, and of course the secondary is the secondary. I personally prefer the 3-4, I think Orakpo and Kerrigan can be good 3-4 OLB's, and Carriker is a good DE, not a good DT in a 4-3 though (proved in St. Louis he could not play the position), so we need to change the type of 3-4 we run and change the coaching staff. and obviously draft a lot of new players. Point is it does not matter which scheme we run cause we do not have the players for either.
Scheme matters when you don't have the right players. This team decided to make a major in switch on defense, yet they f'ed up by not getting the right players and a good DC that can work in the transition. Honestly, I don't care what defensive scheme they use, just get the right players period. Get a true 3-4 NT, get some ILBs that can cover TEs, and fix the safety debacle.

I know this defense has lacked talent in many areas. But things are worst when you don't have talent, you try to fit players in the wrong scheme, and we don't have a coach that can work with these deficiencies. So unless you're going to have Bill Bellichick or Wade Phillips coach our defensive unit, scheme matters and having the right players for the right scheme matters as well.
__________________
R.I.P. #21

New words created on The Warpath:
Rewalsr - Somretimes - Fualt - Jersesy - Itiot - Composetory
Afeard - Storgn - Empliment - Gaissn - Saftys - Minnisota
Faviort - Hatter - Phsyched - Foof - Heloing - Brutual
Stroried

"Give an opinion and move on. Your life doesn't depend on winning the internet." -FRPLG
Ruhskins is offline   Reply With Quote

Advertisements
Old 11-12-2012, 01:34 PM   #47
The Starter
 
donofriose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,854
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruhskins View Post
Scheme matters when you don't have the right players. This team decided to make a major in switch on defense, yet they f'ed up by not getting the right players and a good DC that can work in the transition. Honestly, I don't care what defensive scheme they use, just get the right players period. Get a true 3-4 NT, get some ILBs that can cover TEs, and fix the safety debacle.

I know this defense has lacked talent in many areas. But things are worst when you don't have talent, you try to fit players in the wrong scheme, and we don't have a coach that can work with these deficiencies. So unless you're going to have Bill Bellichick or Wade Phillips coach our defensive unit, scheme matters and having the right players for the right scheme matters as well.
Bellichick has proven he cannot coach defenses anymore. They are not forcing players to play out of scheme. Carriker is a good 3-4 end. Cofield is an average NT, could we upgrade yes we could but he is not the biggest problem right now. Jenkins has not proven anything but he is a prototypical 3-4 end. Orakpo and Kerrigan are good 3-4 outside linebackers. I agree we need to upgrade the 3-4 ILBs but our linebackers would not be good if we played a 4-3 or a 3-4. It is not like these players are out of position. The secondary is obviously terrible. We don't have players that would fit well in a 4-3 or a 3-4, because the truth is those players are just not good.
donofriose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 01:38 PM   #48
Living Legend
 
Ruhskins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,111
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by donofriose View Post
Bellichick has proven he cannot coach defenses anymore. They are not forcing players to play out of scheme. Carriker is a good 3-4 end. Cofield is an average NT, could we upgrade yes we could but he is not the biggest problem right now. Jenkins has not proven anything but he is a prototypical 3-4 end. Orakpo and Kerrigan are good 3-4 outside linebackers. I agree we need to upgrade the 3-4 ILBs but our linebackers would not be good if we played a 4-3 or a 3-4. It is not like these players are out of position. The secondary is obviously terrible. We don't have players that would fit well in a 4-3 or a 3-4, because the truth is those players are just not good.
I don't think that is the biggest problem either, but it is a problem I am puzzled as to why we never found a more suitable player for that position. I think we have some young guys that would fit better at that position (Neild, Baker), but I don't think Cofield belongs in that spot (personally I feel he'd be a much better DE in our D).
__________________
R.I.P. #21

New words created on The Warpath:
Rewalsr - Somretimes - Fualt - Jersesy - Itiot - Composetory
Afeard - Storgn - Empliment - Gaissn - Saftys - Minnisota
Faviort - Hatter - Phsyched - Foof - Heloing - Brutual
Stroried

"Give an opinion and move on. Your life doesn't depend on winning the internet." -FRPLG
Ruhskins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 03:31 PM   #49
The Starter
 
GridIron26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,596
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruhskins View Post
I don't think that is the biggest problem either, but it is a problem I am puzzled as to why we never found a more suitable player for that position. I think we have some young guys that would fit better at that position (Neild, Baker), but I don't think Cofield belongs in that spot (personally I feel he'd be a much better DE in our D).
I agree with this, I'm not sure why they couldn't find a decent NT too but I think it probably means that they truly believe that Cofield is the answer.
GridIron26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 05:31 PM   #50
The Starter
 
REDSKINS4ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Born and raised in D.C.....but I'm a New Yorker now....
Posts: 2,128
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by GridIron26 View Post
I agree with this, I'm not sure why they couldn't find a decent NT too but I think it probably means that they truly believe that Cofield is the answer.
I heard Aikman say once that Cofield is not a conventional NT. Cofield in fact played NT at Northwestern. As for them not finding a decent nose tackle, the scouts are not looking at the NTs who play in 3-4 defenses nationwide like Alabama, Stanford, Maryland, Notre Dame, and other NCAA programs who run the 34 defense. When they signed Ma'ake Kemoeatu two years ago, they thought his size would be enough. But the guy couldn't play NT at all.
REDSKINS4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 05:45 PM   #51
‎\m/
 
Mattyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Age: 41
Posts: 81,987
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDSKINS4ever View Post
I heard Aikman say once that Cofield is not a conventional NT. Cofield in fact played NT at Northwestern. As for them not finding a decent nose tackle, the scouts are not looking at the NTs who play in 3-4 defenses nationwide like Alabama, Stanford, Maryland, Notre Dame, and other NCAA programs who run the 34 defense. When they signed Ma'ake Kemoeatu two years ago, they thought his size would be enough. But the guy couldn't play NT at all.
How do you know what scouts are looking at?

Kemo's problem here was he couldn't get healthy. He's made a bit of a comeback with the Ravens.

Former Utah standout Ma'ake Kemoeatu returns to the Baltimore Ravens after sitting out last season | Deseret News
__________________
Support The Warpath! | Warpath Shop
Mattyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 06:03 PM   #52
The Starter
 
REDSKINS4ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Born and raised in D.C.....but I'm a New Yorker now....
Posts: 2,128
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattyk View Post
How do you know what scouts are looking at?

Kemo's problem here was he couldn't get healthy. He's made a bit of a comeback with the Ravens.

Former Utah standout Ma'ake Kemoeatu returns to the Baltimore Ravens after sitting out last season | Deseret News
Simply because mostly every player involved in the defensive line rotation is either a free agent signing that played in the 4-3 defense with some other NFL team, a draft choice that played in a 4-3 in college such as Jarvis Jenkins at Clemson, or traded for some player that played in the 4-3 defense previously(Adam Carriker). It seems to me that the scouts would be doing the same thing that the Steelers and Ravens are doing. Terrace Cody played in a 3-4 defense at Alabama and was a 2nd round draft choice of the Ravens 2 years ago.

Not to mention Orakpo, Kerrigan, Riley, Keenan Robinson, and a few other LBs played as middle linebackers and/or defensive ends in a 4-3 defense in college and not in the 3-4. Its obvious as clearly as the eyes can see that the Redskins scouts are doing a poor job at scouting players who fit Haslett's 3-4 defense to a T. Sure, you can have natural DEs as Kerrigan and Orakpo play OLB in the 3-4, but they are not NATURAL 3-4 OLBs. They only fit because of their athletic ability and awareness. Same thing goes for Perry Riley. He didn't start a game in the 3-4 defense until his second year because he had to learn the scheme just like Keenan Robinson is doing now.

Last edited by REDSKINS4ever; 11-12-2012 at 06:09 PM.
REDSKINS4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 06:12 PM   #53
‎\m/
 
Mattyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Age: 41
Posts: 81,987
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDSKINS4ever View Post
Simply because mostly every player involved in the defensive line rotation is either a free agent signing that played in the 4-3 defense with some other NFL team, a draft choice that played in a 4-3 in college such as Jarvis Jenkins at Clemson, or traded for some player that played in the 4-3 defense previously(Adam Carriker). It seems to me that the scouts would be doing the same thing that the Steelers and Ravens are doing. Terrace Cody played in a 3-4 defense at Alabama and was a 2nd round draft choice of the Ravens 2 years ago.

Not to mention Orakpo, Kerrigan, Riley, Keenan Robinson, and a few other LBs played as middle linebackers and/or defensive ends in a 4-3 defense in college and not in the 3-4. Its obvious as clearly as the eyes can see that the Redskins scouts are doing a poor job at scouting players who fit Haslett's 3-4 defense to a T. Sure, you can have natural DEs as Kerrigan and Orakpo play OLB in the 3-4, but they are not NATURAL 3-4 OLBs. They only fit because of their athletic ability and awareness. Same thing goes for Perry Riley. He didn't start a game in the 3-4 defense until his second year because he had to learn the scheme just like Keenan Robinson is doing now.
You and a lot of others are awfully hung up on this 3-4 thing.

Plenty of teams convert players coming out of college. Its not an uncommon thing at all. Not enough schools run a 3-4. You can't just limit drafting guys from 3-4 schools, that's really shrinking the pool of potential players.
__________________
Support The Warpath! | Warpath Shop
Mattyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 06:28 PM   #54
The Starter
 
REDSKINS4ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Born and raised in D.C.....but I'm a New Yorker now....
Posts: 2,128
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattyk View Post
You and a lot of others are awfully hung up on this 3-4 thing.

Plenty of teams convert players coming out of college. Its not an uncommon thing at all. Not enough schools run a 3-4. You can't just limit drafting guys from 3-4 schools, that's really shrinking the pool of potential players.
I understand what you're saying but it would benefit the coaches, the players they have, and the players that they will draft, sign, and trade for in the future if they just played the 4-3 defense.
REDSKINS4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 06:41 PM   #55
‎\m/
 
Mattyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Age: 41
Posts: 81,987
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Improve talent first and foremost (especially in the secondary) and everything else will take care of itself. The 3-4 vs the 4-3 talk is so overblown its unbelievable. Amazing how we heard very little of this debate last year when the D was actually decent.
__________________
Support The Warpath! | Warpath Shop
Mattyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 10:13 PM   #56
Special Teams
 
Bishop Hammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 139
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Yeah. Talent can overcome a lot of shortcomings. Problem is Shanny has no idea what qualifies as talent on the defensive side of the ball.

And, judging from his first two seasons, he barly knows it on the offensive side.
__________________
I don't have to sell my soul
he's already in me
I don't need to sell my soul
he's already in me
I wanna be adored
I wanna be adored

Stone Roses
"I wanna be adored"
Bishop Hammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 01:08 AM   #57
Registered User
 
The Goat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,662
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattyk View Post
You and a lot of others are awfully hung up on this 3-4 thing.

Plenty of teams convert players coming out of college. Its not an uncommon thing at all. Not enough schools run a 3-4. You can't just limit drafting guys from 3-4 schools, that's really shrinking the pool of potential players.
Why is any of that important for us? Name a 3-4, 3-4/hybrid that was/is any good without an elite NT?

So we lack the key ingredient, and then the same mistake takes some of our best players out of position. It forces Fletcher into single coverage away from the middle of the field, which never has to happen given the right scheme. It doesn't let Orakpo rush the passer every down.

The defense is indefensible. Injury is the cover story, but the devil is in the details. We lack the right guys for what we're trying to do, and we force guys we do have out of their best-fit position. It's there on every play, no chance of missing it.
The Goat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 01:52 AM   #58
Living Legend
 
Ruhskins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,111
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

I honestly don't care what defense they run, just get the right damn players for whatever scheme they want to run and a better defensive coordinator.
__________________
R.I.P. #21

New words created on The Warpath:
Rewalsr - Somretimes - Fualt - Jersesy - Itiot - Composetory
Afeard - Storgn - Empliment - Gaissn - Saftys - Minnisota
Faviort - Hatter - Phsyched - Foof - Heloing - Brutual
Stroried

"Give an opinion and move on. Your life doesn't depend on winning the internet." -FRPLG
Ruhskins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 02:03 AM   #59
Living Legend
 
Ruhskins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,111
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by CultBrennan59 View Post
I think that he would be great there too, but the problem is that for DE are asked to do more athletically than the NT. Also when its passing downs DEs are typically moved to the spot of where 4-3 DTs are on passing downs and rushing the passer. Cofield doesnt have the stamina to be in there every other passing down like Bowen is, per say.
I just don't think Cofield has the ability to be the disruptive NT of a traditional 3-4 like Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, BJ Raji or Shaun Rogers.
__________________
R.I.P. #21

New words created on The Warpath:
Rewalsr - Somretimes - Fualt - Jersesy - Itiot - Composetory
Afeard - Storgn - Empliment - Gaissn - Saftys - Minnisota
Faviort - Hatter - Phsyched - Foof - Heloing - Brutual
Stroried

"Give an opinion and move on. Your life doesn't depend on winning the internet." -FRPLG
Ruhskins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 02:18 AM   #60
The Starter
 
REDSKINS4ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Born and raised in D.C.....but I'm a New Yorker now....
Posts: 2,128
Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop Hammer View Post
Yeah. Talent can overcome a lot of shortcomings. Problem is Shanny has no idea what qualifies as talent on the defensive side of the ball.

And, judging from his first two seasons, he barly knows it on the offensive side.
I agree 100% and for this reason Bruce Allen should be drafting the players, looking for key free agents, and making the trades instead of Mike Shanahan. Allen is the GM. Shanahan is the head coach. The GM should do what GMs do and the head coach should only be focusing on directing the players.
REDSKINS4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site is not officially affiliated with the Washington Redskins or the NFL.
Page generated in 0.39410 seconds with 9 queries

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25