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KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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Old 12-07-2012, 10:44 AM   #76
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
Although internally, it might be hard for them to reconcile what their friend and team mate did, having a tribute at his locker is incredibly inappropriate.

If one of your friends from work were secretly a terrorist and strapped c4 to his body, walked on a schoolbus, and blew everyone up, would you hold a memorial for him at work? You knew him as a nice guy, and it would be hard for you to reconcile your friendship with him with his last actions, but out of respect for those he killed and general human decency, you wouldnt memorialize him in any public way.

its understandable that theyre having a hard time coping with Belchers actions and death, but by setting up a tribute at Belchers locker, the Chiefs have shown gross disrespect to his victims family.
Thought Eric Winston said it well

"He was a player on this team. We're all struggling to reconcile the conflicting emotions we have about a family member, a teammate and the tragic events that took place yesterday. It's hard."

But, this is like the deal with Snyder saying "I hate those mother****ers!" about the Giants in the locker room. The locker room should not be seen as a public place. They did not have a moment of silence for him before the game in front of the fans. There was no vigil. There was no public memorializing

And, I don't know why, but they set up Belcher's locker the same way they have Kevin Boss' locker (IR-concussion)
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:45 AM   #77
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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I hadn't heard they had a tribute to him. I'd have to see what "tribute" meant. But I can definitely see how it could be disrespectful. My point is that it isn't just a binary decision. You are what you've done. ALL of what you've done.

BTW...in my opinion equating murdering in the heat of the moment to executing a premeditated terrorist attack that kills dozens of innocent bystanders is a little off. Not that either is "better" but they're not the same thing at all. One takes actual pure evil...the other takes...well whatever it takes in whatever the given circumstance is.
I couldnt disagree more with your second point. Both require pre-meditation. You dont shoot someone 9 times randomly in the heat of the moment. Think about someone very close to you. Can you envision a situation where you shot him/her 9 times? Probably not. To get to the point where youre take the life of another human being, you have to develop and cultivate a hatred for them. You probably fantasize about it. You dont think that you'll ever do it, but you hate that person and wish they were dead. You let those feelings build up in you for a long time, simmering. Then, one day when youre fighting, you actually think, "you know what, i'm going to do it. I hate this person and i'm going to get rid of them." And then you do it. Thats pure evil. Belcher killed the mother of his child in cold blood. Then, he killed himself because he was too much of a coward to face the consequences of his actions.

If he hadnt killed himself, its possible, in time, he could have repented (and i'm not speaking in a religious sense) and attoned for what he had done. He could have tried to make ammends to the best of his ability. He could have tried to do some good to society. In that situation, you could look at him as a 70 year old man and say, "you were a murderer, but thats not ALL you are. You've changed, and you've done good to your fellow man." But Belcher denied himself that chance. His last act, before killing himself, was to take the life of another human being. Nothing he did prior to that matters, because that last act was so heinous and evil that it overshadows everything else.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:48 AM   #78
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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I couldnt disagree more with your second point. Both require pre-meditation. You dont shoot someone 9 times randomly in the heat of the moment. Think about someone very close to you. Can you envision a situation where you shot him/her 9 times? Probably not. To get to the point where youre take the life of another human being, you have to develop and cultivate a hatred for them. You probably fantasize about it. You dont think that you'll ever do it, but you hate that person and wish they were dead. You let those feelings build up in you for a long time, simmering. Then, one day when youre fighting, you actually think, "you know what, i'm going to do it. I hate this person and i'm going to get rid of them." And then you do it. Thats pure evil. Belcher killed the mother of his child in cold blood. Then, he killed himself because he was too much of a coward to face the consequences of his actions.

If he hadnt killed himself, its possible, in time, he could have repented (and i'm not speaking in a religious sense) and attoned for what he had done. He could have tried to make ammends to the best of his ability. He could have tried to do some good to society. In that situation, you could look at him as a 70 year old man and say, "you were a murderer, but thats not ALL you are. You've changed, and you've done good to your fellow man." But Belcher denied himself that chance. His last act, before killing himself, was to take the life of another human being. Nothing he did prior to that matters, because that last act was so heinous and evil that it overshadows everything else.
Now we're into philosophical differences. We're just going to disagree on this.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:53 AM   #79
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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I couldnt disagree more with your second point. Both require pre-meditation. You dont shoot someone 9 times randomly in the heat of the moment. Think about someone very close to you. Can you envision a situation where you shot him/her 9 times? Probably not. To get to the point where youre take the life of another human being, you have to develop and cultivate a hatred for them. You probably fantasize about it. You dont think that you'll ever do it, but you hate that person and wish they were dead. You let those feelings build up in you for a long time, simmering. Then, one day when youre fighting, you actually think, "you know what, i'm going to do it. I hate this person and i'm going to get rid of them." And then you do it. Thats pure evil. Belcher killed the mother of his child in cold blood. Then, he killed himself because he was too much of a coward to face the consequences of his actions.

If he hadnt killed himself, its possible, in time, he could have repented (and i'm not speaking in a religious sense) and attoned for what he had done. He could have tried to make ammends to the best of his ability. He could have tried to do some good to society. In that situation, you could look at him as a 70 year old man and say, "you were a murderer, but thats not ALL you are. You've changed, and you've done good to your fellow man." But Belcher denied himself that chance. His last act, before killing himself, was to take the life of another human being. Nothing he did prior to that matters, because that last act was so heinous and evil that it overshadows everything else.
So you are saying that someone who murders a loved one and kills themselves is completely sane and rational?

I am not trying to justify what Belcher did or disregard the victim that he killed. But don't you think something really f*cked up must have happened in his mind to do this? Serial killers, terrorists, criminals, are typically pretty f*cked in their mind, but they plan on killing people and in some case relish on the act and the notoriety that comes from their heinous acts.

Some guy going insane, killing his significant other, killing himself, and orphaning his child, in my opinion, is not in that same level.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:00 AM   #80
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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I think there is a big different between someone being a terrorist and someone having something go wrong in their mind to commit a murder/suicide. And I keep saying that something went wrong with his mind, because I don't think a rational/sane person would do what he did.

If I am not mistaken, both families (Perkins' and Belcher's) are mourning both of their deaths.
He definitely had issues, the Chiefs had been dealing with it behind close doors for months
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:01 AM   #81
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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I couldnt disagree more with your second point. Both require pre-meditation. You dont shoot someone 9 times randomly in the heat of the moment.
Surprisingly uninformed statement. So a raging person <stabs/shoots/bludgeons> once and immediately calms down?

<point_laugh>
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:27 AM   #82
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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Surprisingly uninformed statement. So a raging person <stabs/shoots/bludgeons> once and immediately calms down?

<point_laugh>
Surprisingly lack of ability to read. At no point did i comment on the speed at which a person calms down after stabbing/shooting/bludgeoning someone.

My point was that even a murder "in the heat of the moment" requires a level of pre-meditation. Even if a person doesnt specifically plan the act well in advance, he cultivates evil desires/feelings in his heart. Therefore, when he does get in a rage, he's more likely to ACT on it.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:43 AM   #83
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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Surprisingly lack of ability to read. At no point did i comment on the speed at which a person calms down after stabbing/shooting/bludgeoning someone.

My point was that even a murder "in the heat of the moment" requires a level of pre-meditation. Even if a person doesnt specifically plan the act well in advance, he cultivates evil desires/feelings in his heart. Therefore, when he does get in a rage, he's more likely to ACT on it.
Then you're arguing semantics. Exactly 'how' premeditated was it?

You can quite easily kill someone with no premeditation if you snap. For example: You're having a bad day, you get into a situation that exacerbates it in traffic on the way home, walk in the door and someone says the wrong thing. You then <stabs/shoots/bludgeons> that person, no premeditation need occur. Some people have incredibly poor impulse control centers, the frontal lobe of the brain is the part that does the reasoning and it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that an aggressive athlete that has had multiple injuries to this part of the brain may be more susceptible to rage.

Much better explanation that 'evil'.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:47 AM   #84
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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So you are saying that someone who murders a loved one and kills themselves is completely sane and rational?

I am not trying to justify what Belcher did or disregard the victim that he killed. But don't you think something really f*cked up must have happened in his mind to do this? Serial killers, terrorists, criminals, are typically pretty f*cked in their mind, but they plan on killing people and in some case relish on the act and the notoriety that comes from their heinous acts.

Some guy going insane, killing his significant other, killing himself, and orphaning his child, in my opinion, is not in that same level.
There are people who are born with legitimate mental defects, but the vast majority of us chose what type of persons we will be. We are not all dealt the same deck of cards (family, money, education, opportunity), but we all chose how we response to the hands were dealt. We all have a conscience and an innate sense of right and wrong.

There is absolutely no evidence that Belcher was insane. Although temporary insanity is used as a defense in courts of law, i think its BS, for the reasons i've outlined already.

The problem with our society, one of them anyways, is that we foster a culture of unaccountability. We look for excuses to prevent holding ourselves and others accountable for our/their actions:

"I'm getting Divorced. My wife and i just grew apart. We dont love eachother anymore. Its no ones fault." Bull crap. One or both of you got lazy and stopped WORKING on your marriage. Because of your selfishness, your kids will grow up in a broken home.

"I'm behind on my mortgage payments and the evil bank is foreclosing. its not fair. They never should have given me my loan." Bull crap. The bank paid for your home and you signed a contract promising to pay the bank back. You didnt keep your promise, so they have to take your house and try to re-sell it so they don't just lose all the money they spent buying your house. Yeah, you might have lost your job or gone through hard times, but thats not the banks fault.

A man shots the mother of his child 9 times, and everyone is trying to make excuses for him. "he must not have been in his right mind... he must have been insane... he was in a rage... it was in the heat of the moment. they were arguing." BULL CRAP. Its been reported he was having issues with his girlfriend for months. They'd been fighting. This wasnt just some spur of the moment accident. It was MONTHS of anger and animosity building. By chosing to allow those feelings to build, continuing to fight and argue, Belcher cultivated a mindset that was capeable of murder. when things reached a boling point, he acted on it.

Is there a difference between someone like Belcher and a serial killer who takes pleasure in murdering people? Is therre a difference between Belcher and terrorist who blows up a building because his religous/political beleifs make him think its the right thing to do? Sure. But theyre all evil and they all made conscious decisions to cultivate and act on wrong thoughts.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:49 AM   #85
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

from the ESPN AFC Blog. Just a little disconcerting after the Belcher incident:

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RAVENS: Linebacker Terrell Suggs returned to practice Thursday after sitting out the day before. He remains a game-time decision, and doesn't plan to wear a brace for his torn biceps if he does play, according to the team's official website. In other news, Suggs had to surrender several firearms stemming from a domestic case involving his girlfriend, Suggs' attorney told The Baltimore Sun on Thursday. Court records indicate Suggs filed a custody complaint against Candace Williams on Nov. 19, and that Williams filed a complaint against him after that. Two 911 calls were received from Suggs' address on Nov. 21, but did not yield any reports, police told The Sun.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:53 AM   #86
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:55 AM   #87
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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Then you're arguing semantics. Exactly 'how' premeditated was it?

You can quite easily kill someone with no premeditation if you snap. For example: You're having a bad day, you get into a situation that exacerbates it in traffic on the way home, walk in the door and someone says the wrong thing. You then <stabs/shoots/bludgeons> that person, no premeditation need occur. Some people have incredibly poor impulse control centers, the frontal lobe of the brain is the part that does the reasoning and it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that an aggressive athlete that has had multiple injuries to this part of the brain may be more susceptible to rage.

Much better explanation that 'evil'.
Please provide evidence supporting your statement that Belcher had multiple injuries to his brain that affected the ipulse control center of his brain, making him more susceptible to rage.

Please also explain how being more susceptible to rage makes you less responsible for your own actions. In my opinion, if you, for any reason, are more susciptable to rage, then you are responsible for working harder than most people at controlling it.

As to your first statement regarding having a bad day, you've acutally proved my other point. You might not premediate murdering that particular peson, but by chosing to react to all those situations the way that you do, and let that anger bulid up inside you, youre cultivating a mindset that makes you more likely to act on it. If a person has impulses like that, they are responsible for working extra hard to control them - not using it as an excuse for when they do snap.

People "snap" because society tolerates that behavior and makes excuses for it. If it didnt, i think you would find alot less people would "snap."
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:58 AM   #88
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel
I agree with both of those statements. I just beleive it doesnt matter what mental state he was in. he is responsible for allowing himself to get in whatever state it was that allowed him to murder another human being. I also dont think we can dictate how other people should FEEL when coping with a situation like this. My opinion is just that a tribute at his locker is disrepectful.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:59 AM   #89
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel
Right...and I'd add.

I don't think a single one of us is in any position to judge how evil someone is when everyone's definition is different and we have so little information to go on. I don't agree at all with BHA really but I also don't think he's "wrong". It's just not how I look at this situation. Trying to convert someone's opinion on a deeply complicated and nuanced subject such as this is useless.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:07 PM   #90
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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Thought Eric Winston said it well

"He was a player on this team. We're all struggling to reconcile the conflicting emotions we have about a family member, a teammate and the tragic events that took place yesterday. It's hard."

But, this is like the deal with Snyder saying "I hate those mother****ers!" about the Giants in the locker room. The locker room should not be seen as a public place. They did not have a moment of silence for him before the game in front of the fans. There was no vigil. There was no public memorializing

And, I don't know why, but they set up Belcher's locker the same way they have Kevin Boss' locker (IR-concussion)
Bringing it back to the football angle, you're completely right. The lines between public access/privacy in sports are increasingly blurred. Regardless of how we feel about what happened for those 52 other men, coaches, staff, etc. they are dealing with the immediate and violent loss of someone they saw on a daily basis, ate with, traveled with, shared meetings with, shared hotel rooms with and much more. As awful as his acts were on that day, his physical presence is missed (by nothing more than it's absence) by those who interacted with him daily. While the team certainly isn't honoring him, it may be compounding the trauma to those in the locker-room to immediately erase all signs of his existence.
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