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KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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Old 12-07-2012, 12:49 PM   #91
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

from the ESPN AFC Blog. Just a little disconcerting after the Belcher incident:

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RAVENS: Linebacker Terrell Suggs returned to practice Thursday after sitting out the day before. He remains a game-time decision, and doesn't plan to wear a brace for his torn biceps if he does play, according to the team's official website. In other news, Suggs had to surrender several firearms stemming from a domestic case involving his girlfriend, Suggs' attorney told The Baltimore Sun on Thursday. Court records indicate Suggs filed a custody complaint against Candace Williams on Nov. 19, and that Williams filed a complaint against him after that. Two 911 calls were received from Suggs' address on Nov. 21, but did not yield any reports, police told The Sun.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:53 PM   #92
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:55 PM   #93
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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Then you're arguing semantics. Exactly 'how' premeditated was it?

You can quite easily kill someone with no premeditation if you snap. For example: You're having a bad day, you get into a situation that exacerbates it in traffic on the way home, walk in the door and someone says the wrong thing. You then <stabs/shoots/bludgeons> that person, no premeditation need occur. Some people have incredibly poor impulse control centers, the frontal lobe of the brain is the part that does the reasoning and it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that an aggressive athlete that has had multiple injuries to this part of the brain may be more susceptible to rage.

Much better explanation that 'evil'.
Please provide evidence supporting your statement that Belcher had multiple injuries to his brain that affected the ipulse control center of his brain, making him more susceptible to rage.

Please also explain how being more susceptible to rage makes you less responsible for your own actions. In my opinion, if you, for any reason, are more susciptable to rage, then you are responsible for working harder than most people at controlling it.

As to your first statement regarding having a bad day, you've acutally proved my other point. You might not premediate murdering that particular peson, but by chosing to react to all those situations the way that you do, and let that anger bulid up inside you, youre cultivating a mindset that makes you more likely to act on it. If a person has impulses like that, they are responsible for working extra hard to control them - not using it as an excuse for when they do snap.

People "snap" because society tolerates that behavior and makes excuses for it. If it didnt, i think you would find alot less people would "snap."
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:58 PM   #94
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel
I agree with both of those statements. I just beleive it doesnt matter what mental state he was in. he is responsible for allowing himself to get in whatever state it was that allowed him to murder another human being. I also dont think we can dictate how other people should FEEL when coping with a situation like this. My opinion is just that a tribute at his locker is disrepectful.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:59 PM   #95
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel
Right...and I'd add.

I don't think a single one of us is in any position to judge how evil someone is when everyone's definition is different and we have so little information to go on. I don't agree at all with BHA really but I also don't think he's "wrong". It's just not how I look at this situation. Trying to convert someone's opinion on a deeply complicated and nuanced subject such as this is useless.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:07 PM   #96
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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Thought Eric Winston said it well

"He was a player on this team. We're all struggling to reconcile the conflicting emotions we have about a family member, a teammate and the tragic events that took place yesterday. It's hard."

But, this is like the deal with Snyder saying "I hate those mother****ers!" about the Giants in the locker room. The locker room should not be seen as a public place. They did not have a moment of silence for him before the game in front of the fans. There was no vigil. There was no public memorializing

And, I don't know why, but they set up Belcher's locker the same way they have Kevin Boss' locker (IR-concussion)
Bringing it back to the football angle, you're completely right. The lines between public access/privacy in sports are increasingly blurred. Regardless of how we feel about what happened for those 52 other men, coaches, staff, etc. they are dealing with the immediate and violent loss of someone they saw on a daily basis, ate with, traveled with, shared meetings with, shared hotel rooms with and much more. As awful as his acts were on that day, his physical presence is missed (by nothing more than it's absence) by those who interacted with him daily. While the team certainly isn't honoring him, it may be compounding the trauma to those in the locker-room to immediately erase all signs of his existence.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:09 PM   #97
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

And we're back to reading comprehension......

I stated "it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that an aggressive athlete that has had multiple injuries to this part of the brain may be more susceptible to rage." but thanks for the convenient partial quote.

If you rage you lose the ability to control, you're not about to recognize that.

One of the most common effects of frontal damage can be a dramatic change in social behavior. A person's personality can undergo significant changes after an injury to the frontal lobes, especially when both lobes are involved. There are some differences in the left versus right frontal lobes in this area. Left frontal damage usually manifests as pseudodepression and right frontal damage as pseudopsychopathic (Blumer and Benson, 1975).

There's ton of research out there which I'm not filling the forum with, Google it yourself.

Proving your point? No, I wasn't but if you choose to use that tired old rhetorical trick, feel free.

First you said the person needs to recognize they're raging, then you're saying "Society is to blame"? It's purely on the poor impulse control of the person, not society.

Should Bi-polar/schizophrenics seek out treatment? I doubt most are capable without the intervention/help of others.

This conversation isn't going anywhere productive. I'm done. I feel sorry for everyone concerned including the shooter.

OMFG, it's NOT ****ing *EVIL*!

No such thing!
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:12 PM   #98
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel
Regardless of mental state, Belcher is certainly not a victim. Lets be clear.

Chiefs, family and team has handled this about as well as anyone could have. Its a tough, sad situation for all.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:50 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
...

People "snap" because society tolerates that behavior and makes excuses for it. If it didnt, i think you would find alot less people would "snap."
as you said, please provide evidence to support this. We don't know near enough about the limits of the brain capacities to say what makes someone snap. The whole point of saying someone snapped means they went past a point where there mental capacity to respond rationally was there. Explain please how societal pressure at that moment would make a hill of beans difference. The answer is in that moment it doesn't. Geez. Don't make me snap!
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:49 PM   #100
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
I agree with both of those statements. I just beleive it doesnt matter what mental state he was in. he is responsible for allowing himself to get in whatever state it was that allowed him to murder another human being. I also dont think we can dictate how other people should FEEL when coping with a situation like this. My opinion is just that a tribute at his locker is disrepectful.
I think you are trying to make a complicated situation into something simple.

Oh and those disrespectful people who you are dictating how should feel and cope just created a trust fund for that little girl.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:00 PM   #101
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Because to them he was a friend, a teammate, a family member...someone who mattered to them. Ultimately what he did in the end defines him but to the people who knew him there's no switch to forget all the stuff they loved.

To you, someone who didn't know him, its easy to just define him as a killer because that's all you know of him.
I include the teammates when i say people he traumatized. I feel horrible for them and the fact that they had to digest all of this and play that day. If a friend of mine or my brother killed my sister in law in front of my mother i do not think i could just go to work the next day. However i would still have to face the fact that my brother was a cold blooded killer and i probably would not be building a monument of sorts in his honor.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:08 PM   #102
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Very well said.

I'm sick of these mindless babbling morons that talk about him being a coward, a killer, etc., etc. all to win an argument on the internet (you should see the comments section on ESPN.com, ridiculous).

This whole situation is a tragedy for everyone involved. Part of that tragedy is whatever went wrong in the mind of Belcher that drove him to commit such terrible act.

It's just sad situation all around.
It is sad that Belcher did this in every aspect including Belcher as a person. But before you call anyone a moron for calling him a killer - which he is by the way. Ask yourself one question. What if it was your friend, daughter , or sister? What if that was your niece or granddaughter he orphaned. Because they were those things to other people. Would you than say - oh he was a good person who made one horrible mistake? No you would think of him only as a coward and a killer. Im putting myself and my thoughts in the shoes and minds of the true victims here.
Edit: i can only imagine what some people are saying. I have never walked in Belchers shoes and for all i know he was completely out of his head mentally to do what he did. So was Rae Carruth im sure. Somewhere Belchers soul is realizing what he did and he must live with it for all of eternity. That is what i believe. Im sure the guy was slightly (obviously an understatement) unstable . However he was stable enough to drive himself to the stadium and thank his coach and gm for everything they did for him so it sounds like he was pretty aware of his actions. The tribute in his locker was in horrible taste and the true victims here are the friends and family of the girlfriend and daughter.
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Last edited by punch it in; 12-07-2012 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:40 PM   #103
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Im sorry for the rants here but im confused about something. What makes Belcher different than any other person who has ever killed an innocent person? My brothers best friend and wife were gunned down by a maniac killer after the man slit his granddaughters throat in front of his daughter. Believe when i tell you that the fact the guy was a psychopath means nothing to my brother or us or the family members. For the absolute life of me i cannot comprehend that the Chiefs hung his jersey in his locker and paid tribute to him. Columbine was a sad situation, but has anyone ever thought "gee its a shame about that boy and what he must have been going through?" What exactly makes Belchers situation different than anyother cold blooded killer? Imo one life is as valuable as one million lives.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:49 PM   #104
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Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

squawk should be spelled sqwawk right?
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:56 PM   #105
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squawk should be spelled sqwawk right?
No its squawk and im very passionate about this particular thread because i have been affected personally by a murderer. So again im sorry for my rants but i just dont get the fact that their seems to be a gray area here. The man killed - he is a killer, and other than - "this scumbag took a life and hurt alot of people (including his teammates" - imo there is nothing else to say about it! It is no different than any other murder!
Im done.
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