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Jordan Black suspended for PEDs

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Old 12-19-2012, 06:02 PM   #166
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Re: Jordan Black suspended for PEDs

Run Amok, RUN AMOK, RUN AMOK

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Old 12-19-2012, 06:12 PM   #167
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Re: Jordan Black suspended for PEDs

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Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
Goat, you know Shanny is getting strong consideration for coach of the year and RG3 MVP? And the Skins are vying for home playoff game?

You know when Zorn left the franchise was at the absolute bottom that most fans had never experienced?

I kinda dont get it
The only place I've heard Mike for COY is on this board, where else has he been named?

Also, haven't heard RG discussed as MVP outside this board. P Manning, Brady and AP I've heard about. Manning gets it IMO.

Zorn was a joke, but this is Shanahan's team and roster through and through. Interestingly enough, the only remnants or similarities between the two regimes have been in play-calling eg swinging gate vs RG catching the pass against Ryan Clark. I'm not really sure why anyone brings Zorn up otherwise, what does he have to do with anything at this point? You can say the team was depleted of talent, but that's been debunked by Tripp and frankly, common sense. The defense Mike inherited was better than anything he's been able to put together since.

NFL.com lists pts/game ranking for us:

2012-23rd
2011-21st
2010-21st
2009-18th
2008-6th

The 18th ranking in 2009 is probably misleading because much of the team mailed it in halfway through the season. But it's clear anyway. In five seasons we went from 6th to 23rd, and Shanahan has everything to do with that. He also is responsible for an improved offense. So where does that leave us? Again, what's the Shanaplan? How does the defense improve so we can be a contender, given the lack of resources we have going forward? How does it "work" when father and son run the organization from top to bottom?

I don't blame anybody for avoiding specifics here btw. Just don't pretend they're unimportant.

Now we can go back to discussing Jordan Black
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:14 PM   #168
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Re: Jordan Black suspended for PEDs

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To list a bunch of guys as contributors who are hurt (not playing), special teams guys, or only see the field if the rest of the position group is depleted...takes the kind of intellectual gymnastics I'm just not talented enough to understand lol.

Regardless of what you think about Mike's personnel acumen, nobody wants to seriously address/consider the significant conflict of interest associated with father and son running an organization from top to bottom. When will we know, for instance, if decisions made are best for the Shanahans or the Redskins?

One the one hand supporters of the Shanaplan say we have no defensive talent and all the credit goes to Haslett, but then turn around and (try) to create lists of the great talent Mike's acquired across the roster.

We're on a great run right now, and I hope it continues. I think trying to make the last five games into a testament of the regime's overall record is premature at best.
please explain how a conflict of interest is even relevant here: best for the shanahans or the redskins? wtf are you talking about? You could just as easily say that Patriots fans have no way of knowing if Bill Belicheck is making decisions that are the best for Bill Belicheck or for the Patriots.

Mike Shanahan may be a head coach with final say over personnel matters, but he still reports to Bruce Allen, who reports to Daniel Snyder. If Snyder and/or Allen felt Shanahan wasnt making decisions that were best for the organization, Shanahan could be fired. The fact that his son is offensive coordinator is completely irrelevant. The only potential "conflict" that could occur is if Kyle Shanahan sucked and Mike refused to fire him. However, Kyle established himself as a brilliant offensive coordinator in Houston and he's brought nothing but excellence here. So your entire argument about a conflict of interest because the head coach and offensive coordinator are father and son is completely moronic.

About the only sensible statement in your post is that the team is on a 5 game streak. Congratuations. You accurately stated a fact. Then you ruin it by implying that we shouldnt read into it. Mike Shanahan inheritted what was probably the most dysfunctional organization with the least talented roster in the NFL. It might not have been the worst, but it was close to it. A little over 2 years later and we have a stable, sensible organization making sound football decisions. Mike Shanahan spent two years bringing sanity to the front office and building a roster that could lay a foundation for what we have now - something we havent had in 20 years - a franchise quarterback. We didnt have the quarterback in 2010 and 2011 so those years were not pretty. But we have one now and its made all the difference in our team. Mike Shanahan has changed the culture of this franchise and overturned the roster. the only thing our team is really lacking right now is a solid secondary. When is the last time you have looked over our roster and had a hard time finding more than 1 or 2 weak positions groups? If not for the salary cap penalty, and its impact in our ability to sign some quality DBs in free agency, we probably have a much better record now. When Shanahan came here, most sports reporters/media analysts thought the organization and roster was so bad, it would take 3-4 years to turn things around. We're in year 3 and things have been turned around, right on schedule. Please either stop the hate or provide some sort of substantive evidence to support your concerns.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:20 PM   #169
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Re: Jordan Black suspended for PEDs

[QUOTE=BigHairedAristocrat;978007]please explain how a conflict of interest is even relevant here: best for the shanahans or the redskins? wtf are you talking about? You could just as easily say that Patriots fans have no way of knowing if Bill Belicheck is making decisions that are the best for Bill Belicheck or for the Patriots.QUOTE]

Aren't we discussing the future of the team? I keep reading about Mike moving into a full time GM role and Kyle taking over coaching, no?

If you don't see the dangers in that scenario...nevermind.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:29 PM   #170
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Re: Jordan Black suspended for PEDs

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Originally Posted by The Goat View Post
Aren't we discussing the future of the team? I keep reading about Mike moving into a full time GM role and Kyle taking over coaching, no?

If you don't see the dangers in that scenario...nevermind.
are they different from the dangers of any other scenario? if so, how?
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:03 PM   #171
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Re: Jordan Black suspended for PEDs

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Originally Posted by The Goat View Post
The only place I've heard Mike for COY is on this board, where else has he been named?

Also, haven't heard RG discussed as MVP outside this board. P Manning, Brady and AP I've heard about. Manning gets it IMO.

Zorn was a joke, but this is Shanahan's team and roster through and through. Interestingly enough, the only remnants or similarities between the two regimes have been in play-calling eg swinging gate vs RG catching the pass against Ryan Clark. I'm not really sure why anyone brings Zorn up otherwise, what does he have to do with anything at this point? You can say the team was depleted of talent, but that's been debunked by Tripp and frankly, common sense. The defense Mike inherited was better than anything he's been able to put together since.

NFL.com lists pts/game ranking for us:

2012-23rd
2011-21st
2010-21st
2009-18th
2008-6th

The 18th ranking in 2009 is probably misleading because much of the team mailed it in halfway through the season. But it's clear anyway. In five seasons we went from 6th to 23rd, and Shanahan has everything to do with that. He also is responsible for an improved offense. So where does that leave us? Again, what's the Shanaplan? How does the defense improve so we can be a contender, given the lack of resources we have going forward? How does it "work" when father and son run the organization from top to bottom?

I don't blame anybody for avoiding specifics here btw. Just don't pretend they're unimportant.

Now we can go back to discussing Jordan Black
So... You...

1) proved the defense went from 18th to 23rd under Shanahan.

2) Completely avoided specifics by saying the 18th ranking is "misleading"

3) Said Shanahan has everything to do with the last 5 years of the defense, even though he's been here 2 3/4 years total.

4) Misleadingly claimed that the defense dropped from 6th to 23rd under Shanahan when your own facts clearly state that it has only dropped from 18th to 23rd.

5) Make an odd attempt to laugh at us by claiming that we are "avoiding specifics".
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:10 PM   #172
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Re: Jordan Black suspended for PEDs

(1) Mike was discussed as coach of the year on NFL Network conditioned on the Skins making the playoffs - A fair prerequisite. He has also been discussed as COY by local media and pretty much every fan board out there (hogshaven, extremeskins etc.).
Is Shanahan a coach of the year candidate? - Rich Tandler's Real Redskins

(2) Zorn's roster was not talentless. In fact, it had some good aging talent but, as MS noted shortly after his arrival, it lacked depth of any sort. The team inherited by MS was in decline, had a dysfunctional front office and cancerous locker room - That analysis has not been "debunked" by anyone.

(3) Conflict of interest? Well that's just ignorant. As head of the Skins, if MS fails to succeed, he gets fired - ultimately, it is in his and the Skins best interest for him to succeed. If you're concerned that MS would retain his son despite the son's failure ... okay ... maybe. However, once it becomes apparent MS won't fire KS, you think Dan Snyder is likely to just wilt before him while MS tanks the team? Doubtful at best and certainly not backed by history. Once the team was clearly entrusted to Cerrato (after Gibbs II), even he was not immune.

(4) So the criticism against Shanny is now that he hasn't developed any young defensive talent outside the first round? Wow ... reaching on that one. A team with no depth hasn't filled all its holes with late round draft picks. Of course, hitting on Kerrigan, getting play from Jenkins, Crawford and Robinson ... yup - proof positive that MS can't pick defenders this time around.

(5) The criticism of Reid is weak/shallow? Please rebut the assertion he has failed to utilize Westbrook and McCoy. Please rebut the assertion that he has a reputation for poor clock management. Please rebut the assertion that he has a horrible success rate on 3rd and short.

Philadelphia Eagles: 5 Changes Andy Reid Needs To Make | Bleacher Report

(6) The Shanaplan certainly seems evident to me: (a) Build primarily through the draft with some UFA additions; (b) In both the draft and UFA acquisitions seek out "team" players; (c) Provide opportunity without favoritism; (d) Find a franchise QB.


It's very simple Goat. In almost every thing you say related to football, ...
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:17 PM   #173
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Re: Jordan Black suspended for PEDs

just could not stay.....strong could you, Joe?
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:20 PM   #174
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This sounds like Yoda speaking in a ukraine tongue. Lol
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:21 PM   #175
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Run Amok, RUN AMOK, RUN AMOK

Not much you can do in five seconds
Lmao!!!! Now that is hysterical.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:27 PM   #176
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Re: Jordan Black suspended for PEDs

lol ... no. I am human and therefore fail. It's just that he's ... soooo ... irrational.

Mea culpa ... I shall say seven Hail SmootSmack's and six Our Matty's.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:35 PM   #177
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[QUOTE=The Goat;978010]
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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
please explain how a conflict of interest is even relevant here: best for the shanahans or the redskins? wtf are you talking about? You could just as easily say that Patriots fans have no way of knowing if Bill Belicheck is making decisions that are the best for Bill Belicheck or for the Patriots.QUOTE]

Aren't we discussing the future of the team? I keep reading about Mike moving into a full time GM role and Kyle taking over coaching, no?

If you don't see the dangers in that scenario...nevermind.
Goat i believe in the world of forum logistics that ideas and thoughts and beliefs and desires can get twisted or snowball into something they were not intended to come across as. Its the nature of digital expression. I for one respect any idea or opinion which is put forth in this forum because none of us have a crystal ball to debunk a theory or idea. All we can go by imo when discussing the state of the Redskins is wins and losses. Win = success. Loss = failure. Not in a week to week case, because nobody is perfect, but in a broad picture. So i ask you this......what if the Redskins win the division and than make some noise in the postseason. Not like 05, 07 when we knew damn well we were not going anywhere fast. This time we make noise with a rather potent offense, seemingly capable enough defense ( minus one quarter over a five game span they have played pretty damn well), and a kicker we are not afraid to march out on the field and kick us to victory. I dont care whose fault it is or isnt that any of these things are working btw. Haz, rg-3, ks, ms, ? If this team does what i propose they are going to do. Which is win two playoff games at least. Than , would you stand pat and accept this same regime back next year with open arms? Yes or no? One word answer is required.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:03 PM   #178
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Re: Jordan Black suspended for PEDs

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lol ... no. I am human and therefore fail. It's just that he's ... soooo ... irrational.

Mea culpa ... I shall say seven Hail SmootSmack's and six Our Matty's.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:36 PM   #179
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Re: Jordan Black suspended for PEDs

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Goat i believe in the world of forum logistics that ideas and thoughts and beliefs and desires can get twisted or snowball into something they were not intended to come across as. Its the nature of digital expression. I for one respect any idea or opinion which is put forth in this forum because none of us have a crystal ball to debunk a theory or idea. All we can go by imo when discussing the state of the Redskins is wins and losses. Win = success. Loss = failure. Not in a week to week case, because nobody is perfect, but in a broad picture. So i ask you this......what if the Redskins win the division and than make some noise in the postseason. Not like 05, 07 when we knew damn well we were not going anywhere fast. This time we make noise with a rather potent offense, seemingly capable enough defense ( minus one quarter over a five game span they have played pretty damn well), and a kicker we are not afraid to march out on the field and kick us to victory. I dont care whose fault it is or isnt that any of these things are working btw. Haz, rg-3, ks, ms, ? If this team does what i propose they are going to do. Which is win two playoff games at least. Than , would you stand pat and accept this same regime back next year with open arms? Yes or no? One word answer is required.
Yes!

But c'mon buddy, you know I can't just leave it there lol. Just making the playoffs is enough to cement another year of the regime (keeping its current structure) for me. That said, I want to see two consecutive years (presumably this year and next) of improvement before we start signing Shanahans to the next decade of coaching. I think the talk of a clear and recognizable "Shanaplan," extensions, or anything beyond next season is pretty silly right now. I reckon some folks are ready to crown Mike a King and Kyle a prince, I guess because they (fingers crossed) are on the verge of a winning season. It's why I've been rehashing the (vast) shortcomings of the regime in this thread...let's chill the eff out and see what happens.

Last edited by SmootSmack; 12-20-2012 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:12 AM   #180
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Yes!

But c'mon buddy, you know I can't just leave it there lol. Just making the playoffs is enough to cement another year of the regime (keeping its current structure) for me. That said, I want to see two consecutive years (presumably this year and next) of improvement before we start signing Shanahans to the next decade of coaching. I think the talk of a clear and recognizable "Shanaplan," extensions, or anything beyond next season is pretty silly right now. I reckon some folks are ready to crown Mike a King and Kyle a prince, I guess because they (fingers crossed) are on the verge of a winning season. It's why I've been rehashing the (vast) shortcomings of the regime in this thread...let's chill the eff out and see what happens.
Your just hesitant to go all in because your afraid to be pissed off if it blows up again like it has so many times before. I get it. Alot of us are.
Makes me feel better to know that i got an emphatic yes! Lol. I knew you would be hard pressed to give me a one word answer, but i did get a one word paragraph!
I will never say i told you so Goat, i cant. I publicly pointed out shortcomings while they were losing. However, i think coaches can change, Anything you dont like about Shannys defensive personnel decisions can change. We dont know exactly who is discussing exactly what behind closed doors about personnel but old dogs do learn new tricks contrary to popular belief. I firmly believe on every level that this team is onto something big - for a long while - and that it is not just because they got lucky and landed RG-3.
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