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Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

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Old 12-20-2012, 11:13 AM   #121
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry View Post
OK let's start with a definition of Tangible evidencs. "Evidence that can be supported by numbers" otherwise known as "Tangible Data" (my paraphrase). You started off well by using the teams 9-7 record the year before he took over and then provided his 9-7 record the next year. You then did state that he made the playoffs. Here is all of the tangible evidence that you left out.

Mangini - 9-7 - 3rd in AFC East - Missed Playoffs
Ryan - 9-7 - 2nd in AFC East - Lost AFC Championship Game
Ryan - 11-5 - 2nd in AFC East - Lost AFC Championship Game
Ryan - 8-8 - 2nd in AFC East - Missed Playoffs
Ryan - 6-8 - 2nd in AFC East - Missed playoffs (out of contention week 16)

Ryan is 34-28 (.548) in the regular season and 4-2 in the post season (.667)

He has made the playoffs 2 out of 4 seasons


Let's put that into a comparison

Coughlin w Giants 82-60 (.577) in the regular season and 8-3 in the post season (.727)

He has made the playoffs 5 out of 9 seasons.

The numbers are comparable. Rex may not have Coughlin's 2 Superbowl's but he has very similar numbers.

The intangibles as you stated would be the bad personnel decisions and the lack of maturity in the Lockerroom etc.

You state that he has shown lack of leadership in the locker room. That's debatable. Some coaches want the locker room to run wild. It doesn't mean that he is not in charge, he want's them a little out of control. Examples include Jimmy Johnson at the University of Miami and the Oakland Raiders with Al Davis.

You said that he doesn't evaluate talent well at all. Well, I will not agree or disagree with this one. I will say that the last time I checked however, each NFL team has it's own scouts, talent evaluators, and GM. It's their job to evaluate talent. The HC just chips in, but it is not ultimately his job.

You say that they are leaderless, I would say that offensively you would be correct; Mark Sanchez is not a good leader. On defense they have plently of leadership and they play pretty good. That's not a lack of leadership from coaching it's a lack of leadership from the player. You cannot make someone be a leader. Trust me.

You state that he inherited a good team. Brett Favre couldn't make that offense good. He led the Vikings to the playoffs the very next season.

I think that if you give Rex a decent and mature QB, then the Jets can be a force in the NFL.
Thats completely bAss ackwards. They did such a good job Rex's first two years because they had a butt load of talent. A top 5 defense. A great running game. Competent wide receivers. All Sanchez had to do was game manage, make a few throws and the run game and the defense won the games. Typical AFC North style football.

But Rex and their GM are obviously horrible at finding talent and managing a roster. They have done so poorly not because Sanchez has gotten worse, but because the team around him has gotten worse. Sanchez is Alex Smith to a tee. He can manage the game for you, make some throws, but you have to put a great team around them to get deep into the playoffs. They aren't going to put the team on their backs and win games for you like the Brady's and the Mannings' do.

Look at their roster:
Chaz Schilens
Jeremy Kerley
Braylon Edwards
Konrad Reuland
Jeff Cumberland
Shonn Greene
Ronnie Hillman

Sanchez has no one. Instead of filling these needs they don't get any help for the WR corps, sign TIM TEBOW who they won't even start and barely play, the defense signed high priced, aging players who are not performing to their contracts. It's a cut and dry Vinny Cerrato team.

Your argument is not valid because you completely ignore the main issue with the team. Personnel. Every team is different as far as how involved the head coach is with personnel decisions, but they have some input. Most of it goes on the GM, but he needs to go too. Rex needs to go because his rah rah style only works when you have talent and are winning. When you don't have the talent and are losing you get malcontents in the locker room who start outing each other anonymously and making for a bad team environment because you have assembled a team of high paid free agents, not a cohesive team.

Reference: See Cerrato, Vinny and Redskins, The Washington 1999-2010
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:34 AM   #122
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

I agree Angry that Sanchez isnt a good leader but IMO its the HC's job to help him develop into one and I just dont think Rex is a good role model for teaching and developing leadership.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:36 AM   #123
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry View Post
OK let's start with a definition of Tangible evidencs. "Evidence that can be supported by numbers" otherwise known as "Tangible Data" (my paraphrase). You started off well by using the teams 9-7 record the year before he took over and then provided his 9-7 record the next year. You then did state that he made the playoffs. Here is all of the tangible evidence that you left out.

Mangini - 9-7 - 3rd in AFC East - Missed Playoffs
Ryan - 9-7 - 2nd in AFC East - Lost AFC Championship Game
Ryan - 11-5 - 2nd in AFC East - Lost AFC Championship Game
Ryan - 8-8 - 2nd in AFC East - Missed Playoffs
Ryan - 6-8 - 2nd in AFC East - Missed playoffs (out of contention week 16)

Ryan is 34-28 (.548) in the regular season and 4-2 in the post season (.667)

He has made the playoffs 2 out of 4 seasons


Let's put that into a comparison

Coughlin w Giants 82-60 (.577) in the regular season and 8-3 in the post season (.727)

He has made the playoffs 5 out of 9 seasons.

The numbers are comparable. Rex may not have Coughlin's 2 Superbowl's but he has very similar numbers.

The intangibles as you stated would be the bad personnel decisions and the lack of maturity in the Lockerroom etc.

You state that he has shown lack of leadership in the locker room. That's debatable. Some coaches want the locker room to run wild. It doesn't mean that he is not in charge, he want's them a little out of control. Examples include Jimmy Johnson at the University of Miami and the Oakland Raiders with Al Davis.

You said that he doesn't evaluate talent well at all. Well, I will not agree or disagree with this one. I will say that the last time I checked however, each NFL team has it's own scouts, talent evaluators, and GM. It's their job to evaluate talent. The HC just chips in, but it is not ultimately his job.

You say that they are leaderless, I would say that offensively you would be correct; Mark Sanchez is not a good leader. On defense they have plently of leadership and they play pretty good. That's not a lack of leadership from coaching it's a lack of leadership from the player. You cannot make someone be a leader. Trust me.

You state that he inherited a good team. Brett Favre couldn't make that offense good. He led the Vikings to the playoffs the very next season.

I think that if you give Rex a decent and mature QB, then the Jets can be a force in the NFL.
1) You can't just state Coughlin's two superbowls and act like they do not account for anything. Comparing a two-time superbowl winning coach to a coach who hasn't won anything is not a good comparison.

2) A coach who you can compare to Rex Ryan...
Norv Turner... 53-39 (.576) but has shown a decline from when he took over at San Diego, he has been to the playoffs 4-8 times with San Diego, or 50% of the time just like... Rex Ryan. Yet most people belive Norv Turner cannot be a head coach. He has similar numbers to Rex Ryan, so which one is he, is he Norv Turner or is he a coach who was a proven winner at Jacksonville and a two time superbowl winning coach with players that he drafted. Difference between Coughlin and Ryan however, one coach inherited a team that was 9-7 the year before the other inherited a team that was 4-12 and had the number one draft pick. Also one thing they always say Turner lacked... leadership.

3) Leadership is a coach's responsibility. NO coach wants the locker room to run wild, Jimmy Johnson had control of his locker room at Dallas and drafted leaders like Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin. Leadership is absolutely a coaches responsibility. If you want a team to listen to you and respect you, you have to be a leader of men, look what happened at Dallas, a player passed away and Garret showed leadership in the way he handled that situation, and now their team is in playoff contention yet again.

4) I do not think it is coincidence that once Rex Ryan took over they started making questionable off season decisions. Tannedbaum has been there since 2006 (same year Mangini got hired) and had good drafts with Mangini, then all of a sudden Ryan gets hired and he starts to look terrible. Its not just coincidence in my opinion. I don't like Tannedbaum either by the way.

5) Brett Favre was successful with that team, their offense was good, if you recall Brett Favre injured his arm the final 5 games of that season when they started 8-3 and then went 1-4 which knocked them out of the playoff race.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:39 AM   #124
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

Rex Ryan is a good defensive coordinator, I do not believe he is a good head coach.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:50 AM   #125
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

I think what is lost in the Jets discussion is how much of a terrible job Mike Tanenbaum (sp?) has done as a GM.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:51 AM   #126
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

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I think what is lost in the Jets discussion is how much of a terrible job Mike Tanenbaum (sp?) has done as a GM.
I think the entire office and coaching staff needs to be removed. Clean Slate.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:02 PM   #127
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

Man, the Jets get more hype and talk these days than the Cowboys.

I don't get it.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:08 PM   #128
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

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Man, the Jets get more hype and talk these days than the Cowboys.

I don't get it.
if you tebow it, they will come
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:10 PM   #129
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

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Man, the Jets get more hype and talk these days than the Cowboys.

I don't get it.
Because of Tebow and people love to hate Rex Ryan.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:13 PM   #130
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

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Originally Posted by SkinzWin View Post
Thats completely bAss ackwards. They did such a good job Rex's first two years because they had a butt load of talent. A top 5 defense. A great running game. Competent wide receivers. All Sanchez had to do was game manage, make a few throws and the run game and the defense won the games. Typical AFC North style football.

But Rex and their GM are obviously horrible at finding talent and managing a roster. They have done so poorly not because Sanchez has gotten worse, but because the team around him has gotten worse. Sanchez is Alex Smith to a tee. He can manage the game for you, make some throws, but you have to put a great team around them to get deep into the playoffs. They aren't going to put the team on their backs and win games for you like the Brady's and the Mannings' do.

Look at their roster:
Chaz Schilens
Jeremy Kerley
Braylon Edwards
Konrad Reuland
Jeff Cumberland
Shonn Greene
Ronnie Hillman

Sanchez has no one. Instead of filling these needs they don't get any help for the WR corps, sign TIM TEBOW who they won't even start and barely play, the defense signed high priced, aging players who are not performing to their contracts. It's a cut and dry Vinny Cerrato team.

Your argument is not valid because you completely ignore the main issue with the team. Personnel. Every team is different as far as how involved the head coach is with personnel decisions, but they have some input. Most of it goes on the GM, but he needs to go too. Rex needs to go because his rah rah style only works when you have talent and are winning. When you don't have the talent and are losing you get malcontents in the locker room who start outing each other anonymously and making for a bad team environment because you have assembled a team of high paid free agents, not a cohesive team.

Reference: See Cerrato, Vinny and Redskins, The Washington 1999-2010
Nowhere have I ignored the personnel issue. I am stating that it does not fall on the coach. You referenced Cerato, Vinny and the Redskins. Even you did not state Gibbs, Zorn or any plethora of coaches during that term. It is not a coaching problem. He is working with what he has been given. You only mentioned the backs and recievers that are not injured. Did Rex go all Tanya Harding on his starters?

Rex Ryan has a winning record after 4 season and has been to the AFC Championship game twice. His numbers do not warrant a coaching change for at least another season. I agree that there are personnel issues and that his team seems to be on the decline, but I believe that he can turn it around with an equally talented, but more mature QB.

The problem is the GM and the QB, not Rex. I am at an impasse and will not respond on this subject any further.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:30 PM   #131
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

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1) You can't just state Coughlin's two superbowls and act like they do not account for anything. Comparing a two-time superbowl winning coach to a coach who hasn't won anything is not a good comparison.

2) A coach who you can compare to Rex Ryan...
Norv Turner... 53-39 (.576) but has shown a decline from when he took over at San Diego, he has been to the playoffs 4-8 times with San Diego, or 50% of the time just like... Rex Ryan. Yet most people belive Norv Turner cannot be a head coach. He has similar numbers to Rex Ryan, so which one is he, is he Norv Turner or is he a coach who was a proven winner at Jacksonville and a two time superbowl winning coach with players that he drafted. Difference between Coughlin and Ryan however, one coach inherited a team that was 9-7 the year before the other inherited a team that was 4-12 and had the number one draft pick. Also one thing they always say Turner lacked... leadership.

3) Leadership is a coach's responsibility. NO coach wants the locker room to run wild, Jimmy Johnson had control of his locker room at Dallas and drafted leaders like Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin. Leadership is absolutely a coaches responsibility. If you want a team to listen to you and respect you, you have to be a leader of men, look what happened at Dallas, a player passed away and Garret showed leadership in the way he handled that situation, and now their team is in playoff contention yet again.

4) I do not think it is coincidence that once Rex Ryan took over they started making questionable off season decisions. Tannedbaum has been there since 2006 (same year Mangini got hired) and had good drafts with Mangini, then all of a sudden Ryan gets hired and he starts to look terrible. Its not just coincidence in my opinion. I don't like Tannedbaum either by the way.

5) Brett Favre was successful with that team, their offense was good, if you recall Brett Favre injured his arm the final 5 games of that season when they started 8-3 and then went 1-4 which knocked them out of the playoff race.
Lat one

1) He didn't win those Superbowls until after his 5th season (They wanted to fire him too)

2) Norv Turner inherited a stacked and consistent Playoff team led by Phillip Rivers. Rex inherited a team that missed the playoffs and had no QB.

3) I think you missed the argument there. They respected the coach but he allowed them to act out. Watch ESPN's 30 for 30 "The U". Many coaches had an "Us against the world" attitude and it works.

4) The GM is responsible for his own actions.

5) Brett Favre and that team went 9-7 finished 3rd in the division and missed the playoffs.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:54 PM   #132
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

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I agree Angry that Sanchez isnt a good leader but IMO its the HC's job to help him develop into one and I just dont think Rex is a good role model for teaching and developing leadership.
That's a good point.
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:34 PM   #133
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

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Originally Posted by Angry View Post
Lat one

1) He didn't win those Superbowls until after his 5th season (They wanted to fire him too)

2) Norv Turner inherited a stacked and consistent Playoff team led by Phillip Rivers. Rex inherited a team that missed the playoffs and had no QB.

3) I think you missed the argument there. They respected the coach but he allowed them to act out. Watch ESPN's 30 for 30 "The U". Many coaches had an "Us against the world" attitude and it works.

4) The GM is responsible for his own actions.

5) Brett Favre and that team went 9-7 finished 3rd in the division and missed the playoffs.
1) They won a superbowl in his 4th year, not his 5th and they didn't want him fired until last year.

2) "Rex inherited a team that missed the playoffs and had no QB." And this is his fourth season and what are the Jets... A team that missed the playoffs that still has no QB. He hasn't done anything to improve the team.

3) Johnson still had control of the team. Ryan does not, that locker room was split last year because the players had lost respect for Ryan, the problem was the Ryan made it obvious that Sanchez was above the team, he hitched his wagon to Sanchez and wanted Sanchez to be a leader he was not and never will be. He made Sanchez above the team and because of this he lost the locker room which is an obvious weakness in leadership.

4) The GM is responsible, but so is the coach. I do not like either and do feel the Jets should start over in the front office and their coaching staff, but look at the players tannenbaum brought in while Mangini was the coach... Fergurson, Mangold, Leon Washington, Eric Smith, Brad Smith, Revis, D. Harris, and Keller... who has Ryan brought in with the same gm? All their impact players were brought in during the Mangini era even though it was the same GM.

5) I said they missed the playoffs but the reason they missed the playoffs is because Brett Favre got injured and they lost 4 out of their final five games after he got injured (8-3 with him healthy). I believe it was later revealed that he had a torn bicep and the league fined the Jets for it if I remember correctly.

The point is Rex Ryan deserves blame too. He is not the worst coach in the league but if he gets fired he deserves to be fired. He decided to ride with Sanchez and now it might cost him his job. And if it does he deserves to be fired for being dumb enough to ride with a QB like Sanchez.
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:47 PM   #134
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

I watched a press conference today with Rex Ryan trying to explain why he went with McElroy as the starter for this week. He sounded like he had no confidence in his decision and generally came accross as a bumbling idiot. He doesn't strike me as head coach material.
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:51 PM   #135
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Re: Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

Joe Gibbs once said that the most important player on your team is the quarterback, and the 2nd most important is the backup QB. Now that we finally have those roles competently filled, we shouldn't look to trade Cousins unless someone offers a first round pick. Anything less shouldn't be considered.
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