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Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

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Old 02-26-2013, 10:44 AM   #211
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

Well getting an injunction is quite different than running this thing all the way to a trial.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:53 AM   #212
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

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So ... the NFLPA knew of the collusive agreement to keep "competitive balance". Yet, during the bitter lockout in which the NFLPA argued collusion about several specific factors this was never mentioned. Further, once (and only once) it became public, the NFLPA filed a lawsuit alleging that this agreement about "competitive balance" was unknown to them and represented a breach of the prior CBA. Finally, the NFL's response was not "We told them, they knew about it so they shouldn't be upset"; it was "Hey too bad so sad, you waived all your claims - even the one you didn't know you had."

Wow. Revisionist history is one thing. This is "1984" un-person stuff.
Basically the NFL/Owners are back peddling and making stuff up. Lets look at it another way.... If there was an agreement between the NFL/NFLPA and the Skins reworked two players contracts then wouldn't it have been prudent for the NFL to simply deny the contracts and tell the Skins to rework them again because it goes against the "Spirit" of the uncapped year? Then no one would be docked CAP and those contracts could have been worked out another way.

No, in this case, the owners made an agreement amongst them selves to not spend in order to keep costs down, keep spending down when they were trying to tell the players that there was no money to work with, and to deny the contracts the Skins submitted would give the NFLPA proof that the owners had an agreement (collusion) with their knowledge. So the contracts were approved, CBA agreed to and signed, and because the owners were pissed that the Skins didn't go with the program they decided to punish two of their members for not playing along, but to do that they needed to black mail the NFLPA into thinking that if they didn't allow the punishment or sign the adendum to the CBA then they would lose money. and.... the only way for the NFLPA to get proof that there was collusion was for them to sign the agreement anyway. Then some judge (Dotty) denies all claims because ..... the NFLPA signed their rights away.

I think someone (big government) needs to keep the owners and Dotty in check.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:56 AM   #213
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

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Lets look at worst case scenarios....

1- All the owners end up hating Snyder. Not voting for his ideas later.
2- Department of Labor or Justice get involved.
3- The NFL not being exempt from labor laws.

I honestly can't fathom anything else, but I'm sure the owners are happy to be exempt from some of the labor laws and being able to do business as they please. I figure the worst that can happen is the NFL would lose that freedom and would have to do business like all other businesses and unions. That alone would go a long way in keeping both sides more honest.

So for me to weight if its worth it to go nuclear and possibly get our CAP space back.... I'd have to say yes it's worth it. Personally I think there needs to be someone keeping an eye on both sides that has no interest, someone who is not swayed to lean towards the owners in judgement (Dotty), and someone to make sure a fair punishment is delt as well as punishing everyone involved. In this case, yeah maybe the Skins do deserve a punishment although I don't agree with it, but certainly the other owners deserve to be punished for unfair practices against the NFLPA.
You forget about Scenario 2A... The Justice department getting involved, and getting a collusion charge to be done through the Govt. The NFL loses said collusion case and has to pay 2-3 bil to the players, that is instantly tripled. The owners also want nothing to happen to the EXTREMELY owner friendly CBA.

Doubt it would ever happen, but being found guilty of collusion is no easy sentence that the other owners are laughing over. If those are truly the worst case scenarios, then Snyder would have already sued, and the NFL would have already counter sued. Court options are a last resort scenario here for a reason.

P.S. there is a reason the players choose to go to Doty and the owners choose other courts. And it has nothing to do with Doty being pro-owners.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:00 AM   #214
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

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Well getting an injunction is quite different than running this thing all the way to a trial.
Correct. The injuction is just to stop FA. Maybe even to have it put on hold until after a trial if the Redskins are actually filing. But the Skins can file and threaten to go through with a long trial with out an injuction or holding up FA.

The NFL does not want to hold up anything, FA, draft, etc. etc. Although the other owners probably are not scared.... I bet they also dont' want to have the FA period held up either. I'd file the injuction and file the law suit. As it gets closer to FA time I'd play chicken and see if the NFL caves. If they do good for the Skins, if they don't then you still have all the way up until court date of your law suit.... which could be set for June or August, or Sept. and even then you can always post pone the court case a couple of times which would further delay FA.

I'm hoping Snyder has his minions all over these boards listening to his fan base basically wanting him to get some balls against the other owners and pull the pin on the hand grenade and go nuclear.

If he does not think he has enough later to win he can always drop the issue and move on, but the thought of all the other owners pissed that he held up FA makes me happy.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:03 AM   #215
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

I dunno, Snyder's ego gets in the way of smart decision making.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:06 AM   #216
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

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You forget about Scenario 2A... The Justice department getting involved, and getting a collusion charge to be done through the Govt. The NFL loses said collusion case and has to pay 2-3 bil to the players, that is instantly tripled. The owners also want nothing to happen to the EXTREMELY owner friendly CBA.

Doubt it would ever happen, but being found guilty of collusion is no easy sentence that the other owners are laughing over. If those are truly the worst case scenarios, then Snyder would have already sued, and the NFL would have already counter sued. Court options are a last resort scenario here for a reason.

P.S. there is a reason the players choose to go to Doty and the owners choose other courts. And it has nothing to do with Doty being pro-owners.
You right and basically what I said about the Justice Department. or atleast what I was trying to say. All the other owners are happy with how the system is now and don't want big government involved with their system. Maybe there would be some new rules governing players and their contracts or owners having to have insurance on each player or retirement I don't know. But that alone should be enough to scare the other owners. Worst case scenario the Skins win and the Justice department decides to step in and the NFL loses it's exemptions. Best case scenario the other owners give the CAP back and Snyder calls off the law suit and injuction and allows the NFL to operate as normal.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:06 AM   #217
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

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Originally Posted by SBXVII View Post
Lets look at worst case scenarios....

1- All the owners end up hating Snyder. Not voting for his ideas later.
2- Department of Labor or Justice get involved.
3- The NFL not being exempt from labor laws.

I honestly can't fathom anything else, but I'm sure the owners are happy to be exempt from some of the labor laws and being able to do business as they please. I figure the worst that can happen is the NFL would lose that freedom and would have to do business like all other businesses and unions. That alone would go a long way in keeping both sides more honest.

So for me to weight if its worth it to go nuclear and possibly get our CAP space back.... I'd have to say yes it's worth it. Personally I think there needs to be someone keeping an eye on both sides that has no interest, someone who is not swayed to lean towards the owners in judgement (Dotty), and someone to make sure a fair punishment is delt as well as punishing everyone involved. In this case, yeah maybe the Skins do deserve a punishment although I don't agree with it, but certainly the other owners deserve to be punished for unfair practices against the NFLPA.
First, you realize that Doty has been a big friend of the NFLPA for years and that, in the latest CBA, the NFL insisted that cases under the new CBA would not be heard by him. He gave the friendliest rulings he could in not dismissing the NFLPA's collusion case outright in light of the waiver clause. Most judges would likely have dismissed the NFLPA's claim without argument.

Second, and as others have mentioned, this case would have nothing to do with the NFLPA and labor laws. That case has been adjudicated and dismissed. Period. Done. Finito. As part of the settlement of all outstanding claims, in reaching the new CBA, the NFLPA gave up all rights to claim they had been treated unfairly during the negotiations.

Finally, to see what legal theories Snyder is relying on, I would want to go back to there original appeal in front of the arbiter. As I recall, they advanced certain theories that the arbiter said "this is the wrong forum for that argument". If I am remembering it correctly, it is those theories that Snyder would be bringing now. I have to believe it comes down to a breach of contract or a tortuous interference with business by his partners. Those are each claims which would be independent of the arbiter and NFLPA claims. It's been a while since I looked at them, and really have no evaluation of their merit, but, clearly, people being paid a lot more than me have found a credible basis to bring a civil suit on this issue.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:13 AM   #218
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

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First, you realize that Doty has been a big friend of the NFLPA for years and that, in the latest CBA, the NFL insisted that cases under the new CBA would not be heard by him. He gave the friendliest rulings he could in not dismissing the NFLPA's collusion case outright in light of the waiver clause. Most judges would likely have dismissed the NFLPA's claim without argument.

Second, and as others have mentioned, this case would have nothing to do with the NFLPA and labor laws. That case has been adjudicated and dismissed. Period. Done. Finito. As part of the settlement of all outstanding claims, in reaching the new CBA, the NFLPA gave up all rights to claim they had been treated unfairly during the negotiations.

Finally, to see what legal theories Snyder is relying on, I would want to go back to there original appeal in front of the arbiter. As I recall, they advanced certain theories that the arbiter said "this is the wrong forum for that argument". If I am remembering it correctly, it is those theories that Snyder would be bringing now. I have to believe it comes down to a breach of contract or a tortuous interference with business by his partners. Those are each claims which would be independent of the arbiter and NFLPA claims. It's been a while since I looked at them, and really have no evaluation of their merit, but, clearly, people being paid a lot more than me have found a credible basis to bring a civil suit on this issue.
I would think he brings federal antitrust claims along with state law tortious interference claims. If I were him/on his legal team, I would want to bring the case in a DMV area court (preferably VA). Never underestimate the impact a fan on the bench can have on a case; see Judge Berrigan (EDLA) in the Vilma v. Goodell litigation...
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:13 AM   #219
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

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You forget about Scenario 2A... The Justice department getting involved, and getting a collusion charge to be done through the Govt. The NFL loses said collusion case and has to pay 2-3 bil to the players, that is instantly tripled. The owners also want nothing to happen to the EXTREMELY owner friendly CBA.

Doubt it would ever happen, but being found guilty of collusion is no easy sentence that the other owners are laughing over. If those are truly the worst case scenarios, then Snyder would have already sued, and the NFL would have already counter sued. Court options are a last resort scenario here for a reason.

P.S. there is a reason the players choose to go to Doty and the owners choose other courts. And it has nothing to do with Doty being pro-owners.
Also I doubt the NFL would file a counter suit because I'm sure they feel pretty confortable that they have won each time the issue has come to court. Dotty is not pro player he is contract friendly and owner friendly. Which is why the Skins lost their appeal, and why the NFLPA lost their case. God forbid he rule against the owners and what then? would he have to face the fact the owners negotiated in bad faith and the whole CBA is null and void? Then the two sides would have to start over in regards to a new CBA tying him up for long hours and meeting and more negotiations? Heck no it's easier to simply side with the owners and ignore the facts: the owners colluded, negotiated in bad faith, black mailed the NFLPA, and punished two teams for not violating any CBA.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:19 AM   #220
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

I am not an anti-trust lawyer and that is one of those arcane areas that requires expertise in areas I just don't have to evaluate. I would agree, of course, getting a home Court judge is a big thing. Hell, not sure of the make-up of the VA Bench, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that one or two judges appointed by Bruce's brother are still sitting.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:24 AM   #221
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

Does Goodell's response expose them to anything? I would just think in the interest of seeming to be ethical, they wouldn't give that type of response? Irregardless of any threat of legal action.

Anyone ever watch the "don't talk to the police" videos? You'd think that people like Goodell would practice that kind of discretion all the time.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:24 AM   #222
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

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ES member (huly) asking Goodell about capgate. Listen to his explanation. He said the owners AND the NFLPA were told about this "competitive balance". Riiiiiight. SO you are going to tell the NFLPA prior to the lockout that you are indeed going to collude even though there is no salary cap.
Someone should have hurled a Docker.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:29 AM   #223
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

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Someone should have hurled a Docker.
Hahaha now that you say that, it reminds me of the footage of bush's speech a few years back when someone hurled that shoe at him lol.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:33 AM   #224
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

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I am not an anti-trust lawyer and that is one of those arcane areas that requires expertise in areas I just don't have to evaluate. I would agree, of course, getting a home Court judge is a big thing. Hell, not sure of the make-up of the VA Bench, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that one or two judges appointed by Bruce's brother are still sitting.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:36 AM   #225
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Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away

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Also I doubt the NFL would file a counter suit because I'm sure they feel pretty confortable that they have won each time the issue has come to court. Dotty is not pro player he is contract friendly and owner friendly. Which is why the Skins lost their appeal, and why the NFLPA lost their case.
Sorry, this is just wrong. Doty has historically been very player friendly and it has long been one of the owners' goals to get him removed from hearing appeals on CBA issues. It is why he was written out of the new CBA.

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God forbid he rule against the owners and what then? would he have to face the fact the owners negotiated in bad faith and the whole CBA is null and void? Then the two sides would have to start over in regards to a new CBA tying him up for long hours and meeting and more negotiations?
No. He ruled against them because that was what the law required. As a matter of law, The NFLPA the players had waived their claims - known and unknown - of collusion for anything that occurred prior to the new CBA being signed.

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Heck no it's easier to simply side with the owners and ignore the facts: the owners colluded, negotiated in bad faith, black mailed the NFLPA, and punished two teams for not violating any CBA.
Everything you say is true. The owners colluded and negotiated in bad faith - but then the NFLPA affirmatively waived their claims against the owners for all claims when they signed the new CBA. If they believed that more claims were out there, they shouldn't have waived them. They did so as part of a settlement. Once you say, "Okay, I am done suing you." You can't go back and say "Well, except for this."

As for "blackmailing" the NFLPA, I would suggest it was more of a quid pro quo. The NFLPA came to them first and said "Hey, can we make an arrgangement to get more cap space this year??" to which the NFL said "Sure .... just sign here and let us punish these two teams who refused to join in this, heretofore, unknown collusion against you and you may have some extra cap space this year."

As for the acts before the new CBA, they were fully and legally waived. As for the bad acts afterwords, the penalties were imposed in a procedurally correct fashion (per the arbiter) and were arrived at through a quid pro quo bargain with the union.

The key was the waiver. Without it, the NFL had no leg to stand on. With it the union and Snyder, as far as any appeals concerning violations of the CBA, are legally without remedy.

Also, the NFLPA could have said "Nope, we won't sign off on this. These two teams will spend their money on players and taking cap space away from them harms players." The NFLPA leadership did not do this and simply caved so that they would look better in front of their constituents.

While the owners played hard ball all throughout, I would suggest that the players were ultimately ill served by their leadership. The players gave up a lot of legal issues that seemed like small potatoes at the time but that have come back to haunt them (the Commissioner's authority on sanctions, the waiver) in order to get a shortened work year.
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Last edited by JoeRedskin; 02-26-2013 at 11:42 AM.
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