Smithsonian Museum - yet another thread on team name

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

It's whiners like Florio who don't care if the name changes, he wants to be the guy the floated the idea. It's like the old SF mayor Gavin "douchebag" Newsom started the whole gay marriage movement for his own popularity to get elected governor not because he cared about gay people. Screw those a-holes with their own agenda.

I agree. I knew by the title that the article would be stupid. Momentum is not building to change the name. That's a lie. It's not. A few media assholes are whining like they always are this time of year when there's no news to report and their editor needs them to write something for the paper. It's lazy journalism at its finest. And I love how florio goes out of his way to say its a fact that the name is racist, when a historical examination of the term by experts says the contrary.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I wouldn't walk up to a fat man and call him Giant to his face or a gay man and call him a Packer. Does that mean those team names are offensive too?

Just because a word could bee twisted by a bad person to deride someone else, doesn't mean the word itself is inherently offensive. The word itself is not offensive, was not created to be offensive, and was not viewed as offensive when the name was chosen for the team. If it was, no one would have wanted to play for the team because the players would be associating themselves with something they looked down upon.

Good point. Many have tried to put the word Redskin on equal footing with the N word, but if another team called themselves that in 1933 would it have even been tolerated? Even 1933? Not saying Native Americans shouldn't be offended by the word Redskin, because who's to tell anyone what should or shouldn't offend them, but the word has become far more associated with the football team than as a slur. And don't polls show that most Native Americans aren't offended by the Redskins use of the term?

Although it originated as a derogatory word intended to inflict harm, isn't it possible that the word has evolved into something positive? Or that the use of the word altogether has ceased except in this one particular case?

Someone, some group or society as a whole decided to use the word as a slur. Isn't it possible for another generation's someone, some group or society as a whole to decide it no longer has any application whatsoever as a derogatory word?

I'd hate to see the name changed, but I'm all for eliminating the Indian head logo. I like the R helmet anyway.

I just feel like fans adore the name, because it's associated with the team they love. The negative connotation no longer exists.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by Leader In Sports

If you look in a thesaurus, "Yellow Man" is a derogatory term for an Asian. Same with Redskin for a Native American. Back when the Redskins were name (1933), Redskin was a common term, as was Yellow Man, the N word (see what I mean) and many other terms that are now offensive.

I personally don't see a problem with a name like the Chiefs, Braves, Warriors etc as they are not negative terms. They are no different than the Raiders, Vikings, Bucs etc.

Look at it this way, would you walk up to a Native American and refer to him as a "Redskin" to his face? That to me is a good way to judge if the term is offensive.

If I really wanted to insult a Native American, I would not call them Redskin, because it would seem corny now that the term has been associated with an NFL team for 80 years. It's been de-stigmatized, as far as I'm concerned.

You could use the word 'Cowboy' as an insult to someone who is reckless and selfish. Yankee too. Or Rebel.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Good point. Many have tried to put the word Redskin on equal footing with the N word, but if another team called themselves that in 1933 would it have even been tolerated? Even 1933? Not saying Native Americans shouldn't be offended by the word Redskin, because who's to tell anyone what should or shouldn't offend them, but the word has become far more associated with the football team than as a slur. And don't polls show that most Native Americans aren't offended by the Redskins use of the term?

Although it originated as a derogatory word intended to inflict harm, isn't it possible that the word has evolved into something positive? Or that the use of the word altogether has ceased except in this one particular case?

That's actually not true. It did not start as a derogatory term. A a later point, some in pop culture of the day used it as such, but it was short-lived.

Someone, some group or society as a whole decided to use the word as a slur. Isn't it possible for another generation's someone, some group or society as a whole to decide it no longer has any application whatsoever as a derogatory word?

. Excellent point.

I'd hate to see the name changed, but I'm all for eliminating the Indian head logo. I like the R helmet anyway.

I just feel like fans adore the name, because it's associated with the team they love. The negative connotation no longer exists.

I agree with you on both points. I don't have a problem with the logo, other than its a bit dated. I think the R helmet is sick looking. And by saying sick looking, I'm hoping I am not offending anyone who is legitimately suffering from sort of illness. I'm simply using the word the way the kids did when I was growing up, to indicate that I think an idea is really awesome.

And To anyone who thinks the term redskin is currently a racist word, please tell me the last time you heard someone use the word in a derogatory manner. I'm 33 years old and I've never heard the word used in a pejorative way in my life. Not once. Have you? If not, then you need to shut up and get off your high horse or find another team to root for. We don't want you here.

[Leader In Sports]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

That's actually not true. It did not start as a derogatory term. A a later point, some in pop culture of the day used it as such, but it was short-lived.

. Excellent point.



I agree with you on both points. I don't have a problem with the logo, other than its a bit dated. I think the R helmet is sick looking. And by saying sick looking, I'm hoping I am not offending anyone who is legitimately suffering from sort of illness. I'm simply using the word the way the kids did when I was growing up, to indicate that I think an idea is really awesome.

And To anyone who thinks the term redskin is currently a racist word, please tell me the last time you heard someone use the word in a derogatory manner. I'm 33 years old and I've never heard the word used in a pejorative way in my life. Not once. Have you? If not, then you need to shut up and get off your high horse or find another team to root for. We don't want you here.

What part of the country did you grow up? I spent a majority of my childhood out West. Yes, I did hear it as a negative term used to describe people, just like I heard the N word.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by Leader In Sports

If you look in a thesaurus, "Yellow Man" is a derogatory term for an Asian. Same with Redskin for a Native American. Back when the Redskins were name (1933), Redskin was a common term, as was Yellow Man, the N word (see what I mean) and many other terms that are now offensive.

I personally don't see a problem with a name like the Chiefs, Braves, Warriors etc as they are not negative terms. They are no different than the Raiders, Vikings, Bucs etc.

Look at it this way, would you walk up to a Native American and refer to him as a "Redskin" to his face? That to me is a good way to judge if the term is offensive.

If I really wanted to insult a Native American, I would not call them Redskin, because it would seem corny now that the term has been associated with an NFL team for 80 years. It's been de-stigmatized, as far as I'm concerned.

You could use the word 'Cowboy' as an insult to someone who is reckless and selfish. Yankee too. Or Rebel.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

If I really wanted to insult a Native American, I would not call them Redskin, because it would seem corny now that the term has been associated with an NFL team for 80 years. It's been de-stigmatized, as far as I'm concerned.

You could use the word 'Cowboy' as an insult to someone who is reckless and selfish. Yankee too. Or Rebel.

This was an accidental re-post. Sorry.

[InsaneBoost]

Just curious, were the Native American High School's using the "Redskins" as their mascot / team name on there too? Or was it just our Redskins? Anybody know?

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Leader In Sports

What part of the country did you grow up? I spent a majority of my childhood out West. Yes, I did hear it as a negative term used to describe people, just like I heard the N word.

Sorry but I call BS. I grew up in North Carolina. My first wife was half Cherokee and looked it. She grew up in a small town where the population was 99% white , KKK was still prominent and no one ever called her a redskin. So I find it hard to believe you've heard the word prominently used.

[Leader In Sports]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

.....
And To anyone who thinks the term redskin is currently a racist word, please tell me the last time you heard someone use the word in a derogatory manner. I'm 33 years old and I've never heard the word used in a pejorative way in my life. Not once. Have you? If not, then you need to shut up and get off your high horse or find another team to root for. We don't want you here.

What part of the country did you grow up? I spent a majority of my childhood out West. Yes, I did hear it as a negative term used to describe people, just like I heard the N word.

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Sorry but I call BS. I grew up in North Carolina. My first wife was half Cherokee and looked it. She grew up in a small town where the population was 99% white , KKK was still prominent and no one ever called her a redskin. So I find it hard to believe you've heard the word prominently used.

I did not say prominently. You said you did not hear it once, and asked if anyone else had. While I have heard it used in a derogatory manner more than once, I would not use the word prominently.

Since most people don't read entire threads and keep straight who is who, let me restate my original posting (paraphrasing because I don't feel like looking it up):

I see both sides of this issue. I have many friends that played for the Redskins and see their love and loyalty to the team and the name associated with it. I have also seen hateful words and can see legitimately where this is seen by a race of people as one. It is a tough issue with strong feelings on both sides of the argument.

[FRPLG]

Just curious....how is it decided that something is derogatory? For example...the N word is clearly so...all of society would agree. Even those who would use the term use it pejoratively. Contrast that with Redskin. Freely used by many in an obviously non-pejorative way. Seems like those who would be offended dont actually agree that it is indeed offensive. Yet it seems many, even the dictionary, have decided it is a offensive word. How does that work? Could we get a movement together to deem the word cowboy offensive? Seriously. Is all it takes is a few vocal people to take offense and suddenly a word is offensive?

Doesn't it matter that the term's offensiveness is debated and that it is actually being used in a manner meant to honor?

[skinsfaninok]

I live in "native America " and I have redskins decked on my car and I've never had one person say anything

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Leader In Sports

I did not say prominently. You said you did not hear it once, and asked if anyone else had. While I have heard it used in a derogatory manner more than once, I would not use the word prominently.

Since most people don't read entire threads and keep straight who is who, let me restate my original posting (paraphrasing because I don't feel like looking it up):

I see both sides of this issue. I have many friends that played for the Redskins and see their love and loyalty to the team and the name associated with it. I have also seen hateful words and can see legitimately where this is seen by a race of people as one. It is a tough issue with strong feelings on both sides of the argument.

I don't know any Native Americans, haven't been in their environment, so I ask this purely out of ignorance:
Is the word "Redskin" seen by the whole race as a hateful word.
I am fairly confident that any black man or woman who is called a n***** by someone outside their personal circle would take offense at it, and it was used often that way very recently.
I guess I don't see the word "Redskin" as that same widespread angst, more so a smaller portion that portrays itself as speaking for the whole.

[Leader In Sports]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I don't know any Native Americans, haven't been in their environment, so I ask this purely out of ignorance:
Is the word "Redskin" seen by the whole race as a hateful word.
I am fairly confident that any black man or woman who is called a n***** by someone outside their personal circle would take offense at it, and it was used often that way very recently.
I guess I don't see the word "Redskin" as that same widespread angst, more so a smaller portion that portrays itself as speaking for the whole.

I think it would be impossible to say a "whole race" with any word. You will always have someone who will "own" the word.

That is what is evolving with the N word. There is a portion of African American society that is taking ownership of the word, and an entirely different portion that is offended by the action. We are discussing shades of gray, not black and white.

[VTSkins1961]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Good point. Many have tried to put the word Redskin on equal footing with the N word, but if another team called themselves that in 1933 would it have even been tolerated? Even 1933? Not saying Native Americans shouldn't be offended by the word Redskin, because who's to tell anyone what should or shouldn't offend them, but the word has become far more associated with the football team than as a slur. And don't polls show that most Native Americans aren't offended by the Redskins use of the term?

Although it originated as a derogatory word intended to inflict harm, isn't it possible that the word has evolved into something positive? Or that the use of the word altogether has ceased except in this one particular case?

Someone, some group or society as a whole decided to use the word as a slur. Isn't it possible for another generation's someone, some group or society as a whole to decide it no longer has any application whatsoever as a derogatory word?

I'd hate to see the name changed, but I'm all for eliminating the Indian head logo. I like the R helmet anyway.

I just feel like fans adore the name, because it's associated with the team they love. The negative connotation no longer exists.

Not me. If they get rid of the Indian head logo I would want the spear helmets.