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Heath Miller-Trade up question

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Old 03-19-2005, 03:04 PM   #16
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

if he goes in the first it will be to the steelers and he is most likely gonna go. I say trade down just a few in the first to like 20-25 and pick up a second or third.... that way we get him AND a second or third rounder
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Old 03-19-2005, 10:56 PM   #17
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

We have bigger needs than Miller. Pass rushing DE- Barrows has no upside so put LB there-Gibbs is also extremely high on a LB out of Az. Alex Barron OT would not surprise me.
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Old 03-19-2005, 11:11 PM   #18
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
Exactly! I have also heard he's not that fast, we have Cooley, Portis, and now we need a pass catching TE???? I guess we don't need WR's with those 3 catching passes?????

I have no clue what the fascination with this guy is, especially for us who have no need for a pass catching TE, we need a big blocking TE who can catch the occasional pass! Which will be avail. later in the draft.
offiss, I would like to take this time to thank you for educating those less knowlegeable fans by taking the time out to explain things to them. You are a gentleman and a scholar. You are right, a big blocking TE is more of a need than a pass catching one.
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Old 03-19-2005, 11:21 PM   #19
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

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Originally Posted by Schneed10
I think FRPLG underrates his blocking ability. He wasn't used as a blocker much in college because of his pass catching prowess, but when he was asked to block he was very effective.
Wrong...I don't rate his blocking abilty at all. I am simply expressing what I have read in numerous reports. He blocks adequately for being a pass catching TE. And secondily there are plenty of TEs who blocked well in college that wouldn't do well in the NFL. He is a PAS CATCHING TE who blocks decently...that is all.
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Old 03-19-2005, 11:23 PM   #20
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

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I know you want a CB desperately...
I have not once advocated taking a CB in the first round.
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Old 03-19-2005, 11:28 PM   #21
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

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Originally Posted by Schneed10
No. But show me where the hole is that would be considered a "FAR FAR FAR bigger need" than a playmaker like Heath Miller?
First off a pass catching CB is less valuable than a starting CB. I would argue a weakness at CB is worse off than a total lack of receiving production at the TE spot. So by that measure CB is a bigger need. An EVEN BIGGER need is at WR. We have no proven #1 WR...and were not talking about a bunch of second year players. These are guys who have some upside but we can't count on them. Williams is going to be better than all of them. FIll the WR with him if he is there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneed10
Besides, I tend to subscribe to the best-player-available draft theory rather than drafting for need.
I agree. Heath Miller is not going to be the best available player unless we trade down to the end of the first round at best. If there is a real play maker available when we pick then we take him because we go with the "best-available-player".
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Old 03-19-2005, 11:49 PM   #22
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

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Originally Posted by FRPLG
First off a pass catching CB is less valuable than a starting CB. I would argue a weakness at CB is worse off than a total lack of receiving production at the TE spot. So by that measure CB is a bigger need. An EVEN BIGGER need is at WR. We have no proven #1 WR...and were not talking about a bunch of second year players. These are guys who have some upside but we can't count on them. Williams is going to be better than all of them. FIll the WR with him if he is there.

I agree. Heath Miller is not going to be the best available player unless we trade down to the end of the first round at best. If there is a real play maker available when we pick then we take him because we go with the "best-available-player".
I disagree that WR is a big need. I'd be ok with it if we drafted Mike Williams because I think he'll become a hell of a player in the NFL in a few years. But look at the track record of rookie WRs in the NFL. It isn't pretty. He is unlikely to come in and make an impact right away.

If we can get Rolle or Pac Man at 9, I'd be fine with that. And we're very likely to get one of the two there. But trading back wouldn't be a bad idea, and all I'm saying is that if we end up with Miller in a trade down, I'd be fine with that too.

Here's a scouting report on him at scouts.com:
"Big, strong tight end effective catching the ball as well as blocking for the passing or running game. Strong at the point and getsmovement from run blocks or anchors in pass protection."

Now, I know you're not guilty of attacking me, FRPLG, but whoever the idiot was (angryssg?) who insinuated I wasn't knowledgable can try to put his knowledge up against mine any day of the week and come out a loser every time. Miller is a good run blocker, and he gives the ADDED BONUS of being a pass catching TE. He's just known for being a pass catcher because that's how he was used, but that doesn't mean his blocking sucks. Miller may be able to be had in the beginning or middle of round 2, which wouldn't cost a lot on the salary cap either. So if we can trade down out of 9, and get a CB like Marlon Jackson and end up with Heath Miller, I'd be a happy camper.

This whole thread started because someone asked if we should trade our 1st rounder in 2006 to get him this year. I say no way, but if we should end up with the kid on our team through a trade down, we'll be a more balanced offense.
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Old 03-20-2005, 12:59 AM   #23
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Thumbs up Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

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Originally Posted by Monksdown
Trade anything to get him. Fuck that.

I agree. IF we trade down, and that is a HUGE IF, I think that we will most likely take WR or CB at that later pick and use the extra value we get to help build depth at some of the positions we are weak at, like MLB, S, and RG.

I see us drafting a TE for sure this year, but not Heath Miller and not anyone in the first.
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Old 03-20-2005, 01:00 PM   #24
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

I don't think we get better than a 5th rd. pick for Gardner-he is such a bust.Probably won't go anywhere.
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Old 03-20-2005, 10:05 PM   #25
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

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Originally Posted by BossHog
C'mon now. Name a WR in this year's draft who'll probably be drafted in the 3rd round or lower who's a better prospect than Gardner is as a starter. He's durable and you know exactly what he can do against bonafide NFL competiton. Teams better wise up in a hurry. It'll be too late when they find out their rookie 1st or 2nd round selection isn't ready for the big league... this year.
Yes but you know Gardner is inconsistent and he costs $2 million a year and wants an extension for more money. If you're going to draft a WR in the 3rd round, at least he has the potential to be solid and he won't even cost
$1 million per year. You have to factor the $ into the equation. I think a 4th rounder sounds about right for Gardner, you could make a case for a 3rd. A second rounder is impossible in my opinion.
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Old 03-21-2005, 12:46 AM   #26
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

If we get offered a 4th for Gardner we best grab it
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Old 03-21-2005, 08:27 AM   #27
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

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Originally Posted by Schneed10
Yes but you know Gardner is inconsistent and he costs $2 million a year and wants an extension for more money. If you're going to draft a WR in the 3rd round, at least he has the potential to be solid and he won't even cost
$1 million per year. You have to factor the $ into the equation. I think a 4th rounder sounds about right for Gardner, you could make a case for a 3rd. A second rounder is impossible in my opinion.
2 mil a year is cheap and there will be someone who sees that Gardner is probably more naturally talented than all the WRs this year other than the top 3 or 4. I would agree his pending contract situation is somewhat of a turn off but He will not command marquee money by any strecht so it is not that big a deal. We'll get a 3rd for him.

I would also say Gardner IS a solid WR. He is simply not a 1st round pick type production guy. Drafting a WR in the 3rd round MAY net you a SOLID WR and it may net you a training camp cut...you have no idea. At least with Gardner you know you are getting a guy with experience, talent and a 1000 yd season under his belt. Seems better to me than any crapshoot WR you're gonna get in the 3rd.
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Old 03-21-2005, 08:34 AM   #28
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

Reminder: Cliff Russell was a 3rd round pick for us. Sucess of 3rd round WR is a lot lower than you'd expect. If I had a need for a possession reciever and all it was gonna cost was a 3rd round pick to get a guy with size, strength, work ethic and a 1000 yd season I would jump at it. That being said he needs to move on from the Skins. He isn't what we need and all the acrimony around Coles and him makes it best if eh leaves anyways.
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Old 03-21-2005, 08:47 AM   #29
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

i would like them to get hammer to run the ball for the real tough yards, touchdown dives and to close out games. someone like duckett with falcons or like gerald riggs in gibss first run. i believe they could pick this up in later rounds. if they decide to go after miller or williamson then they should definetly trade down. i like portis but the fact is brown out of auburn is my kind of back. guys like him don't come around very often. i can wish can't i?
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Old 03-21-2005, 11:13 AM   #30
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Re: Heath Miller-Trade up question

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRPLG
2 mil a year is cheap and there will be someone who sees that Gardner is probably more naturally talented than all the WRs this year other than the top 3 or 4. I would agree his pending contract situation is somewhat of a turn off but He will not command marquee money by any strecht so it is not that big a deal. We'll get a 3rd for him.

I would also say Gardner IS a solid WR. He is simply not a 1st round pick type production guy. Drafting a WR in the 3rd round MAY net you a SOLID WR and it may net you a training camp cut...you have no idea. At least with Gardner you know you are getting a guy with experience, talent and a 1000 yd season under his belt. Seems better to me than any crapshoot WR you're gonna get in the 3rd.
Do solid WRs drop clutch passes? Sorry, calling Gardner solid just doesn't make sense. If he really were a solid, dependable starter, he'd garner more than a 3rd or 4th round pick in a trade. I don't think there's a team out there who feels he is worth more than a 3rd rounder; and you yourself state that a 3rd rounder usually produces a speculative grade guy. That 1000 yard season was 2 years ago, what have you done for me lately?

The bottom line is Gibbs doesn't feel like he can trust Gardner in key situations because he's so consistent. Don't talk about Gardner's stats and all that crap, I don't care if he's had a 1000 yard season. The bottom line is he can't be trusted to get it done in crunch time because you can't depend on him to hold onto the ball.
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