Musgrave.

John Hasbrouck · 03-26-2005, 03:16 PM

Ramseyfan you refer to it as additional coaching - I call it coaching up-either way one states it-Ramsey needs it -QB performance will be the KEY to our season

skinsguy · 03-26-2005, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Well, Musgrave wasn't brought in to be the offensive coordinator so there's not much sense in analyzing his playcalling abilities.

I think there's this misconception with some of the younger fans that Gibbs is this ultra-conservative minded offensive coach, which just isn't true. But going off last year I can see why this opinion is forming.

Gibbs is responsible for some of the more explosive offenses in NFL history. Last year was definitely an adjustment for him, but I believe we'll see a much improved offense in 2005 with an improved offensive line, a more experienced Ramsey under center, a group of speedy WRs, and Gibbs having last year under his belt.

As I indicated in another thread, the offense averaged over 300 yards per game and just over 20 points per game in the last 5 games of last season. I think we'll see a continuation of that late season development in 2005.

Amen to that! I sort of can understand the youngins basing what they know about Gibbs from what they have seen. I just can't understand why us older fans are bashed in believing in Gibbs when we're doing the same exact thing?

GoSkins! · 03-26-2005, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Amen to that! I sort of can understand the youngins basing what they know about Gibbs from what they have seen. I just can't understand why us older fans are bashed in believing in Gibbs when we're doing the same exact thing?

Yeah, I don't think that the young guys can really understand how totally dominate the offenses under Gibbs were. There are guys hate to lose, guys that work hard to make sure they won't, guys who are smart enough to take a hard look at themselves and change when needed... and Gibbs has always been all of those. I can't believe he is a different person now.

JWsleep · 03-26-2005, 05:39 PM

As Matty said, Musgrave has a background in the west coast offense, so he's coming from a slightly different direction. I think that's a big reason he's there, as well as his obvious role in developing Ramsey. He's not here, as far as I can tell, to call plays. He brings a different perspective and he's a quality coach. What's the problem? No one thinks Musgrave is going to be the big difference-maker. Either Gibbs will figure it out or he wont. Having clear memories of the dominant Gibbs offenses of the 80's-early 90's, I'm optimistic. But we'll see...

shallyshal · 03-26-2005, 06:37 PM

agree with those posters about musgraves purpose as a redskin. most young qb's really benefit from having a qb coach to talk to all the time... ramsey will be no different.

as to what went on in jax, perhaps his playcalling was reflective of the personnel and their shortcomings rather than his own.

in the end, bringing on a younger guy who is well versed in the WCO is absolutely a plus for the team. i see no downside..

diehardskin2982 · 03-26-2005, 09:41 PM

Gibbs only had rust this year. did he run the same three plays when he won the superbowl?

jdlea · 03-27-2005, 12:33 AM

Anybody who will take a step down from Offensive Coordinator to QB's Coach is good in my book. All he has to do is develop Ramsey...much the same way he did Leftwich. Leftwich, when healthy had a pretty decent season last year and they narrowly missed the playoffs. I would be happy if Ramsey makes those kinds of strides. If he does, I think it would land us in the playoffs because we can run the ball and play D. 2 things that aren't exactly the Jags strong suit.

John Hasbrouck · 03-27-2005, 12:49 AM

If Ramsey has that kind of yr. we will be in the SB

illdefined · 03-27-2005, 02:21 PM

I grew up in Gibbs D.C., and I lived the skins fans' dream. I too thought the man could do no wrong. until Brunell.

he was so sure. when absolutely everybody said otherwise. he bet the season and lost. cost us massive cap, and crucial morale as well. how could he be so wrong? I dunno guys. I can doubt him now.

skinsguy · 03-27-2005, 03:03 PM

Are you serious? Brunell won the starting job because he outplayed Ramsey in training camp. Gibbs went with who he felt was the better QB...even Ramsey said it himself that he[Ramsey] was not ready to start at the beginning of the season. The Coles situation is what hurt us with the cap...in fact, Brunell renegotiated his contract to free up a bit of cap room for us. What facts do you have of low morale on the team? Maybe among some fans, but nothing that is team wide.

TheMalcolmConnection · 03-27-2005, 05:03 PM

I would really disagree that there is low morale on the team. Honestly, judging from what I've heard out of players this pre-season, it seems that the team KNOWS it has potential and that everyone is excited for the season to start.

John Hasbrouck · 03-27-2005, 05:24 PM

Ramsey can't run either

skinsguy · 03-27-2005, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by offiss

Brunell was the heavy favorite in the pre-season as far as Gibbs was concerned, Brunell did nothing remotly special in the pre-season to say he outplayed Ramsey, 1 big pass to McCants for a TD was all that realistically seperated the 2. Was Ramsey ready? No. But neither was Brunell considering his performance, I was one of the guys saying Ramsey should have started day 1, he was the future and eventually will prove out to be a much better passer than Brunell, he needed the experience, while my belief was Brunell was a playmaker more than a pocket passer which is what Gibbs wants a QB who can stand in the pocket, well we saw what happens to Brunell when asked to stand in the pocket he no longer can run around and create plays as he once did, it turn's out that Ramsey would have been the right move to start.

As for moral, the only thing that kept this team from really unhinging was Gibbs reputation and peoples belief that he would straighten out the offense, which never really happened, but players like Portis, Gardner, and obviouisly Coles had serious issues on how they were used, moral may not be the right word but there was defiently a lot of second guessing.

Ramsey was not ready to go in from day one. He admitted that himself. Have you forgotten his performance from the earlier games of the season? He was horrible! As far as Joe Gibbs wanting QBs who are strictly pocket passers and not "playmakers"...well first of all, all coaches would like for their QB to be a passer first..playmaker second! Even in Atlanta, Mora wanted Vick to focus more on passing than running...we saw evidence of that this year. Secondly, you might be too young to remember this, but Joe Thesimann returned punts for the Washington Redskins in his first two years with the team. Obviously, that means that Theismann was a threat with his legs as well as his arm. With that said, Brunell was being compared to Theismann at the beginning of the season. We all know the success we had with Joe Theismann in the early 1980's. So, if Brunell seemed to be the favorite...there are plenty of good reasons for that...and I don't care what anyone may say now, nobody even romotely felt Brunell was going to be the bust like he was this season.

Lastly, the offense had improved. I realize you're just measuring the offense by points scored...naturally that would be the easiest thing to do. But considering that our time of possession increased, and we had put ourselves in scoring position quite often...the only thing that really didn't improve was red zone scoring. But, overall, the offense improved quite a bit from it's earlier attempts in the season -- Even with a make shift offensive line. Yes, Ramsey was one of the biggest reasons....but only after he was able to watch the system from the bench and the classroom study, that he was able to figure out the theories behind the system and to understand it. It paid off for Ramsey once he got on the field. He still has a long ways to go, of course, but his hard work has gotten him the starting nod for 2005, and Joe Gibbs' respect and support.

illdefined · 03-27-2005, 10:01 PM

i'm quite serious. surprised you argue it.

MANY people predicted Brunell would be a bust. most in fact. his enormous contract was signed BEFORE pre-season, regardless of the 'competition' which was hardly night and day difference anyway.

Gibbs's loyalty to his player (and unique decision) cost us quite a number of games, not to mention valuable reps Ramsey could have used to finish even stronger than we did with him at the helm.

are you really testing the morale question? if Gibbs was half as successful as hyped, and our offense was half as good our defense, I guarantee we wouldn't have lost ALL of our big sought after free agents (as in all THREE), plus one star player UNDER CONTRACT. in short, if not for Brunell, and Gibbs's strong (and lone) dedication to him, the season and this off-season would have played out MUCH different. i think many would agree.

skinsguy · 03-27-2005, 10:10 PM

Yes, I had seen analysts compare the two before the season started...I'm not going by the "expert" analysis of the forum board. The point my making is it's logical to think if someone is able to return punts and kicks in the NFL, they are some sort of a running threat. How many QBs return kicks and punts anyway? In that Giants game you mentioned, you failed to mention the bad reads Ramsey had and the what....FOUR interceptions in the fourth quarter? Yeah....that's good game play alright!

The offense Vick runs in Atlanta is a west coast offense. Those fake hand-offs are the same plays that Joe Montana ran in his hay-day with the 49ers. Sure, I am not saying that there were NO designed run plays for Vick, but being someone who has kept up with Vick from college up until now, I have noticed that Mora has kept Vick in the pocket more than what he was in previous seasons...that is just plain fact. Why? It's simple...Mora wants to develop Vicks passing game.

And here's a news flash for you...I really don't give a crap what you think Gibbs wants in his QB. I only mentioned JT's punt returns to make you understand that while he was a very good pocket QB, he wasn't immobile like Dan Marino.

03-26-2005, 03:16 PM	#16
John Hasbrouck Special Teams Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 180	Re: Musgrave. Ramseyfan you refer to it as additional coaching - I call it coaching up-either way one states it-Ramsey needs it -QB performance will be the KEY to our season

03-26-2005, 05:39 PM	#19
JWsleep Propane and propane accessories Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 44 Posts: 4,576	Re: Musgrave. As Matty said, Musgrave has a background in the west coast offense, so he's coming from a slightly different direction. I think that's a big reason he's there, as well as his obvious role in developing Ramsey. He's not here, as far as I can tell, to call plays. He brings a different perspective and he's a quality coach. What's the problem? No one thinks Musgrave is going to be the big difference-maker. Either Gibbs will figure it out or he wont. Having clear memories of the dominant Gibbs offenses of the 80's-early 90's, I'm optimistic. But we'll see... __________________ Hail from Houston!

03-26-2005, 06:37 PM	#20
shallyshal Special Teams Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 336	Re: Musgrave. agree with those posters about musgraves purpose as a redskin. most young qb's really benefit from having a qb coach to talk to all the time... ramsey will be no different. as to what went on in jax, perhaps his playcalling was reflective of the personnel and their shortcomings rather than his own. in the end, bringing on a younger guy who is well versed in the WCO is absolutely a plus for the team. i see no downside..

03-26-2005, 09:41 PM	#21
diehardskin2982 What will Shanny do this offseason? Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,924	Re: Musgrave. Gibbs only had rust this year. did he run the same three plays when he won the superbowl? __________________ Let's win games now...PLEASE

03-27-2005, 12:49 AM	#23
John Hasbrouck Special Teams Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 180	Re: Musgrave. If Ramsey has that kind of yr. we will be in the SB

03-27-2005, 02:21 PM	#24
illdefined Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: nyc Age: 37 Posts: 2,631	Re: Musgrave. I grew up in Gibbs D.C., and I lived the skins fans' dream. I too thought the man could do no wrong. until Brunell. he was so sure. when absolutely everybody said otherwise. he bet the season and lost. cost us massive cap, and crucial morale as well. how could he be so wrong? I dunno guys. I can doubt him now.

03-27-2005, 03:03 PM	#25
skinsguy Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina Posts: 5,999	Re: Musgrave. Are you serious? Brunell won the starting job because he outplayed Ramsey in training camp. Gibbs went with who he felt was the better QB...even Ramsey said it himself that he[Ramsey] was not ready to start at the beginning of the season. The Coles situation is what hurt us with the cap...in fact, Brunell renegotiated his contract to free up a bit of cap room for us. What facts do you have of low morale on the team? Maybe among some fans, but nothing that is team wide. __________________ Not the same Skinsguy that posts on ES.

03-27-2005, 05:03 PM	#26
TheMalcolmConnection I like big (_\|_)s. Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lexington, Virginia Age: 31 Posts: 17,119	Re: Musgrave. I would really disagree that there is low morale on the team. Honestly, judging from what I've heard out of players this pre-season, it seems that the team KNOWS it has potential and that everyone is excited for the season to start. __________________ Regret nothing. At one time it was exactly what you wanted.

03-27-2005, 05:24 PM	#27
John Hasbrouck Special Teams Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 180	Re: Musgrave. Ramsey can't run either

03-27-2005, 10:01 PM	#29
illdefined Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: nyc Age: 37 Posts: 2,631	Re: Musgrave. i'm quite serious. surprised you argue it. MANY people predicted Brunell would be a bust. most in fact. his enormous contract was signed BEFORE pre-season, regardless of the 'competition' which was hardly night and day difference anyway. Gibbs's loyalty to his player (and unique decision) cost us quite a number of games, not to mention valuable reps Ramsey could have used to finish even stronger than we did with him at the helm. are you really testing the morale question? if Gibbs was half as successful as hyped, and our offense was half as good our defense, I guarantee we wouldn't have lost ALL of our big sought after free agents (as in all THREE), plus one star player UNDER CONTRACT. in short, if not for Brunell, and Gibbs's strong (and lone) dedication to him, the season and this off-season would have played out MUCH different. i think many would agree.

03-27-2005, 10:10 PM	#30
skinsguy Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina Posts: 5,999	Re: Musgrave. Yes, I had seen analysts compare the two before the season started...I'm not going by the "expert" analysis of the forum board. The point my making is it's logical to think if someone is able to return punts and kicks in the NFL, they are some sort of a running threat. How many QBs return kicks and punts anyway? In that Giants game you mentioned, you failed to mention the bad reads Ramsey had and the what....FOUR interceptions in the fourth quarter? Yeah....that's good game play alright! The offense Vick runs in Atlanta is a west coast offense. Those fake hand-offs are the same plays that Joe Montana ran in his hay-day with the 49ers. Sure, I am not saying that there were NO designed run plays for Vick, but being someone who has kept up with Vick from college up until now, I have noticed that Mora has kept Vick in the pocket more than what he was in previous seasons...that is just plain fact. Why? It's simple...Mora wants to develop Vicks passing game. And here's a news flash for you...I really don't give a crap what you think Gibbs wants in his QB. I only mentioned JT's punt returns to make you understand that while he was a very good pocket QB, he wasn't immobile like Dan Marino. __________________ Not the same Skinsguy that posts on ES.

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