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Old 07-07-2005, 11:09 AM   #16
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Re: For the Dockery haters

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Originally Posted by Defensewins
You could also say he started 29 games because we have no depth or anyone better then him to replace him.
At what point does Dockery and few other Redskins (Ramsey, T. Jacobs) fall out of the category of a "young" developing player? Dockery is now in his third year, he is not a rookie/ young developing player anymore, he is now a veteran.
The reason I am saying is there were a couple of rookies that came straight of college last year, were drafted in lower rounds than Dockery was two years earlier, and started the entire season for their NFL team. The two rookies I am referring to started for San Diego, a team that went one game short of the Superbowl.
These two rookies played very well last year, better than Dockery played in his first two seasons. Dockery was very mistake prone in his first two seasons. At some point have to stop coddling certain players just because we drafted them high and have alot invested in them.
I was waiting for someone to say this, I find it hard to believe that if he was that much of a liability we wouldn't have replaced him already. We could have started Raymer at center last year and put Friedman at LG if Dockery was that bad. If he was that bad we could have signed someone this offseason to replace him or compete for his job. We didn't though, that tells me the coaches are comfortable with him for now.

As for when does he fall out of the young developing player category, this year! If he doesn't take his game to the next level this year I'll have no problem if he's replaced.

But if some people here had their way, Dockery wouldn't even have the chance to develop, he would have been replaced already.

The fact that he's started 29 straight games, and the coaches haven't looked to replace him, tells me they have a certain level of confidence in him.
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Old 07-07-2005, 12:48 PM   #17
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Re: For the Dockery haters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defensewins
You could also say he started 29 games because we have no depth or anyone better then him to replace him.
At what point does Dockery and few other Redskins (Ramsey, T. Jacobs) fall out of the category of a "young" developing player? Dockery is now in his third year, he is not a rookie/ young developing player anymore, he is now a veteran.
The reason I am saying is there were a couple of rookies that came straight of college last year, were drafted in lower rounds than Dockery was two years earlier, and started the entire season for their NFL team. The two rookies I am referring to started for San Diego, a team that went one game short of the Superbowl.
These two rookies played very well last year, better than Dockery played in his first two seasons. Dockery was very mistake prone in his first two seasons. At some point have to stop coddling certain players just because we drafted them high and have alot invested in them.
Defensewins, please explain to me exactly why you think Dockery isn't any good. I hear you saying he's labeled as a young developing player, and I hear you saying these other two rookies played better than Dockery, but what I'm not hearing are the specifics.

WHAT DID DOCKERY DO WRONG???

Nobody can ever answer that question. The only thing the guy messed up with was penalties. How many times did he miss an assignment? Not many, blitz pickups are simple for a guard, they just stay on the DT in front of them and let the HB worry about picking up the blitzing LBs. How many times did he get bulldozed by a DT? None that I can remember. How many times did he fail to get to his blocks on running plays? Not many. Which side did the Redskins tend to run towards last year, the Dockery/Samuels side or the Thomas/Brown side? Answer, Dockery/Samuels.

I don't get why people think he was bad. The only argument you can make is penalties. If you can offer an answer to the question "what did Dockery do wrong", I'd love to hear it.
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Old 07-07-2005, 12:51 PM   #18
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Re: For the Dockery haters

Also, we did not draft Dockery high. He was a 3rd rounder.
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Old 07-07-2005, 12:59 PM   #19
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Re: For the Dockery haters

You guys remember at the beginning of the season the line was a seive. Brunell was getting no time and having to scramble all over the field, especially from his blind side. You always saw him rolling to the left, away from his blind side, which was the right side of the line. He got caught from behind on a couple of them giving up big fumbles. He also threw a few crappy INTs while on the run from the pass rush.

Well, DOCKERY WASN'T ON HIS BLIND SIDE. That was Kenyatta on that side letting in all that pressure. Ray Brown was better, but still not great.

When Ramsey went in, suddenly the left side of the line was the blind side again, where Samuels and Dockery are. It's not a coincidence that Ramsey dealt with less of a pass rush. Samuels and Dockery were the strong side of the line against pass rushers, and the right side was weaker. But Ramsey could see the defense coming from the right side, Brunell couldn't.

Dockery is not amongst our chief concerns along the line. Jansen being out was problem number one, and a center who wasn't athletic enough to get to his blocks was problem number two.

Sorry for ranting, but this Dockery argument gets me fired up! You just don't go replacing guys who are serviceable when you have bigger problems to deal with, that's how you develop salary cap problems!
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Old 07-07-2005, 01:43 PM   #20
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Re: For the Dockery haters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneed10
You guys remember at the beginning of the season the line was a seive. Brunell was getting no time and having to scramble all over the field, especially from his blind side. You always saw him rolling to the left, away from his blind side, which was the right side of the line. He got caught from behind on a couple of them giving up big fumbles. He also threw a few crappy INTs while on the run from the pass rush.

Well, DOCKERY WASN'T ON HIS BLIND SIDE. That was Kenyatta on that side letting in all that pressure. Ray Brown was better, but still not great.

When Ramsey went in, suddenly the left side of the line was the blind side again, where Samuels and Dockery are. It's not a coincidence that Ramsey dealt with less of a pass rush. Samuels and Dockery were the strong side of the line against pass rushers, and the right side was weaker. But Ramsey could see the defense coming from the right side, Brunell couldn't.

Dockery is not amongst our chief concerns along the line. Jansen being out was problem number one, and a center who wasn't athletic enough to get to his blocks was problem number two.

Sorry for ranting, but this Dockery argument gets me fired up! You just don't go replacing guys who are serviceable when you have bigger problems to deal with, that's how you develop salary cap problems!

Wow, excellent post.
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Old 07-07-2005, 07:26 PM   #21
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Re: For the Dockery haters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneed10
Defensewins, please explain to me exactly why you think Dockery isn't any good. I hear you saying he's labeled as a young developing player, and I hear you saying these other two rookies played better than Dockery, but what I'm not hearing are the specifics.

WHAT DID DOCKERY DO WRONG???

Nobody can ever answer that question. The only thing the guy messed up with was penalties. How many times did he miss an assignment? Not many, blitz pickups are simple for a guard, they just stay on the DT in front of them and let the HB worry about picking up the blitzing LBs. How many times did he get bulldozed by a DT? None that I can remember. How many times did he fail to get to his blocks on running plays? Not many. Which side did the Redskins tend to run towards last year, the Dockery/Samuels side or the Thomas/Brown side? Answer, Dockery/Samuels.

I don't get why people think he was bad. The only argument you can make is penalties. If you can offer an answer to the question "what did Dockery do wrong", I'd love to hear it.

Wow! I can feel the anger
One thing, you guys need to stop putting words in my mouth or other people who just have a difference of opinion. No need to get upset. LOL!
I never said Dockery "is not any good'" or "we should get rid of him" or he sucks. Frankly, I do not want to cut him. All I am saying is he is very average at best. At times during his first two years he made a lot of mental mistake, offsides is the one that comes most to mind. Next to (#1) turnovers, penalties are the #2 drive killer. So to say he just commits penalties is a huge understatement. Superbowl teams do not commit a lot of mistakes and penalties.
My main issue with Dockery is his play, he is not a nasty, pancake blocker type. For a guy that is 6' 6'" and 345 pounds he is not knocking people down or back very much, if it all. I have never seen Dockery knock a guy off the line like I saw Jacoby (undrafted player) do. Dockery (third round pick) is more of a contain blocker than an agressive push someone back type. If we found another Randy Thomas or Russ Grimm, Dockery would make a great back up. My current opinion of Dockery is just that, it should not piss you off. Hopefully Dockery will take the next step in his level of play...I hope!
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Old 07-07-2005, 10:54 PM   #22
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Re: For the Dockery haters

DefenseWins - I don't ever want to see you cry for continuity. For a group that requires so much communication and bonding the offensive line should be reviewed more as a unit than individually. It's important to stop replacing people, especially young players, so quickly. How about we try to keep an offensive line (which I feel is top 5-10 in the league right now) together and let them get some continuity. His first year - look at the offensive line coach, Chris Samuels said he tried to tell him to block a different way than was taught to him in college, high school, and other places. That's a real problem, everyone commited mental mistakes. Dockery will be fine if we leave him alone with Bugel, Samuels, Jansen, Thomas, and Rabach for a while.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:19 AM   #23
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Re: For the Dockery haters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defensewins
Wow! I can feel the anger
One thing, you guys need to stop putting words in my mouth or other people who just have a difference of opinion. No need to get upset. LOL!
I never said Dockery "is not any good'" or "we should get rid of him" or he sucks. Frankly, I do not want to cut him. All I am saying is he is very average at best. At times during his first two years he made a lot of mental mistake, offsides is the one that comes most to mind. Next to (#1) turnovers, penalties are the #2 drive killer. So to say he just commits penalties is a huge understatement. Superbowl teams do not commit a lot of mistakes and penalties.
My main issue with Dockery is his play, he is not a nasty, pancake blocker type. For a guy that is 6' 6'" and 345 pounds he is not knocking people down or back very much, if it all. I have never seen Dockery knock a guy off the line like I saw Jacoby (undrafted player) do. Dockery (third round pick) is more of a contain blocker than an agressive push someone back type. If we found another Randy Thomas or Russ Grimm, Dockery would make a great back up. My current opinion of Dockery is just that, it should not piss you off. Hopefully Dockery will take the next step in his level of play...I hope!
Defensewins, don't take it the wrong way, I'm not angry with you. I just can't understand people ragging on the kid.

It's very common for young players to make mental mistakes, which is exactly what penalties are. All he needs is coaching and time with his teammates. Now if his penalties do not improve this year, then I can kind of see your point, because this is his third year and he's had some time with his teammates.

But come on, we can't ask every player to be Joe Jacoby. It seems kind of rough to beat on him when you consider his play to be average, except for the penalties. You're right, he's not pancaking guys, but he's not giving up sacks either. If he reduces the penalties, suddenly the line as a group looks pretty darn formidable.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:42 AM   #24
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Re: For the Dockery haters

Of all the preview rags I've read this offseason, the one constant positive thing seems to be the offensive line. Most people agree it should be one of the better units in football. Personally I'm really excited for the offense this year, mainly because of the line.
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Old 07-08-2005, 11:28 AM   #25
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Re: For the Dockery haters

I don't think that we should throw him away but if anything was to happen this offseason i wish that we would get a better line. I believe we are a full 40% better because raymer frankly sucked and we got an slightly above average center, stop hating on Ray he was a back up and now we have a strongly above average player to replace him Janson. I am happy with our line. I can see more time for our QBs. From what I have heard Samuels gave up 1 sack last year and dockery was standing next to him. He played well with samuels and now next to rabach he will play even better. I think that we are a great team at the o-line position and that is why that one site(i don't remeber which one but it was posted a few weeks ago) ranked us 3rd best on o-line and espn said we had the most potential in the east. simply if i was FORCED to replace one player on the o-line it would be dockery, not because he is BAD it is because everyone else is amazing.

All we want is perfection. The chiefs have that perfection, who are their WRs, who no one, Eddie kennison and Johnny Morton. OK not a great WR group, they are fast bout it. They have Gonzalez i say that but otherwise how does Trent Green become a QB that throws for 4500+ and number 2 in the league. It is the O-line that lead them to the most rushing tds in a game 8 last year. That o-line is the most important part of that team and that in my opinion is exactly what we need. We have fast Wrs and a good running back and a big arm QB, If that o-line plays we could be an above average offense next year.

Basically he is the weakest link and i think that everyone agrees with that. Does that mean he is bad, no but he is still the weakest and some of us want a great line. I don't want to replace him but if we had more cap money I wouldn't be completly opposed to it. BUT i think the line is currently in great shape for next year
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