Warpath  

Home | Forums | Salary Cap Info | Shop | Donate | Stay Connected




Go Back   Warpath > Redskins Forums > Redskins Locker Room


Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

Redskins Locker Room


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-13-2005, 10:39 AM   #16
Puppy Kicker
 
Daseal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Arlington, Virginia
Age: 31
Posts: 8,178
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

Quote:
So Gibbs has disgust and distain for Ramsey?

Meanwhile he's repeatedly said, since very early in the offseason, that Patrick is his starter.

Interesting.

I guess Gibbs is just blowing smoke up our asses.

Like Schneed10 said, Gibbs has always had 2 starting quality QBs on his rosters, Gibbs hasn't changed his tune at all in that regard. So why are people spinning it as he somehow hates Ramsey?

Ridiculous.
I think Gibbs' true feelings about Ramsey will come out if he struggles like Brunell. Does he get the 8 week grace period or a two week one. Hopefully we won't find out either way!

Smoot has been a quality CB his entire career. Imagine that, putting lots of pressure on the QB and forcing them to make bad throws made Smoot look better. That's the same for every defense. However, he was making big plays when he didn't have any time. Also, could it be, that Smoot simply got better skill wise? He's still fairly young in the league and learning. Smoot was a great Redskin and because the Redskins didn't want to give him near the money MN would, I can understand him leaving. Same with Pierce - when you go that many years with damn near league minimum I understand going for more money. It's not like they had huge contracts they wanted to redo. Before I hear that crap that the Redskins offer was almost the same as MNs. MNs was front loaded to where he'd actually see some of the salary, along with a slightly higher SB than the skins offered. Meaning he sees a lot more of that.

Why do we bash players that we consistantly stick up for when they leave, especially when they just leave on normal terms. It's the new NFL. This isn't like Gibbs first era where you can stockpile talent and have them wait. Or give players what they want. It's the salary cap -- and we all know the game wouldn't be as exciting without it.
__________________
Best. Player. Available.
Daseal is offline   Reply With Quote

Advertisements
Old 07-13-2005, 10:52 AM   #17
‎\m/
 
Mattyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Age: 41
Posts: 79,438
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daseal
I think Gibbs' true feelings about Ramsey will come out if he struggles like Brunell. Does he get the 8 week grace period or a two week one. Hopefully we won't find out either way!
I can't see Gibbs keeping Ramsey on that short of a leash. 2 weeks isn't a fair shot for anyone.

He has always been very loyal to his starting QB, almost to a fault... as we saw last year.

Ramsey will get a very fair shot, I have no doubt.

If Gibbs really didn't like Ramsey, why would he keep him around and make him the starter? If anyone can make sense of that please let me know.

He could have easily said there will be an open competition for the job in camp to let Brunell back into the running. But he didn't, so what does that say for how he feels about Ramsey? It tells me he thinks he's the best guy for the job right now.

The Campbell pick shows me Gibbs has one eye on the future. There's no guarantee we'll be able to fit Ramsey under our cap especially if he has a big year and wants a big payday. Or what if he simply wants to play elsewhere no matter what the team offers him?

I guess it's just easier to take the view that Gibbs somehow hates Ramsey and just has it in for him, so that's why he took Campbell. But if you step back and look at the big picture, I think it's easy to see that Gibbs is following the same MO he always has, he likes quality depth at QB. Simple as that.
__________________
Support The Warpath! | Warpath Shop
Mattyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 11:47 AM   #18
RG Glee
 
Schneed10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Newtown Square, PA
Age: 34
Posts: 8,217
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daseal
Smoot has been a quality CB his entire career. Imagine that, putting lots of pressure on the QB and forcing them to make bad throws made Smoot look better. That's the same for every defense. However, he was making big plays when he didn't have any time. Also, could it be, that Smoot simply got better skill wise? He's still fairly young in the league and learning. Smoot was a great Redskin and because the Redskins didn't want to give him near the money MN would, I can understand him leaving. Same with Pierce - when you go that many years with damn near league minimum I understand going for more money. It's not like they had huge contracts they wanted to redo. Before I hear that crap that the Redskins offer was almost the same as MNs. MNs was front loaded to where he'd actually see some of the salary, along with a slightly higher SB than the skins offered. Meaning he sees a lot more of that.

Why do we bash players that we consistantly stick up for when they leave, especially when they just leave on normal terms. It's the new NFL. This isn't like Gibbs first era where you can stockpile talent and have them wait. Or give players what they want. It's the salary cap -- and we all know the game wouldn't be as exciting without it.
I am with you when you say Smoot was good and he had a lot of skill. I don't think Gregg Williams was the only reason Smoot was so good last year. If anything, Smoot and Springs allowed Williams to run the defense he wanted to. Without good corners, Williams can't operate his defense the way he wants. He is a great mind, but he does need some tools to work with, and Smoot & Springs were the most important tools in his toolbox last year.

That said, I honestly don't see much of a dropoff from Smoot to Walt Harris. I've been through this argument before, but just to reiterate, Walt was a former first round pick. He was a starter for many years. The only reason he wasn't a starter recently was because he busted up his knee and we got him for cheap. Now his knee is totally healthy as he proved last year, and he is quite capable of covering some top receivers. I don't think the drop from Smoot to Harris is that significant.

I am concerned about Rogers though, because you need more than two good CBs. While I'm totally confident in Springs and Harris, I'd feel better if Rogers were healthy enough to get a full training camp under his belt so he can fit into the nickel role. I like Garnell Wilds, he did nicely against Randy Moss last year. But honestly, it's a leap of faith to assume he can handle a nickel role on a consistent basis. Of course, Antonio Pierce made that leap last year, so I won't rule anything out. But I'd just feel better with Rogers in better health.
Schneed10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 11:49 AM   #19
Playmaker
 
illdefined's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: nyc
Age: 37
Posts: 2,631
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

Hindsight just hasn't been kind to my deep worship of Joe Gibbs. To me, the biggest factor in our weak season last year was his apparent worship of Mark Brunell. What does Gibbs think he sees, and why does he always put obstacles in front of Ramsey?
illdefined is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 12:10 PM   #20
‎\m/
 
Mattyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Age: 41
Posts: 79,438
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

What obstacles?

Ramsey is the unquestioned starter going into camp.

What more needs to be said?
__________________
Support The Warpath! | Warpath Shop
Mattyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 12:10 PM   #21
Uncle Phil
 
SmootSmack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 44,484
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneed10
I am with you when you say Smoot was good and he had a lot of skill. I don't think Gregg Williams was the only reason Smoot was so good last year. If anything, Smoot and Springs allowed Williams to run the defense he wanted to. Without good corners, Williams can't operate his defense the way he wants. He is a great mind, but he does need some tools to work with, and Smoot & Springs were the most important tools in his toolbox last year.

That said, I honestly don't see much of a dropoff from Smoot to Walt Harris. I've been through this argument before, but just to reiterate, Walt was a former first round pick. He was a starter for many years. The only reason he wasn't a starter recently was because he busted up his knee and we got him for cheap. Now his knee is totally healthy as he proved last year, and he is quite capable of covering some top receivers. I don't think the drop from Smoot to Harris is that significant.

I am concerned about Rogers though, because you need more than two good CBs. While I'm totally confident in Springs and Harris, I'd feel better if Rogers were healthy enough to get a full training camp under his belt so he can fit into the nickel role. I like Garnell Wilds, he did nicely against Randy Moss last year. But honestly, it's a leap of faith to assume he can handle a nickel role on a consistent basis. Of course, Antonio Pierce made that leap last year, so I won't rule anything out. But I'd just feel better with Rogers in better health.
Nice post, as usual.

Illdefined, as far as putting obstacles in front of Ramsey. It's possible that he felt he was doing Ramsey a favor by not throwing him out there to the wolves while Gibbs got adjusted to the new NFL. I think maybe he felt he'd rather have Brunell out there on the field early on if for no other reason than Brunell would have a better handle on things going on on the field.
__________________
You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You
SmootSmack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 12:27 PM   #22
RG Glee
 
Schneed10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Newtown Square, PA
Age: 34
Posts: 8,217
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAS
Nice post, as usual.

Illdefined, as far as putting obstacles in front of Ramsey. It's possible that he felt he was doing Ramsey a favor by not throwing him out there to the wolves while Gibbs got adjusted to the new NFL. I think maybe he felt he'd rather have Brunell out there on the field early on if for no other reason than Brunell would have a better handle on things going on on the field.
Good point. And call me crazy, but I think good old Joe meant what he said last year going into training camp; the QB position was an open competition. Both Ramsey and Brunell looked brutal in the preseason last year, but Brunell looked a little less brutal, so he played.

Ramsey was able to learn the offense in practice while Brunell stunk up the joint last year, and Ramsey came in and showed he was solid.

I think that's all Gibbs needed to see. So Matty's right, when he says Ramsey is the starter, he means it, because he saw him perform admirably in his starts last year (take out the relief performance against the Giants, and Ramsey would have had a 85 QB rating). Campbell was picked for developmental purposes only; his selection was not an indictment of Ramsey's abilities. Old Joe is just getting himself a solid backup because he knows he needs to clear Brunell's bloated salary off the books as soon as it's beneficial under the cap regulations.
Schneed10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 12:29 PM   #23
RG Glee
 
Schneed10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Newtown Square, PA
Age: 34
Posts: 8,217
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

But that's not to say Campbell will be a career backup. There may come a day when we can't afford to keep Patrick. Or maybe Campbell will prove he deserves to start down the line. But for now, Ramsey is the guy, and Gibbs means it.
Schneed10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 12:49 PM   #24
Playmaker
 
illdefined's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: nyc
Age: 37
Posts: 2,631
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

I can maybe understand not wanting to put Ramsey on the line as Gibbs adjusted to the new NFL, but that didn't justify all the money Brunell got, or, way more importantly, all the chances Gibbs kept giving Brunell after it was plain to see he was costing us every game.

Ramsey isn't exactly a rookie with no starts, I think it was a general consensus that Ramsey could have been put in earlier in the season and won some more games. Gibbs bet the farm on Brunell and lost.

While Ramsey is finally getting his chance from the beginning, Gibbs already has made another big gesture with somebody to eventually replace him in this year's draft. I know it's been said ad nauseum, but most agree we had way more pressing (defensive) needs. The pattern of Gibb's QB decisions just can't inspire too much confidence in the boy, that's all i'm saying.
illdefined is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 12:58 PM   #25
Playmaker
 
illdefined's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: nyc
Age: 37
Posts: 2,631
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneed10
Campbell was picked for developmental purposes only; his selection was not an indictment of Ramsey's abilities. Old Joe is just getting himself a solid backup because he knows he needs to clear Brunell's bloated salary off the books as soon as it's beneficial under the cap regulations.
I hope that take is right; Hasslebeck seemed like a solid backup though and not taking the chance to shore up a depeleted defense for a future backup QB doesn't seem very pragmatic. I'm sure Ramsey and maybe even coach Williams was a bit surprised.
illdefined is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 01:06 PM   #26
Playmaker
 
BrudLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Rehoboth Beach, DE
Posts: 3,494
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

Quote:
Originally Posted by illdefined
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneed10
Campbell was picked for developmental purposes only; his selection was not an indictment of Ramsey's abilities. Old Joe is just getting himself a solid backup because he knows he needs to clear Brunell's bloated salary off the books as soon as it's beneficial under the cap regulations.
I hope that take is right; Hasslebeck seemed like a solid backup though and not taking the chance to shore up a depeleted defense for a future backup QB doesn't seem very pragmatic. I'm sure Ramsey and maybe even coach Williams was a bit surprised.
I don't know that it's entirely to acquire a "solid backup". If Ramsey falters this season, there isn't a QB on the roster to run the team in 2006. Brunell will have taken his own life (maybe - it could happen), and bringing in a free agent to start will put us in the position of teaching on the fly - just like last year. This way, Coach Gibbs gets either (a) a credible backup relatively cheaply - bottom of the first round money isn't that much, or (b) a groomed "rookie" with a year of studying the playbook and practicing with the pros.
__________________
There's nowhere to go but up. Or down. I guess we could stay where we are, too.
BrudLee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 01:16 PM   #27
Playmaker
 
illdefined's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: nyc
Age: 37
Posts: 2,631
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrudLee
I don't know that it's entirely to acquire a "solid backup". If Ramsey falters this season, there isn't a QB on the roster to run the team in 2006. Brunell will have taken his own life (maybe - it could happen), and bringing in a free agent to start will put us in the position of teaching on the fly - just like last year. This way, Coach Gibbs gets either (a) a credible backup relatively cheaply - bottom of the first round money isn't that much, or (b) a groomed "rookie" with a year of studying the playbook and practicing with the pros.
that makes sense, and sorry i missed the discussion when it happened, but what was wrong with Hasslebeck, who'd been here through all of it?
illdefined is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 01:36 PM   #28
Playmaker
 
BrudLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Rehoboth Beach, DE
Posts: 3,494
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

Quote:
Originally Posted by illdefined
that makes sense, and sorry i missed the discussion when it happened, but what was wrong with Hasslebeck, who'd been here through all of it?
Tim Hasselbeck is a hell of a nice guy, who is pretty bright. he also has a below average arm, both strength and accuracy-wise. During his brief period of starts here thanks to injuries, he completed 53.7% of his passes, and had a QB rating of 63.6. That's not something to build on. He's also 27 years old - that's by no means an old man, but it falls awkwardly between young gun and wily veteran.
__________________
There's nowhere to go but up. Or down. I guess we could stay where we are, too.
BrudLee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 01:43 PM   #29
Playmaker
 
BrudLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Rehoboth Beach, DE
Posts: 3,494
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

Quote:
Originally Posted by offiss
Your missing the point, and the point is none of those players were drafted higher than the 3rd rd, they were projects that Beathard took a chance on that they could be developed, a far cry from what we gave up to get Campbell, you also can't compare Gibbs first tenure to today's NFL we now have a salary cap to contend with, you do not give up what we gave up for a first rd QB to make him a project, period!

Basically if Gibbs had any confidence in Ramsey there is no way we take Campbell where we did, what is the point? To have 2 bonified starters on our roster to watch Campbell just sit and eat up our salary cap? Tell me what's the plan for Campbell if Gibbs believes in Ramsey? I would like to know the thinking behind that one? As I said from day 1 the Campbell pick was just plain stupid no matter how you look at it.

If Gibbs believes in Ramsey than all he should have been looking for is a #2 backup to groom, instead we now have neither, Campbell is 3 season's away, and Brunell another Gibbs move well we all saw how that panned out.

My question is this, what happens if Ramsey goes down this season? Does anyone think Campbell can step in? Don't make me laugh at that one, so I guess we are 1 hit away from Brunell and a high 1st rd draft pick next year, oh wait we don't have one, WONDERFUL!
offiss -
We're going to have to agree to disagree. Campbell isn't three years from being ready - I don't think any player is that far. if he isn't ready to play next year, he likely won't ever be. To arbitrarily have him ready in 2008 seems capricious. (I just found a thesaurus).

To say that 2005 is Ramsey's year, despite no history of success (and I'm a huge Ramsey fan) and not be prepared to be wrong would be grossly irresponsible. Brunell will be gone next year, which gives you a choice of Ramsey (whether he's successful or not), a free agent (who will have to adjust to a new offense), or a rookie (who will need to learn not only the offense, but adjust to the speed of the league) - unless you draft a player to learn for a year. The cost was high, true, but if Ramsey can't make the leap this year, what is the alternative?
__________________
There's nowhere to go but up. Or down. I guess we could stay where we are, too.
BrudLee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2005, 01:50 PM   #30
Playmaker
 
Paintrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Age: 43
Posts: 4,878
Re: Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

I echo what most have said here in regards to Smoot, that he was good his whole career but Williams just raised his profile.. Also I think that he benefitted (at least in the media sense) from being the 2nd best CB available this offseason behind Samari Rolle. If we kept him then I think he would have been regarded, media wise, as part of a 'solid but unspectacular secondary.' Media types ALWAYS accentuate the negative, it's how they keep their jobs.. I am ok with Harris/Rogers/Wilds as long as Springs stays healthy and Taylor stays focused.

With Ramsey however I tend to agree with the dissentors.. While I don't think Gibbs hates Ramsey as has been insinuated, I don't think he beleives in him either. Two offseasons in a row he has sought to upgrade the position. If you are 100% behind your 26 yr old starter and believe your 34 yr old backup can still play effectively, you don't trade 3 picks for a rookie QB in the 1st round. From all indications it was a smart move since Campbell has impressed thusfar but it's still not the move of a coach who is confident at that position. For those who like to cite the Chargers Brees/Rivers situation, anyone who claims the Chargers are 'happy' to have 2 young talented QB under contract (who are probably taking up close to $10 million in cap space) and on the roster is misguided.. It's better to have a QB you are sure is the future and a solid veteran backup. I don't buy Gibbs assertion 'you get the best football players out there' regarding Campbell when there were other holes that could have been better served by that pick..
Paintrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site is not officially affiliated with the Washington Redskins or the NFL.
Page generated in 0.38195 seconds with 9 queries

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25