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do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

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Old 07-21-2005, 11:48 AM   #31
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattyk72
Last year's personnel moves outside of Brunell were very solid and borderline exceptional with guys like Griffin and Springs, two moves that critics had a field day with. The jury is out on this year simply because we haven't seen these guys play yet.

Instead of jumping to the "we need a GM" take anytime something happens you don't agree with, why don't we see how this year plays out first?
I agree Matty. Lets not forget about Marcus Washington, and Walt Harris. Both solid pickups as well.
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Old 07-21-2005, 11:51 AM   #32
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by Defensewins
I couldn't agree more! We need a real G.M.
The Snyder/Cerrato duo has been mostly bad. As you point out they did some good, but mostly bad.
Talent evaluation is the main problem. Our lower round picks is where a G.M. makes his money and we have done terribly in that department.
Beathard/Casserly made great teams with lower round picks and cast offs.
On our current roster our only good players are the top pick/can't miss guys like Lavar Arrington, Chris Samuels, Sean Taylor, Patrick Ramsey, Clinton Portis and John Jansen were all first and second round picks. We have very few if any low round or undrafted players that that is playing great.
Really Casserly/Beathard don't have many better lower round picks/cast-offs than Cerrato/Snyder/Gibbs.

Casserly/Beathard you're looking at guys like Clint Didier, Mark Rypien, Timmy Smith (one game...but what a game!), Kurt Gouveia, Raleigh McKenzie, Mark Schlereth, Joe Jacoby

Cerrato/Snyder/Gibbs you're talking about guys like Rock Cartwright, Darnerien McCants, Antonio Pierce, LeMar Marshall, Andre Lott, Ryan Clark, Robert Royal (and we'll see how McCune, Newberry, and Nemo pan out)

I know guys like Cartwright, McCants, and Royal haven't made a profound impact yet. But all have shown flashes and at the very least Royal seems to be in the long term plans of this team

All I'm saying is that I don't get this common perception that the Redskins teams of the 1980s were a bunch of late round picks and free agents. I don't think it was like that at all
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:01 PM   #33
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

First thing, I do remember reading that Gardner did want an extension from which ever team he went to and this was stalling any trade. But what I do not understand is how can Gardner have any demands as such if he is still under contract to us? When we would trade him wouldn't is basicly be his contract to the other team for what ever pick or player in return?

As for Barrow, there was nothing our Front office could do about that, I mean like many posted he was a very good player that had the bad luck bug bite him last season. So if Barrow would like to try to get to another team then so be it...

But I do want to say that the Gardner thing is about the only thing that the front office did this offseason that made me scratch my head. Many complain about the so called crappy offseason that we had, but I dont see it. Look, we brought in needed help at center, we signed a vet reciever that has tons of experience. We let go a 2nd round corner only to replace him with a first round corner. And we traded an injured reciever for a healthy reciever. Plus we drafted help for our linebackers and for special teams. Most importantly we kept the same staff for another season. All in all, I personally think that we had a pretty good offseason...
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:04 PM   #34
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
FINALLY! Yes, our front office IS to blame for the way they have bungled one situation after another! Why even sign Barrow, 35, to a 6 year 13 million dollar dealt to begin with! And why would you tell Lavernous Coles that you will trade him and suffer such a huge cap hit? This team needs a GM. Those of us that are old school remember when the GM was Bobby Beatherd and the team thrived with its personnell, now we flounder. Gibbs has proven he's a great coach, but he needs someone else to be the devil's advocate on personnell decisions, just like Beatherd was in the old days. Vinny Cerrato is NOT the answer, we need a GM that will work with the coach, and disagree with him when it is necessary. Yes, they have picked up a few good free agents in Marcus Washington and Cornelius, but for the most part our team is in disarray when it comes to the draft and free agency. Look at Darnerian McCants, signed him to a deal, gave him a nice sigining bonus, then sat his ass on the bench all of last season. We traded like a 3rd round pick for Brunnell who would've been cut anyway, then we trade Champ AND a draft pick for Portis. I know some of you guys don't like to criticize our team, but the fact of the matter is that our front office has made the Skins a laughing stock on most websites. We need a GM.
There are so many things wrong with this, it's not even funny.

1) At the time of his signing, Mike Barrow was a pillar of health. He led the Giants in tackles the previous year and hardly missed any games. 6 years and $13 million is a nice low price. Hence, cutting him now doesn't destroy our cap, even though he didn't work out due to bad-luck injuries.

1A) The decision to sign Barrow was not the point of this thread. The point is to discuss how to handle Barrow THIS YEAR.

2) Trading Coles was the best move we made this offseason. We were scheduled to be about $10 million over the 2006 salary cap. Now after trading him away and taking his hit this year, our 2006 looks a lot better. We now have a shot at keeping our core together for the long term, without having to cut key cogs like Jansen. And besides, Coles didn't want to be here. I'd rather let the "core player" who doesn't want to be here walk out the door now, instead of lose a core player next year who does want to be here.

3) Darnerian McCants was not signed to that contract under the Gibbs regime. I can see faulting the front office structure before Gibbs arrived, but you can't hold the current structure at fault on that one. McCants is Spurrier's boy. Spurrier who didn't give two craps about special teams play. Gibbs is making the RIGHT call on McCants; if you're not willing to put your time in on special teams, take a seat on the bench. Just who does he think he is, anyway?

4) Our team is in disarray in drafting and free agency? Again, if we're looking at the record of the GIBBS FRONT OFFICE, it looks pretty good:

Griffin - hit
Springs - hit
M Washington - hit
Portis - hit
C Cooley - hit
S Taylor - hit
Walt Harris - hit
Salavea - big hit for the money
Brunell - miss
Barrow - miss

You can't go holding the GIBBS FRONT OFFICE responsible for the Spurrier regime's horrendous moves. Joe Gibbs calls the shots now, at least judge the moves made UNDER HIM.

5) Did you see the year Champ Bailey had in Denver last year? Would you have been happy paying him $8 - $9 million a year? I sure wouldn't.

6) If you're going to say getting Portis was a mistake, you're just nuts. I don't know if that's what you're saying, so I won't put words in your mouth. But that trade with Denver was pure genius. Bailey got killed all year long. Portis ground out 1300 yards despite being in a misfit scheme. If you want to see how we made out, check him out this year in the zone blocking, stretched out scheme. And plus, look who the Broncos got with that 2nd round pick. Tatum Bell. They were so happy with him, that they felt the need to go sign Ron Dayne and draft Maurice Clarett this year.

The Gibbs front office is the best we've had in years. Count your blessings and actually think about what you're saying.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:11 PM   #35
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by TAFKAS
Really Casserly/Beathard don't have many better lower round picks/cast-offs than Cerrato/Snyder/Gibbs.

Casserly/Beathard you're looking at guys like Clint Didier, Mark Rypien, Timmy Smith (one game...but what a game!), Kurt Gouveia, Raleigh McKenzie, Mark Schlereth, Joe Jacoby

Cerrato/Snyder/Gibbs you're talking about guys like Rock Cartwright, Darnerien McCants, Antonio Pierce, LeMar Marshall, Andre Lott, Ryan Clark, Robert Royal (and we'll see how McCune, Newberry, and Nemo pan out)

I know guys like Cartwright, McCants, and Royal haven't made a profound impact yet. But all have shown flashes and at the very least Royal seems to be in the long term plans of this team

All I'm saying is that I don't get this common perception that the Redskins teams of the 1980s were a bunch of late round picks and free agents. I don't think it was like that at all
Flashes...thats funny.

On your older players list, you are forgetting alot of solid players, not just flashes. All of these guys are late round pick:
Mark Rypien (pro Bowl), Gary Clark (pro Bowl), Charles Mann (pro Bowl), dexter manley (pro Bowl), Mark Murphy (pro Bowl), Mike Nelms (pro Bowl), Tony Peters (pro Bowl), Ricky Sanders (almost Pro Bowl), Don Warren, Jeff Bostic, Monte Coleman, Mel Kaufman, Darryl Grant, Charlie Brown, Curtis Jordan,....
I could go on but I do not have the time. There are more.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:13 PM   #36
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by Redskins8588
First thing, I do remember reading that Gardner did want an extension from which ever team he went to and this was stalling any trade. But what I do not understand is how can Gardner have any demands as such if he is still under contract to us? When we would trade him wouldn't is basicly be his contract to the other team for what ever pick or player in return?
The problem is this, a team that wants to trade for him doesn't want him for one year. His new team would rather lock him up now rather than having him for one year, he has a big year and then he jets for a bigger contract somewhere else.

One of the conditions of a trade would be him agreeing to a new deal with his new team, and if he's not willing to do that, he's not going to be traded, simple as that.

For Gardner it makes sense for him to test the free agent waters where he could possibly get a couple of teams to outbid each other for his services, rather than agree to a new deal via a trade.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:17 PM   #37
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72
The problem is this, a team that wants to trade for him doesn't want him for one year. His new team would rather lock him up now rather than having him for one year, he has a big year and then he jets for a bigger contract somewhere else.

One of the conditions of a trade would be him agreeing to a new deal with his new team, and if he's not willing to do that, he's not going to be traded, simple as that.

For Gardner it makes sense for him to test the free agent waters where he could possibly get a couple of teams to outbid each other for his services, rather than agree to a new deal via a trade.
Thanks that clears things up...
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:21 PM   #38
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by Schneed10
There are so many things wrong with this, it's not even funny......


2) Trading Coles was the best move we made this offseason. We were scheduled to be about $10 million over the 2006 salary cap. Now after trading him away and taking his hit this year, our 2006 looks a lot better. We now have a shot at keeping our core together for the long term, without having to cut key cogs like Jansen. And besides, Coles didn't want to be here. I'd rather let the "core player" who doesn't want to be here walk out the door now, instead of lose a core player next year who does want to be here....

We can agree to disagree, but we DID lose some core guys this year: CB Freddy Smoot and MLB Anotonio Pierce.
Plus we have to make more cuts because we are out of salary cap space to sign our rookies. We were $10M before the Coles for Moss trade. Now we are out of cap space.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:24 PM   #39
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defensewins
Flashes...thats funny.

On your older players list, you are forgetting alot of solid players, not just flashes. All of these guys are late round pick:
Mark Rypien (pro Bowl), Gary Clark (pro Bowl), Charles Mann (pro Bowl), dexter manley (pro Bowl), Mark Murphy (pro Bowl), Mike Nelms (pro Bowl), Tony Peters (pro Bowl), Ricky Sanders (almost Pro Bowl), Don Warren, Jeff Bostic, Monte Coleman, Mel Kaufman, Darryl Grant, Charlie Brown, Curtis Jordan,....
I could go on but I do not have the time. There are more.
You're right I did leave several players out. I'll crawl back into my cave now...

But before I do, I'll just say that I think we need to give our players some time and that the Pro Bowl is a bit of a crap shoot. I mean, if our offense played up to our defense and we had a winning record then Griffin, Springs, Washington, Pierce, among others would have all been Pro Bowlers. It's like when the Skins were winning 11-12 games a year and we'd sent 10 or so players to the pro bowl each year.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:26 PM   #40
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

The Skins are about $1.65M under the cap right now.

Gardner will clear up $2M in cap space and at this point I'm thinking the team's willingness to part with Barrow is more cap related than anything.

Dumping Barrow will free up another $1.74M giving the team plenty of room to get the deals done with the rooks.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:33 PM   #41
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneed10
If we're looking at the record of the GIBBS FRONT OFFICE, it looks pretty good:

Griffin - hit
Springs - hit
M Washington - hit
Portis - hit
C Cooley - hit
S Taylor - hit
Walt Harris - hit
Salavea - big hit for the money
Brunell - miss
Barrow - miss
Best point made on this thread! Awsome job Schneed10! As to Barrow and 50/50, it makes not one dit of bifference to me how it's handled! We simply recoup the salary cap room!
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:40 PM   #42
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

Every single team has its share of bad moves, we're no different. But looking at Schneeds post, you can see that we have had a TON of quality guys brought in. I dont know if I agree with Taylro being a hit, I think the jury is still out on him, but I wouldnt call him a bad pickup either.

Obviously Brunell was a stupid move from the get go, I didnt understand that one form the begining. But I dont think Barrow was that stupid of a move. It wasent even a gamble when we signed him. We were all excited to get a quality, veteran MLB, and things went south with his heath. It happens. I dont think we should crucify the front office for antyhing that happened this offseason.

Its not the front offices fault that L. Coles wanted to leave. We got the best we could for him, and while that situation still irks me, I dont blame the front office for anything.

Its not the front offices fault that Sean Taylor did what he did. They cant follow these guys every hour of every day, they are supposed to be adults.

Its not the front offices fault that Lavar Arrington's agents are idiots.

With that, I dont understand where this "horrific offseason" has come from. This was the offseason we have all wanted, some low key signings, and not trying to bring in over the hill losers. I'm not pissed at our front office for anything that happend this year.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:47 PM   #43
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

it's not that im pissed at the front office, i am happy we had a low key offseason, but it's more what happened off the field during the offseason. the arrington thing, coles hating the team, gardner requesting a trade, taylor getting arrested, not resigning smoot and pierce, it's a whole combination. i would love to have an offseason where we are low key, where we didn't have any off the field distractions either.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:54 PM   #44
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

Yeah I suppose we have to wait and see how Taylor plays this year, and whether or not his legal situation is a distraction. And certainly, if he goes to jail for three years, the drafting of Sean Taylor would be the ultimate "miss". But from what I've read, it sounds like Taylor will be acquitted or the case will be dropped, since the state's evidence is a little on the weak side.

Even with Taylor's trouble though, he still was a first alternate for the Pro Bowl in his ROOKIE season, and the players in front of him were named Brian Dawkins, Roy Williams, and Michael Lewis. Pretty good company. I'm counting on him improving and continuing to play for the Skins.

Besides, player acquisition NEVER tells the full story. We love to look back on the players the front offices acquired and say well that one worked out, or that other one was a bust... etcetera. But the quality of the coaching and the ability of the coaching staff to teach those acquired players how to play is just as important as anything. It's no surprise that just about every player acquired by Spurrier was a bust, he couldn't teach them diddily poo. Now look at the defensive guys brought in; even guys previously viewed as schmucks like Joe Salavea'a are tearing it up thanks to quality instruction and coaching. Even guys previously buried on the Skins roster started to shine, like Pierce, Ryan Clark, and Lemar Marshall.

The NFL is a coach's league, player acquisition will only take you as far as the coaches allow it to, after all those acquired players have to fit into and perform in the coaching scheme. Changes to the front office are not the answer; time is the answer. Just give Gibbs a little time, he'll have a winner before we know it.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:54 PM   #45
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by Gmanc711
I dont understand where this "horrific offseason" has come from. This was the offseason we have all wanted, some low key signings, and not trying to bring in over the hill losers. I'm not pissed at our front office for anything that happend this year.
If the past has taught us nothing else it's that we shouldn't judge the offseason until the next season (or two) has actually been played
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