Warpath  

Home | Forums | Salary Cap Info | Shop | Donate | Stay Connected




Go Back   Warpath > Redskins Forums > Redskins Locker Room


do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

Redskins Locker Room


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-21-2005, 01:10 PM   #46
Special Teams
 
crlesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Age: 38
Posts: 142
Re: do we show our hand to soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneed10
The NFL is a coach's league, player acquisition will only take you as far as the coaches allow it to, after all those acquired players have to fit into and perform in the coaching scheme. Changes to the front office are not the answer; time is the answer. Just give Gibbs a little time, he'll have a winner before we know it.
Well said. Team chemistry is the factor that takes good teams through the playoffs. Team chemistry can only be built with time, as more or less talented players learn their niches in the system and become accountable to their teammates and coaches. We had it on defense last year. We just have to build it on offense with the players we have.

As to front office decisions... those are best judged in hindsight, as has been stated. But as Schneed so aptly described above, player acquisition is given too much attention by the fans. If we had won a few more of the close games last year, gotten into the playoffs, and somehow managed to go all the way, the Brunell situation would be perceived completely differently. Everyone would be talking about the great leadership and locker-room presence he brought to the team.

It all changes when you have team chemistry and string together wins. And I assert that the personnel doesn't matter as much as we think.
crlesh is offline   Reply With Quote

Advertisements
Old 07-21-2005, 01:10 PM   #47
I like big (_|_)s.
 
TheMalcolmConnection's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Lexington, Virginia
Age: 32
Posts: 17,524
Re: do we show our hand to soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmanc711
Every single team has its share of bad moves, we're no different. But looking at Schneeds post, you can see that we have had a TON of quality guys brought in. I dont know if I agree with Taylro being a hit, I think the jury is still out on him, but I wouldnt call him a bad pickup either.

Obviously Brunell was a stupid move from the get go, I didnt understand that one form the begining. But I dont think Barrow was that stupid of a move. It wasent even a gamble when we signed him. We were all excited to get a quality, veteran MLB, and things went south with his heath. It happens. I dont think we should crucify the front office for antyhing that happened this offseason.

Its not the front offices fault that L. Coles wanted to leave. We got the best we could for him, and while that situation still irks me, I dont blame the front office for anything.

Its not the front offices fault that Sean Taylor did what he did. They cant follow these guys every hour of every day, they are supposed to be adults.

Its not the front offices fault that Lavar Arrington's agents are idiots.

With that, I dont understand where this "horrific offseason" has come from. This was the offseason we have all wanted, some low key signings, and not trying to bring in over the hill losers. I'm not pissed at our front office for anything that happend this year.
Also having an offseason like this brings out some heavy media bias too. I mean it always seems its lose-lose when it comes to us.
__________________
Regret nothing. At one time it was exactly what you wanted.
TheMalcolmConnection is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:13 PM   #48
Franchise Player
 
FRPLG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Age: 35
Posts: 9,951
Re: do we show our hand to soon

I love how this argument comes up every couple weeks. It's been overdue for a while now.
I can't see how anyone could disagree with the getting rid of Coles deal. He didn't want to be here and the Skins didn't want him. Both Gibbs and Coles attempted to makeup and I think in the end you have to admin both guys are stand up guys with a decent amount character. It wasn't going to work. Now I'll jump on the band wagon who quibble with making the trade to pick up Moss and wasting that cap space but I'll also admit that's a move that none of us can possibly judge as good or bad yet. My gut says we didn't pull it off well but we still need to play the games.
I am convinced that Barrow was potentially our BEST pickup last season. He was a multiple time pro bowler who led his team in tackles for 3+ years. He had monster seasons and didn't miss games. Plain and simple it should have worked. 9 times out of 10 that move works. The Skins got stuck with the 1 out 10 time that it backfired. Luck of the draw.
Brunell was a horible pick up and we all knew it when it happened. That was a serious brain fart for ole coach gibbs. That's one strike but it's the only strike you can attribute as a mistake in judgement. Now this year we have a couple candidates for the brain fart category. Giving up Smoot and Pierce could be problems BUT I'd suggest that Greg williams did a fantastic job limited talent last year and there's no reason to suspect any different this year with a similar level of talent.

Simply the jury is still out on this past off season and it's way too premature to suggest we need a GM. Lets get through some games before we start making declarations.

Now what other good topics can we discuss that are past due for some rumbling. Spurrier anyone?
FRPLG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:15 PM   #49
Special Teams
 
jacobyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Age: 35
Posts: 172
Re: do we show our hand to soon

Isn't Barrow's release fee about the same as his salary for this year?
jacobyfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:18 PM   #50
I like big (_|_)s.
 
TheMalcolmConnection's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Lexington, Virginia
Age: 32
Posts: 17,524
Re: do we show our hand to soon

Maybe Canuck can shed some light on that one... You around buddy?

Canuck, will this be an overall positive or negative move on the salary cap?
__________________
Regret nothing. At one time it was exactly what you wanted.
TheMalcolmConnection is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:20 PM   #51
Playmaker
 
celts32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hackettstown NJ
Age: 43
Posts: 2,656
Re: do we show our hand to soon

6) If you're going to say getting Portis was a mistake, you're just nuts. I don't know if that's what you're saying, so I won't put words in your mouth. But that trade with Denver was pure genius. Bailey got killed all year long. Portis ground out 1300 yards despite being in a misfit scheme. If you want to see how we made out, check him out this year in the zone blocking, stretched out scheme. And plus, look who the Broncos got with that 2nd round pick. Tatum Bell. They were so happy with him, that they felt the need to go sign Ron Dayne and draft Maurice Clarett this year.

The Gibbs front office is the best we've had in years. Count your blessings and actually think about what you're saying.[/QUOTE]

First off I love Gibbs and would never call for his head under any circumstances. However, I do think the Portis trade was a mistake. Not that I think we needed Bailey. I just think the Redskins given the market overpaid for a RB. Edge & Alexander can not even bring a #3 pick back in trade right now, yet we traded Bailey and a #2 pick for Portis only 1 year ago. And to top it off he is not even a good fit for the offense that Gibbs wanted to run. Alexander would have been the perfect fit, but the Redskins can't get him becasue they already invested 50 million in Portis. Look maybe Portis will have a great year this year with the changes to the offense, but the fact is we still could have gotten a top 5 RB in the NFL for less than half of what we gave up for Portis. Does even the biggest Portis fan out there think he is worth over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge?
__________________
Section 115 Row 23

“Goal line, goal line. I-left, tight wing, 70 chip on white.”

http://victorybeer.com/
celts32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:24 PM   #52
Special Teams
 
jacobyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Age: 35
Posts: 172
Re: do we show our hand to soon

According to the cap info, it is. 2.157 total hit this year, 2.083 release fee. If that is the case, then this is almost certainly coming from Barrow and not the team. It would indicate that the situation is likely one where he doesn't think he's going to win the starting job and would like one more decent signing bonus (2-3 mil) from someone before he retires. Or he thinks he can still play and thinks he can start somewhere. If he's able to play, the team wouldn't release him if he wanted to be here and play backup. Keeping a vet like that on your team is worth the 70k difference if he can play.
jacobyfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:31 PM   #53
Uncle Phil
 
SmootSmack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 44,678
Re: do we show our hand to soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Folks, Im looking at the HISTORY of the front office over the last 5-8 years with Cerrato and Snyder at the helm. Now its Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder.

"I think we ought to implement a new rule that there can be no bitching and moaning unless there is proven reason to."

Well guess what jackass, Ive got a reason to! Look at the personell moves these idiots have made, that's why we are in the hole we are in. Thanks to Cerrato and Snyder, the following free agents and drafts have built our team (not).
No reason for us to be calling each other idiots, jackasses, meatheads, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Stephen Alexander (2nd round 1998)
Skip Hicks (3rd round 1998)
Mark Fischer (5th round 1998)
Nate Stimson (4th round 1999)
Derek G. Smith (5th round 1999)
Lloyd Harrison (3rd round 2000)
Michael Moore (4th round 2000)
Quincy Sanders (5th round 2000)
Sage Rosenfels (4th Round 2001)
Michael Moore found his true calling making politically charged movies!

Quote:
Our middle round picks SUCKED for years!!! This is partially the reason we can't build a team. Secondly, lets look at the free agents Danny Boy and Vinny Cerrato have brought in:

Mark Carrier
Deion Sanders
Bruce Smith
Marco Coleman
Irving Fryar
Jeff George
Andre Reed
Dana Stubblefield
Jerimiah Trotter
Trotter was a young, all-pro linebacker entering his prime when he got here. Who was to know he'd tear up his knee. I don't think Fryar or Reed had any sort of financial impact on the team really. Stubblefield was a bust. The rest were brought in here basically to be quick fixes, get us that elusive ring we fans had grown accustomed to but hadn't sniffed in years. It was a poorly planned quick fix solution by Snydato (Snyder and Cerrato) but also poor coaching factors in as does Eddie Murray and all those other kickers missing them damn field goals that year.

Quote:
I'll bet we are still paying on some of those loser underachievers! Now, some of you have been saying, well, siging Barrow was a great move at the time because he had no history of injury. To that I say, he was freakin 34 years old, what the hell did you freakin expect? A middle linebacker is 34 years old and we sign him, not to the verteran minimum, but to a 6 year $13 million dollar contract with a 2.5 million dollar signing bonus! Give me a break, its not like he was a kicker, he was a freakin middle linebacker, one of the most physically demanding positions on the field and we signed a 34 year old and gave him a BIG contract for his age. Oh Ive got a reason to bitch and moan, all Redskin fans do.
I guess Crazy Canuck can respond to this portion and whether or not salary cap wise this was really that big a hit. I think they, understandably, expected 2 to 3 years of solid production from Barrow based on his history. And who knows, it still might happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Show me a coach who has won a superbowl with complete say over personnell decisions. It hasn't happened. Gibbs, Snyder and Cerrato sold the farm for Brunnell, and traded a 3rd round pick. Then, when they couldve done the Ports/Bailey deal straight up, they threw in another pick. Then they signed a 34 year old free agent middle linebacker and overpaid for him. Then they mishandled the Rod Gardner situation AND the Laverneous Coles situation. So there is evidence that we need a GM.
Mike Shanahan? I'm actually not even positive about that one. Didn't know we could have done the Portis/Bailey deal straight up.
__________________
You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You
SmootSmack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:38 PM   #54
Playmaker
 
Redskins8588's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Ridgway, PA
Age: 35
Posts: 2,519
Re: do we show our hand to soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by celts32
First off I love Gibbs and would never call for his head under any circumstances. However, I do think the Portis trade was a mistake. Not that I think we needed Bailey. I just think the Redskins given the market overpaid for a RB. Edge & Alexander can not even bring a #3 pick back in trade right now, yet we traded Bailey and a #2 pick for Portis only 1 year ago. And to top it off he is not even a good fit for the offense that Gibbs wanted to run. Alexander would have been the perfect fit, but the Redskins can't get him becasue they already invested 50 million in Portis. Look maybe Portis will have a great year this year with the changes to the offense, but the fact is we still could have gotten a top 5 RB in the NFL for less than half of what we gave up for Portis. Does even the biggest Portis fan out there think he is worth over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge?
Yeah, I do think that Portis is worth more than over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge. Why, you may ask? Because Alexander and James are both 27 years old, and as stats show us in the NFL a RB hits his decline when he is around 30. So, that being said, and if the stats hold true, then that would mean that we would only get 3 good years before Alexander and James start to fall off. Where Portis is only 23 years old, and if you go by that rule of thumb we should get 7 good years out of Portis. I think that people forget that Portis is still so young. But that is my opinion.
__________________
"I am the best at what I do, and what I do isn't very nice" - Sean Taylor
Redskins8588 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:41 PM   #55
RG Glee
 
Schneed10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Newtown Square, PA
Age: 35
Posts: 8,303
Re: do we show our hand to soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by celts32
First off I love Gibbs and would never call for his head under any circumstances. However, I do think the Portis trade was a mistake. Not that I think we needed Bailey. I just think the Redskins given the market overpaid for a RB. Edge & Alexander can not even bring a #3 pick back in trade right now, yet we traded Bailey and a #2 pick for Portis only 1 year ago. And to top it off he is not even a good fit for the offense that Gibbs wanted to run. Alexander would have been the perfect fit, but the Redskins can't get him becasue they already invested 50 million in Portis. Look maybe Portis will have a great year this year with the changes to the offense, but the fact is we still could have gotten a top 5 RB in the NFL for less than half of what we gave up for Portis. Does even the biggest Portis fan out there think he is worth over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge?
OK fair enough, Alexander would be a better fit for running the counter treys and pounding the ball inside. But I don't really understand your argument. If you didn't trade Bailey for Portis, what would you have done with Bailey? He was about to command a $9 million hit to our salary cap. If you had kept Bailey you wouldn't have the cap room to acquire an Alexander. And if you had traded Bailey for Alexander, you still would have been trading Bailey for a guy who you mention can't even fetch a 3rd rounder this year.

Secondly, where do you come up with this: "Does even the biggest Portis fan out there think he is worth over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge?"

If we acquired Edge or Alexander, they would have demanded a new contract just like Portis did, just like Rod Gardner is, and just like Coles demanded from the Jets when we traded him for Moss. When players get traded, they want new contracts. So if we did trade Bailey for Edge or Alexander, we still would have ponied up $50 million for them, just like we did for Portis.

I honestly would rather have Sean Alexander than Portis, the guy is a machine. I'd be ecstatic giving up Bailey and a second rounder for Alexander, just as I am for Portis. Keep in mind, Bailey would have been a much bigger cap hit than Alexander. Trading Bailey freed up the room to fit Portis, Sean Springs, and Cornelius Griffin all into the cap space that Bailey would have occupied. You have to look at the whole picture.
Schneed10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:50 PM   #56
Special Teams
 
jacobyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Age: 35
Posts: 172
Re: do we show our hand to soon

I will again state that given the cap situation I can see, it would seem that Barrow is wanting to look around, and not the staff wanting him to go.
jacobyfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:51 PM   #57
Franchise Player
 
FRPLG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Age: 35
Posts: 9,951
Re: do we show our hand to soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Well guess what jackass, Ive got a reason to! Look at the personell moves these idiots have made, that's why we are in the hole we are in. Thanks to Cerrato and Snyder, the following free agents and drafts have built our team (not)...

Our middle round picks SUCKED for years!!! This is partially the reason we can't build a team. Secondly, lets look at the free agents Danny Boy and Vinny Cerrato have brought in...
It is well documented that Gibbs is the personell guy now so your points about the reign of Cerrato and Synder as the defacto GM are moot(although I'd agree they are well founded points in past seasons)

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
I'll bet we are still paying on some of those loser underachievers!
You'd lose that bet since we are not paying any them. Of course they WERE drags for a while but then again I already said I basically agree with your assesment of Snyderatto.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Now, some of you have been saying, well, siging Barrow was a great move at the time because he had no history of injury. To that I say, he was freakin 34 years old, what the hell did you freakin expect? A middle linebacker is 34 years old and we sign him, not to the verteran minimum, but to a 6 year $13 million dollar contract with a 2.5 million dollar signing bonus! Give me a break, its not like he was a kicker, he was a freakin middle linebacker, one of the most physically demanding positions on the field and we signed a 34 year old and gave him a BIG contract for his age. Oh Ive got a reason to bitch and moan, all Redskin fans do.
Well we'll just disagree on this I guess. I personally believe it was reasonable to expect him to remain relatively healthy for 3 years. The contract was not "BIG" for his age as you suggest though. It was a reasonable contract for a multiple time pro bowler with no injury history at all. In fact It was a bargain if he ends up playing near the level he played in his last year with the Giants for the three year life that the contract was meant for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
"If we make the damn super bowl will all you shut the f$%^ up? Actually if we make the super bowl will you apologize for being idiots? Not saying you are idiots but you could turn out to be totally wrong(making you and idot) or right(making you a genius) but unless you are psychic then stop proclaiming we need to fix a problem we don;t even knwo we if we have."

Nice. You disagree with me so you attack me instead of looking for a counter argument.
The heck??
-First:it wasn't directed solely at you. I thought it was pretty clear that it was a general statement towards those with certain unfounded pessimistic views. Of which you appear to be one in this case.
-Second:it wasn't an attack at all. No where did I call anyone a name. I implied that I thought you all were wrong and that if you were wrong I would feel justified in calling you all idiots but I was careful to state that you indeed could end up being right and therefore geniuses. I actually said 'Not saying you are idiots'.
-Third: I provided multiple arguments but apparently in your haste to reply you seemed to forget that. Funny how you spent most of your post attempting to debunk my arguments but during the typing of that one sentence you conviently ignored what you had been doing this since that wouldn't jive with your premise that I didn't provide 'counter aguments'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Show me a coach who has won a superbowl with complete say over personnell decisions. It hasn't happened.
Stellar point and one scares me in its truthfulness. Hopefully Gibbs will turn the tide on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Then, when they couldve done the Ports/Bailey deal straight up, they threw in another pick.
Huh? So they actually just GAVE denver another pick for no reason? I bet Denver was pretty happy when the contract showed up and there was a phantom pick included. This has been mentioned in some places but has never been substantiated that Denver would have done the deal without the pick. Pure rumor and is therefore much less relavant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Then they mishandled the Rod Gardner situation AND the Laverneous Coles situation.
Still not one person has said how these situiations should have been handled differently in this whole thread. I am still waiting for someone to say what should have been done instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
So there is evidence that we need a GM.
Not much of that is really evidence since it is hard to argue that any real personell mistakes were made outside of the Brunell decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
This is not a site where we all drink the kool aid and say how great we are, we should be able to disagree without insulting one another.
It's also not a site where unrelenting pessimism goes unnoticed. There are a few of those here. I can't say whether you fall in this category but your post surely lumped in there at least temporarily(for the life of this thread). I personally get angry at those who purport to "keep it real" when all they do is propogate pessimistic views of the team the supposedly love. I wouldn't for a moment include you in this distinguished (and small) group but your views on the FO mirror their's so my frame of mind was probably somehwat skewed. I'll apologize if I said anything that could be construed as an insult. It was not meant in any way to be such. I in fact try incredibly hard NOT to insult people here and I feel like I honored that sentiment in my original post. I simply think you are incredibly wrong in much of your argument.
FRPLG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 02:02 PM   #58
Special Teams
 
jacobyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Age: 35
Posts: 172
Re: do we show our hand to soon

This makes me think of Philly fans who will find ANY EXCUSE to boo. I remember watching a Eagles game where they were up 3 TDs in the third quarter and the punter shanked one about 25-30 yards. The whole place errupted in boos. Of course our situation isn't analogous, really. But it just makes me think of their tendency to try and find the absolute worst in the situation. I remember when they went down to the bucs in the championship game at home by a few points and the whole place went almost dead silent for the rest of the game. It was like everyone was just thinking, "well here we go again!"
jacobyfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 02:12 PM   #59
Franchise Player
 
FRPLG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Age: 35
Posts: 9,951
Re: do we show our hand to soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacobyfan
According to the cap info, it is. 2.157 total hit this year, 2.083 release fee. If that is the case, then this is almost certainly coming from Barrow and not the team. It would indicate that the situation is likely one where he doesn't think he's going to win the starting job and would like one more decent signing bonus (2-3 mil) from someone before he retires. Or he thinks he can still play and thinks he can start somewhere. If he's able to play, the team wouldn't release him if he wanted to be here and play backup. Keeping a vet like that on your team is worth the 70k difference if he can play.
You misunderstanding those numbers. His release fee for this year would have been 2.083 if he had been cut before June 1. Because any cutting would obviously happen after June 1 then his release fee is $416,667 (signingbonus/6). This is not really a release fee rather it is the sb we paid him for this season(in theory). The release goes to next year where the remaining signing bonus is accelrated to that year. His relase for for next year is 1.67. He'd save us 1.7 this year.
FRPLG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 02:40 PM   #60
Special Teams
 
jacobyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Age: 35
Posts: 172
Re: do we show our hand to soon

Thanks for clearing that up. that's why I asked the question earlier
jacobyfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site is not officially affiliated with the Washington Redskins or the NFL.
Page generated in 0.40770 seconds with 9 queries

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25