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do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

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Old 07-21-2005, 01:54 PM   #46
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmanc711
I dont understand where this "horrific offseason" has come from. This was the offseason we have all wanted, some low key signings, and not trying to bring in over the hill losers. I'm not pissed at our front office for anything that happend this year.
If the past has taught us nothing else it's that we shouldn't judge the offseason until the next season (or two) has actually been played
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:10 PM   #47
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by Schneed10
The NFL is a coach's league, player acquisition will only take you as far as the coaches allow it to, after all those acquired players have to fit into and perform in the coaching scheme. Changes to the front office are not the answer; time is the answer. Just give Gibbs a little time, he'll have a winner before we know it.
Well said. Team chemistry is the factor that takes good teams through the playoffs. Team chemistry can only be built with time, as more or less talented players learn their niches in the system and become accountable to their teammates and coaches. We had it on defense last year. We just have to build it on offense with the players we have.

As to front office decisions... those are best judged in hindsight, as has been stated. But as Schneed so aptly described above, player acquisition is given too much attention by the fans. If we had won a few more of the close games last year, gotten into the playoffs, and somehow managed to go all the way, the Brunell situation would be perceived completely differently. Everyone would be talking about the great leadership and locker-room presence he brought to the team.

It all changes when you have team chemistry and string together wins. And I assert that the personnel doesn't matter as much as we think.
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:10 PM   #48
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by Gmanc711
Every single team has its share of bad moves, we're no different. But looking at Schneeds post, you can see that we have had a TON of quality guys brought in. I dont know if I agree with Taylro being a hit, I think the jury is still out on him, but I wouldnt call him a bad pickup either.

Obviously Brunell was a stupid move from the get go, I didnt understand that one form the begining. But I dont think Barrow was that stupid of a move. It wasent even a gamble when we signed him. We were all excited to get a quality, veteran MLB, and things went south with his heath. It happens. I dont think we should crucify the front office for antyhing that happened this offseason.

Its not the front offices fault that L. Coles wanted to leave. We got the best we could for him, and while that situation still irks me, I dont blame the front office for anything.

Its not the front offices fault that Sean Taylor did what he did. They cant follow these guys every hour of every day, they are supposed to be adults.

Its not the front offices fault that Lavar Arrington's agents are idiots.

With that, I dont understand where this "horrific offseason" has come from. This was the offseason we have all wanted, some low key signings, and not trying to bring in over the hill losers. I'm not pissed at our front office for anything that happend this year.
Also having an offseason like this brings out some heavy media bias too. I mean it always seems its lose-lose when it comes to us.
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:13 PM   #49
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by FRPLG
Really?
Then by all means lets make sure the skins change everything they do so that aren't the laughing stocks on all these websites. I mean that's what they should care about right? Being the laughing stock of websites. Yeam that proves they need a GM. I love how everyone is bashing the decisions from this off season and they haven't even played a game yet. I think we ought to implement a new rule that there can be no bitching and moaning unless there is proven reason to. I am not saying that they have done perfectly this off season. I am saying that not one of us has any idea how these moves will pan out. If we make the damn super bowl will all you shut the f$%^ up? Actually if we make the super bowl will you apologize for being idiots? Not saying you are idiots but you could turn out to be totally wrong(making you and idot) or right(making you a genius) but unless you are psychic then stop proclaiming we need to fix a problem we don;t even knwo we if we have.
Folks, Im looking at the HISTORY of the front office over the last 5-8 years with Cerrato and Snyder at the helm. Now its Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder.

"I think we ought to implement a new rule that there can be no bitching and moaning unless there is proven reason to."

Well guess what jackass, Ive got a reason to! Look at the personell moves these idiots have made, that's why we are in the hole we are in. Thanks to Cerrato and Snyder, the following free agents and drafts have built our team (not).

Stephen Alexander (2nd round 1998)
Skip Hicks (3rd round 1998)
Mark Fischer (5th round 1998)
Nate Stimson (4th round 1999)
Derek G. Smith (5th round 1999)
Lloyd Harrison (3rd round 2000)
Michael Moore (4th round 2000)
Quincy Sanders (5th round 2000)
Sage Rosenfels (4th Round 2001)

Our middle round picks SUCKED for years!!! This is partially the reason we can't build a team. Secondly, lets look at the free agents Danny Boy and Vinny Cerrato have brought in:

Mark Carrier
Deion Sanders
Bruce Smith
Marco Coleman
Irving Fryar
Jeff George
Andre Reed
Dana Stubblefield
Jerimiah Trotter

I'll bet we are still paying on some of those loser underachievers! Now, some of you have been saying, well, siging Barrow was a great move at the time because he had no history of injury. To that I say, he was freakin 34 years old, what the hell did you freakin expect? A middle linebacker is 34 years old and we sign him, not to the verteran minimum, but to a 6 year $13 million dollar contract with a 2.5 million dollar signing bonus! Give me a break, its not like he was a kicker, he was a freakin middle linebacker, one of the most physically demanding positions on the field and we signed a 34 year old and gave him a BIG contract for his age. Oh Ive got a reason to bitch and moan, all Redskin fans do.

"If we make the damn super bowl will all you shut the f$%^ up? Actually if we make the super bowl will you apologize for being idiots? Not saying you are idiots but you could turn out to be totally wrong(making you and idot) or right(making you a genius) but unless you are psychic then stop proclaiming we need to fix a problem we don;t even knwo we if we have."

Nice. You disagree with me so you attack me instead of looking for a counter argument. Gibbs does have this team going the right direction, but he is far from bullet proof in his role as personnell evaluator. Show me a coach who has won a superbowl with complete say over personnell decisions. It hasn't happened. Gibbs, Snyder and Cerrato sold the farm for Brunnell, and traded a 3rd round pick. Then, when they couldve done the Ports/Bailey deal straight up, they threw in another pick. Then they signed a 34 year old free agent middle linebacker and overpaid for him. Then they mishandled the Rod Gardner situation AND the Laverneous Coles situation. So there is evidence that we need a GM.

I love Joe Gibbs. He is one of the best coaches of all time, but he should have a full time GM, that's all Im saying. This is not a site where we all drink the kool aid and say how great we are, we should be able to disagree without insulting one another.
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:13 PM   #50
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

I love how this argument comes up every couple weeks. It's been overdue for a while now.
I can't see how anyone could disagree with the getting rid of Coles deal. He didn't want to be here and the Skins didn't want him. Both Gibbs and Coles attempted to makeup and I think in the end you have to admin both guys are stand up guys with a decent amount character. It wasn't going to work. Now I'll jump on the band wagon who quibble with making the trade to pick up Moss and wasting that cap space but I'll also admit that's a move that none of us can possibly judge as good or bad yet. My gut says we didn't pull it off well but we still need to play the games.
I am convinced that Barrow was potentially our BEST pickup last season. He was a multiple time pro bowler who led his team in tackles for 3+ years. He had monster seasons and didn't miss games. Plain and simple it should have worked. 9 times out of 10 that move works. The Skins got stuck with the 1 out 10 time that it backfired. Luck of the draw.
Brunell was a horible pick up and we all knew it when it happened. That was a serious brain fart for ole coach gibbs. That's one strike but it's the only strike you can attribute as a mistake in judgement. Now this year we have a couple candidates for the brain fart category. Giving up Smoot and Pierce could be problems BUT I'd suggest that Greg williams did a fantastic job limited talent last year and there's no reason to suspect any different this year with a similar level of talent.

Simply the jury is still out on this past off season and it's way too premature to suggest we need a GM. Lets get through some games before we start making declarations.

Now what other good topics can we discuss that are past due for some rumbling. Spurrier anyone?
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:15 PM   #51
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

Isn't Barrow's release fee about the same as his salary for this year?
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:18 PM   #52
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

Maybe Canuck can shed some light on that one... You around buddy?

Canuck, will this be an overall positive or negative move on the salary cap?
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:20 PM   #53
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

6) If you're going to say getting Portis was a mistake, you're just nuts. I don't know if that's what you're saying, so I won't put words in your mouth. But that trade with Denver was pure genius. Bailey got killed all year long. Portis ground out 1300 yards despite being in a misfit scheme. If you want to see how we made out, check him out this year in the zone blocking, stretched out scheme. And plus, look who the Broncos got with that 2nd round pick. Tatum Bell. They were so happy with him, that they felt the need to go sign Ron Dayne and draft Maurice Clarett this year.

The Gibbs front office is the best we've had in years. Count your blessings and actually think about what you're saying.[/QUOTE]

First off I love Gibbs and would never call for his head under any circumstances. However, I do think the Portis trade was a mistake. Not that I think we needed Bailey. I just think the Redskins given the market overpaid for a RB. Edge & Alexander can not even bring a #3 pick back in trade right now, yet we traded Bailey and a #2 pick for Portis only 1 year ago. And to top it off he is not even a good fit for the offense that Gibbs wanted to run. Alexander would have been the perfect fit, but the Redskins can't get him becasue they already invested 50 million in Portis. Look maybe Portis will have a great year this year with the changes to the offense, but the fact is we still could have gotten a top 5 RB in the NFL for less than half of what we gave up for Portis. Does even the biggest Portis fan out there think he is worth over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge?
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:24 PM   #54
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

According to the cap info, it is. 2.157 total hit this year, 2.083 release fee. If that is the case, then this is almost certainly coming from Barrow and not the team. It would indicate that the situation is likely one where he doesn't think he's going to win the starting job and would like one more decent signing bonus (2-3 mil) from someone before he retires. Or he thinks he can still play and thinks he can start somewhere. If he's able to play, the team wouldn't release him if he wanted to be here and play backup. Keeping a vet like that on your team is worth the 70k difference if he can play.
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:31 PM   #55
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Folks, Im looking at the HISTORY of the front office over the last 5-8 years with Cerrato and Snyder at the helm. Now its Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder.

"I think we ought to implement a new rule that there can be no bitching and moaning unless there is proven reason to."

Well guess what jackass, Ive got a reason to! Look at the personell moves these idiots have made, that's why we are in the hole we are in. Thanks to Cerrato and Snyder, the following free agents and drafts have built our team (not).
No reason for us to be calling each other idiots, jackasses, meatheads, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Stephen Alexander (2nd round 1998)
Skip Hicks (3rd round 1998)
Mark Fischer (5th round 1998)
Nate Stimson (4th round 1999)
Derek G. Smith (5th round 1999)
Lloyd Harrison (3rd round 2000)
Michael Moore (4th round 2000)
Quincy Sanders (5th round 2000)
Sage Rosenfels (4th Round 2001)
Michael Moore found his true calling making politically charged movies!

Quote:
Our middle round picks SUCKED for years!!! This is partially the reason we can't build a team. Secondly, lets look at the free agents Danny Boy and Vinny Cerrato have brought in:

Mark Carrier
Deion Sanders
Bruce Smith
Marco Coleman
Irving Fryar
Jeff George
Andre Reed
Dana Stubblefield
Jerimiah Trotter
Trotter was a young, all-pro linebacker entering his prime when he got here. Who was to know he'd tear up his knee. I don't think Fryar or Reed had any sort of financial impact on the team really. Stubblefield was a bust. The rest were brought in here basically to be quick fixes, get us that elusive ring we fans had grown accustomed to but hadn't sniffed in years. It was a poorly planned quick fix solution by Snydato (Snyder and Cerrato) but also poor coaching factors in as does Eddie Murray and all those other kickers missing them damn field goals that year.

Quote:
I'll bet we are still paying on some of those loser underachievers! Now, some of you have been saying, well, siging Barrow was a great move at the time because he had no history of injury. To that I say, he was freakin 34 years old, what the hell did you freakin expect? A middle linebacker is 34 years old and we sign him, not to the verteran minimum, but to a 6 year $13 million dollar contract with a 2.5 million dollar signing bonus! Give me a break, its not like he was a kicker, he was a freakin middle linebacker, one of the most physically demanding positions on the field and we signed a 34 year old and gave him a BIG contract for his age. Oh Ive got a reason to bitch and moan, all Redskin fans do.
I guess Crazy Canuck can respond to this portion and whether or not salary cap wise this was really that big a hit. I think they, understandably, expected 2 to 3 years of solid production from Barrow based on his history. And who knows, it still might happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Show me a coach who has won a superbowl with complete say over personnell decisions. It hasn't happened. Gibbs, Snyder and Cerrato sold the farm for Brunnell, and traded a 3rd round pick. Then, when they couldve done the Ports/Bailey deal straight up, they threw in another pick. Then they signed a 34 year old free agent middle linebacker and overpaid for him. Then they mishandled the Rod Gardner situation AND the Laverneous Coles situation. So there is evidence that we need a GM.
Mike Shanahan? I'm actually not even positive about that one. Didn't know we could have done the Portis/Bailey deal straight up.
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:35 PM   #56
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

I don't think Shanahan had complete say so over all personnell until after he won his SBs, but I could be wrong.
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:38 PM   #57
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by celts32
First off I love Gibbs and would never call for his head under any circumstances. However, I do think the Portis trade was a mistake. Not that I think we needed Bailey. I just think the Redskins given the market overpaid for a RB. Edge & Alexander can not even bring a #3 pick back in trade right now, yet we traded Bailey and a #2 pick for Portis only 1 year ago. And to top it off he is not even a good fit for the offense that Gibbs wanted to run. Alexander would have been the perfect fit, but the Redskins can't get him becasue they already invested 50 million in Portis. Look maybe Portis will have a great year this year with the changes to the offense, but the fact is we still could have gotten a top 5 RB in the NFL for less than half of what we gave up for Portis. Does even the biggest Portis fan out there think he is worth over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge?
Yeah, I do think that Portis is worth more than over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge. Why, you may ask? Because Alexander and James are both 27 years old, and as stats show us in the NFL a RB hits his decline when he is around 30. So, that being said, and if the stats hold true, then that would mean that we would only get 3 good years before Alexander and James start to fall off. Where Portis is only 23 years old, and if you go by that rule of thumb we should get 7 good years out of Portis. I think that people forget that Portis is still so young. But that is my opinion.
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:41 PM   #58
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by celts32
First off I love Gibbs and would never call for his head under any circumstances. However, I do think the Portis trade was a mistake. Not that I think we needed Bailey. I just think the Redskins given the market overpaid for a RB. Edge & Alexander can not even bring a #3 pick back in trade right now, yet we traded Bailey and a #2 pick for Portis only 1 year ago. And to top it off he is not even a good fit for the offense that Gibbs wanted to run. Alexander would have been the perfect fit, but the Redskins can't get him becasue they already invested 50 million in Portis. Look maybe Portis will have a great year this year with the changes to the offense, but the fact is we still could have gotten a top 5 RB in the NFL for less than half of what we gave up for Portis. Does even the biggest Portis fan out there think he is worth over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge?
OK fair enough, Alexander would be a better fit for running the counter treys and pounding the ball inside. But I don't really understand your argument. If you didn't trade Bailey for Portis, what would you have done with Bailey? He was about to command a $9 million hit to our salary cap. If you had kept Bailey you wouldn't have the cap room to acquire an Alexander. And if you had traded Bailey for Alexander, you still would have been trading Bailey for a guy who you mention can't even fetch a 3rd rounder this year.

Secondly, where do you come up with this: "Does even the biggest Portis fan out there think he is worth over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge?"

If we acquired Edge or Alexander, they would have demanded a new contract just like Portis did, just like Rod Gardner is, and just like Coles demanded from the Jets when we traded him for Moss. When players get traded, they want new contracts. So if we did trade Bailey for Edge or Alexander, we still would have ponied up $50 million for them, just like we did for Portis.

I honestly would rather have Sean Alexander than Portis, the guy is a machine. I'd be ecstatic giving up Bailey and a second rounder for Alexander, just as I am for Portis. Keep in mind, Bailey would have been a much bigger cap hit than Alexander. Trading Bailey freed up the room to fit Portis, Sean Springs, and Cornelius Griffin all into the cap space that Bailey would have occupied. You have to look at the whole picture.
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:48 PM   #59
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

I don't see how allowing a player to look for a trade is tipping your hand? How else do trades get done? If you just release him what's the difference? Except now you know for sure that you will recieve nothing for him, Gardner has been a big problem in all this he believes he's a TO talent, and regardless of whether or not teams know he will be released they think so highly of him that they refuse to give up a pick of any kind to secure his services for 1 year at a very reasonable price, that's Rod Gardner for you. A lot like Brunell, who was going to be released and we swooped in and gave up a fortune for him, now that was a joke!

As for Barrow, he was a good signing, how is the front office to know he would develope tendinitis in his knee? Obviously the coaches believe they have to finally cut ties with the guy, what is wrong with putting a feeler out there to see if we may get some kind of compensation back? Nothing gained, nothing lost.
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:50 PM   #60
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

I will again state that given the cap situation I can see, it would seem that Barrow is wanting to look around, and not the staff wanting him to go.
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