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do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

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Old 07-21-2005, 02:51 PM   #61
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Well guess what jackass, Ive got a reason to! Look at the personell moves these idiots have made, that's why we are in the hole we are in. Thanks to Cerrato and Snyder, the following free agents and drafts have built our team (not)...

Our middle round picks SUCKED for years!!! This is partially the reason we can't build a team. Secondly, lets look at the free agents Danny Boy and Vinny Cerrato have brought in...
It is well documented that Gibbs is the personell guy now so your points about the reign of Cerrato and Synder as the defacto GM are moot(although I'd agree they are well founded points in past seasons)

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Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
I'll bet we are still paying on some of those loser underachievers!
You'd lose that bet since we are not paying any them. Of course they WERE drags for a while but then again I already said I basically agree with your assesment of Snyderatto.

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Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Now, some of you have been saying, well, siging Barrow was a great move at the time because he had no history of injury. To that I say, he was freakin 34 years old, what the hell did you freakin expect? A middle linebacker is 34 years old and we sign him, not to the verteran minimum, but to a 6 year $13 million dollar contract with a 2.5 million dollar signing bonus! Give me a break, its not like he was a kicker, he was a freakin middle linebacker, one of the most physically demanding positions on the field and we signed a 34 year old and gave him a BIG contract for his age. Oh Ive got a reason to bitch and moan, all Redskin fans do.
Well we'll just disagree on this I guess. I personally believe it was reasonable to expect him to remain relatively healthy for 3 years. The contract was not "BIG" for his age as you suggest though. It was a reasonable contract for a multiple time pro bowler with no injury history at all. In fact It was a bargain if he ends up playing near the level he played in his last year with the Giants for the three year life that the contract was meant for.

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Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
"If we make the damn super bowl will all you shut the f$%^ up? Actually if we make the super bowl will you apologize for being idiots? Not saying you are idiots but you could turn out to be totally wrong(making you and idot) or right(making you a genius) but unless you are psychic then stop proclaiming we need to fix a problem we don;t even knwo we if we have."

Nice. You disagree with me so you attack me instead of looking for a counter argument.
The heck??
-First:it wasn't directed solely at you. I thought it was pretty clear that it was a general statement towards those with certain unfounded pessimistic views. Of which you appear to be one in this case.
-Second:it wasn't an attack at all. No where did I call anyone a name. I implied that I thought you all were wrong and that if you were wrong I would feel justified in calling you all idiots but I was careful to state that you indeed could end up being right and therefore geniuses. I actually said 'Not saying you are idiots'.
-Third: I provided multiple arguments but apparently in your haste to reply you seemed to forget that. Funny how you spent most of your post attempting to debunk my arguments but during the typing of that one sentence you conviently ignored what you had been doing this since that wouldn't jive with your premise that I didn't provide 'counter aguments'.

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Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Show me a coach who has won a superbowl with complete say over personnell decisions. It hasn't happened.
Stellar point and one scares me in its truthfulness. Hopefully Gibbs will turn the tide on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Then, when they couldve done the Ports/Bailey deal straight up, they threw in another pick.
Huh? So they actually just GAVE denver another pick for no reason? I bet Denver was pretty happy when the contract showed up and there was a phantom pick included. This has been mentioned in some places but has never been substantiated that Denver would have done the deal without the pick. Pure rumor and is therefore much less relavant.

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Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Then they mishandled the Rod Gardner situation AND the Laverneous Coles situation.
Still not one person has said how these situiations should have been handled differently in this whole thread. I am still waiting for someone to say what should have been done instead.

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Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
So there is evidence that we need a GM.
Not much of that is really evidence since it is hard to argue that any real personell mistakes were made outside of the Brunell decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
This is not a site where we all drink the kool aid and say how great we are, we should be able to disagree without insulting one another.
It's also not a site where unrelenting pessimism goes unnoticed. There are a few of those here. I can't say whether you fall in this category but your post surely lumped in there at least temporarily(for the life of this thread). I personally get angry at those who purport to "keep it real" when all they do is propogate pessimistic views of the team the supposedly love. I wouldn't for a moment include you in this distinguished (and small) group but your views on the FO mirror their's so my frame of mind was probably somehwat skewed. I'll apologize if I said anything that could be construed as an insult. It was not meant in any way to be such. I in fact try incredibly hard NOT to insult people here and I feel like I honored that sentiment in my original post. I simply think you are incredibly wrong in much of your argument.
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:02 PM   #62
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

This makes me think of Philly fans who will find ANY EXCUSE to boo. I remember watching a Eagles game where they were up 3 TDs in the third quarter and the punter shanked one about 25-30 yards. The whole place errupted in boos. Of course our situation isn't analogous, really. But it just makes me think of their tendency to try and find the absolute worst in the situation. I remember when they went down to the bucs in the championship game at home by a few points and the whole place went almost dead silent for the rest of the game. It was like everyone was just thinking, "well here we go again!"
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:12 PM   #63
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by jacobyfan
According to the cap info, it is. 2.157 total hit this year, 2.083 release fee. If that is the case, then this is almost certainly coming from Barrow and not the team. It would indicate that the situation is likely one where he doesn't think he's going to win the starting job and would like one more decent signing bonus (2-3 mil) from someone before he retires. Or he thinks he can still play and thinks he can start somewhere. If he's able to play, the team wouldn't release him if he wanted to be here and play backup. Keeping a vet like that on your team is worth the 70k difference if he can play.
You misunderstanding those numbers. His release fee for this year would have been 2.083 if he had been cut before June 1. Because any cutting would obviously happen after June 1 then his release fee is $416,667 (signingbonus/6). This is not really a release fee rather it is the sb we paid him for this season(in theory). The release goes to next year where the remaining signing bonus is accelrated to that year. His relase for for next year is 1.67. He'd save us 1.7 this year.
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:40 PM   #64
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

Thanks for clearing that up. that's why I asked the question earlier
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:45 PM   #65
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by jacobyfan
According to the cap info, it is. 2.157 total hit this year, 2.083 release fee. If that is the case, then this is almost certainly coming from Barrow and not the team. It would indicate that the situation is likely one where he doesn't think he's going to win the starting job and would like one more decent signing bonus (2-3 mil) from someone before he retires. Or he thinks he can still play and thinks he can start somewhere. If he's able to play, the team wouldn't release him if he wanted to be here and play backup. Keeping a vet like that on your team is worth the 70k difference if he can play.
That info makes this LESS likely, but I woudn't count it out. We know for sure that Gardner is gone and he really almost clears enough room for signing players by himself.
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:50 PM   #66
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

Just curious, where's the proof that we could have traded Bailey for Portis straight up??

I guess the front office was just feeling generous and decided to throw in a 2nd round pick without even being asked??

If a GM would equal instant success, I have a hard time thinking Gibbs wouldn't bring someone in. He's shown that he's willing to try new things, the shotgun, tweaking the running game, etc., so if not having a GM was a real problem why would he not bring one in?

He feels very comfortable with the current front office setup and he seeks a lot of feedback regarding personnel from his coaching staff. Last year was a very good season acquisition-wise and I think some people are quick to point out Brunell like that one mistake should negate the many positive moves.

Sorry I just don't see Barrow as a bad move. He was still playing at a high level before last year and Williams had a history with him. Nobody could foresee that he would be injured, it's not like when we brought in Dave Fiore and rolled the dice with his knee problems, Barrow was a very healthy and productive player prior to last season.

We're headed into year 2 of Gibbs as Coach and Team President, I really think we need to give this thing time to run it's course before we can properly evaluate the job he's doing, both in the front office and on the field.
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Old 07-21-2005, 04:21 PM   #67
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by FRPLG


It's also not a site where unrelenting pessimism goes unnoticed. There are a few of those here. I can't say whether you fall in this category but your post surely lumped in there at least temporarily(for the life of this thread). I personally get angry at those who purport to "keep it real" when all they do is propogate pessimistic views of the team the supposedly love. I wouldn't for a moment include you in this distinguished (and small) group but your views on the FO mirror their's so my frame of mind was probably somehwat skewed. I'll apologize if I said anything that could be construed as an insult. It was not meant in any way to be such. I in fact try incredibly hard NOT to insult people here and I feel like I honored that sentiment in my original post. I simply think you are incredibly wrong in much of your argument.

Self-proclaimed Pessimism Cop FRPLG-
Believe or not, not everybody agrees with all of your opinions, or all of the redskins moves. The great part about the Warpath is people have different opinions and we can all talk about it. We do not have all be company "Yes" men. To disagree with a Redskins player move or any other descion made by the Reedskins is not being a pessimist or a bad Redskins fan. I realize you are a huge Dan Snyder, Cerrato and Gibbs fan, that is great. I am huge Gibbs fan. But don't get mad if somebody disagrees with you. Because it sounds to me that you are questioning peoples (Redskins) patriotism if they do not agree with a Redskins move.
Describing someones post as "bitching and moaning" is going to piss people off. That started the name calling.
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Old 07-21-2005, 04:30 PM   #68
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by Defensewins
Self-proclaimed Pessimism Cop FRPLG-
Believe or not, not everybody agrees with all of your opinions, or all of the redskins moves. The great part about the Warpath is people have different opinions and we can all talk about it. We do not have all be company "Yes" men. To disagree with a Redskins player move or any other descion made by the Reedskins is not being a pessimist or a bad Redskins fan. I realize you are a huge Dan Snyder, Cerrato and Gibbs fan, that is great. I am huge Gibbsl. But don't get mad if somebody disagrees with you. Because it sounds to me that you are questioning peoples (Redskins) patriotism if they do not agree with a Redskins move.
In FRPLG's defense, I think there are a lot of people who jump the gun and assume the worst right away before anything happens. We lost Smoot and Pierc? Well our defense will suck now. Barrow got injured? Well why didn't we see that coming? We didn't draft Roscoe Crosby? Well, he's going to be an All-Pro somewhere else...it just goes on and on.

I know we haven't been very good the past several years. But that doesn't mean we haven't made some good individual personnel decisions over the years. I imagine what gets FRPLG upset is the failure some people have to wait for things to play out before they form an opinion on it
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Old 07-21-2005, 04:36 PM   #69
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by TAFKAS
In FRPLG's defense, I think there are a lot of people who jump the gun and assume the worst right away before anything happens. We lost Smoot and Pierc? Well our defense will suck now. Barrow got injured? Well why didn't we see that coming? We didn't draft Roscoe Crosby? Well, he's going to be an All-Pro somewhere else...it just goes on and on.

I know we haven't been very good the past several years. But that doesn't mean we haven't made some good individual personnel decisions over the years. I imagine what gets FRPLG upset is the failure some people have to wait for things to play out before they form an opinion on it
I agree with you and with what FRPLG said.

He's not saying we shouldn't disagree, he just has a problem with the people who always seem to think the sky is falling, and I can definitely relate.
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Old 07-21-2005, 04:41 PM   #70
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by Defensewins
Self-proclaimed Pessimism Cop FRPLG-
Believe or not, not everybody agrees with all of your opinions, or all of the redskins moves. The great part about the Warpath is people have different opinions and we can all talk about it. We do not have all be company "Yes" men. To disagree with a Redskins player move or any other descion made by the Reedskins is not being a pessimist or a bad Redskins fan. I realize you are a huge Dan Snyder, Cerrato and Gibbs fan, that is great. I am huge Gibbs fan. But don't get mad if somebody disagrees with you. Because it sounds to me that you are questioning peoples (Redskins) patriotism if they do not agree with a Redskins move.
Describing someones post as "bitching and moaning" is going to piss people off. That started the name calling.
This is my point too. I am not "the sky is falling" type of fan, but I just disagree with the leadership in the front office that's all, I think they make poor draft and free agent decisions.
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Old 07-21-2005, 04:56 PM   #71
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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I agree with you and with what FRPLG said.

He's not saying we shouldn't disagree, he just has a problem with the people who always seem to think the sky is falling, and I can definitely relate.
I think I am having a problem communicating my beliefs here but Matty has it right. I just don't like the "glass is always and forever totally empty" type people. There are only a select few here but they get to me.
And I think it a very good that we have differing opinions because it allows us to hash through skewed media coverage and get down to brass tax on most issues. I just would like those who have any opinion, especially those that are contrary, to support them with some facts and to offer alternatives when necessary. This leads to a quality discussion where everyone can digest an opinion and understand the base of it and decide whther they agree or not. When a statement is made like "they handled [this] situation poorly so they all need to be fired!" or "we need a GM because Gibbs isn't any good at personel management" but there is no support for the statement it doesn't contribuite much to the discussion.
This might come as a surprise but I tend to agree that we would probably be better off if we had a true GM with gibbs only having major personel decision contributions but not final say and Snyder simply handling contracts. Cerrato can go work for ESPN for all I care. My support for this would be that
A) as paul noted there is not a long line of headcoach/GM types winning superbowls
B)Gibbs has never been the go to guy on personel issues so there isn't any history to grant him unconditional trust in such areas
C)Snyder is so beholden to Gibbs that a GM as an unbiased middleman might add a layer of reason and quality

But I also consider Gibbs to be one the top football minds in NFL history. He has proven that he can coach a team and design a scheme to win games. Given that history and the documented analysis of his qualities as a talent manager and honetsy I am willing to give him some leeway when it comes to personel management. I am in no way convinced he can do it but I think giving him a shot is only fair. He really has done nothing that any of can point to that shows for a fact he isn't any good at it. Yet.
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Old 07-21-2005, 05:04 PM   #72
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Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

I see what you're trying to say on most of that, my only question is: What has Gibbs done to show he CAN'T be a good GM/Coach?

As Schneed pointed out earlier, most of the offseason acquisitions he made were right-on. I know a lot of us are perplexed by the Campbell pick, but would you really want A) A (more than likely) has-been like Brunell or a B) Never-was, never-will-be like Hasselbeck being a backup in the case that Ramsey gets hurt or plays poorly? It's hard to digest, and even though it might not look this way now, they possibly got a bargain on Campbell. They paid a "bit" too much, but imagine if Ramsey was TERRIBLE and they had to draft a QB next year. They would have to wait until the second round to "maybe" find a diamond-in-the-rough as a QB. Being the crap-shoot that it is, I think the Campbell pick might shock a lot of us if Ramsey falters.

I don't expect him to, but I believe that if he does or gets hurt, the fan base would rather give a young person to chance to be the leader, not someone who is close to retirement or is just not that good.
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Old 07-21-2005, 05:58 PM   #73
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
This is my point too. I am not "the sky is falling" type of fan, but I just disagree with the leadership in the front office that's all, I think they make poor draft and free agent decisions.
Dude, there is one HUGE inherent flaw in your reasoning. All of your posts today have directed criticism towards Snyder and Cerrato, and the moves they have made in the past.

IT'S IRRELEVANT. Gibbs calls the shots now. Snyder heads up negotiations and salary cap management, and Cerrato heads up scouting. But in the end, players are Gibbs' call (with lots of help from Gregg Williams on D guys).

Criticizing the current front office for decisions made before Gibbs arrived is just plain asinine. It makes no sense. Your problem is you're looking back too much. I don't know why you would want to look back at the dark ages so much, when the presence of Joe Gibbs, Joe Bugel, Gregg Williams, and Greg Blache gives us so much to look forward to in the future.

Have hope. Last year's free agency and draft success should give you reason to feel optimistic. The change you want ALREADY HAPPENED. Snyder and Cerrato don't call the shots anymore, Joe Gibbs does.
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Old 07-21-2005, 06:14 PM   #74
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Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

Just to piggy-back off of Malcolm and FRPLG's posts, I think Gibbs can make a fine GM, but he needs lots of input to do it.

If we take a look at the players who Gibbs acquired last year, almost all of the successful ones were the defensive guys. Griffin, Washington, Springs, Salavea'a, Walt Harris, and Sean Taylor. All were excellent. But guess who gave Gibbs the input on those guys? Gregg Williams. And Williams knew Barrow would also be a good fit since Barrow was under Williams with the Titans; it's just that there's no way Williams could have known Barrow would get so dinged up. Blache gave his endorsement of Phillip Daniels last year. When he was on the field he proved to play rather well for the money; though he needs to stay healthy to be considered a successful acquisition. Gibbs looks like a pretty successful GM on the defensive side of the ball because he had tremendous input from his defensive staff.

Now is that to say Gregg Williams deserves credit? Yes, he knows exactly what he wants. But is that also to say that Joe Gibbs doesn't deserve any credit for those defensive acquisitions? Hell no. Gibbs was smart enough to take input from guys around him, and it worked.

Gibbs goofed on Brunell big-time. I guess we'll see if he goofs on Campbell, Rabach, Patten, and Santana Moss in due time. But I do know that he is staying open and taking input from everyone. From Bill Musgrave, from Joe Bugel, from Steve Jackson, from Don Breaux, from everybody. That's why he'll be a successful GM. He may not have the eye for talent that Bobby Beathard did, but I think he has supporting staff who knows how to pick the players this time around.

The unsuccessful GM/Coach guys run into trouble because of their egos, in my opinion. They think they know everything and don't need input from others. Joe Gibbs is not like that; he delegates responsibilities, he defers to his assistants, and he trusts the judgment of those around him.
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Old 07-21-2005, 06:28 PM   #75
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Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

Right. Joe Gibbs takes to heart anything said from EVERYONE around him, even the fans.
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