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do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

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Old 07-21-2005, 02:45 PM   #61
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by jacobyfan
According to the cap info, it is. 2.157 total hit this year, 2.083 release fee. If that is the case, then this is almost certainly coming from Barrow and not the team. It would indicate that the situation is likely one where he doesn't think he's going to win the starting job and would like one more decent signing bonus (2-3 mil) from someone before he retires. Or he thinks he can still play and thinks he can start somewhere. If he's able to play, the team wouldn't release him if he wanted to be here and play backup. Keeping a vet like that on your team is worth the 70k difference if he can play.
That info makes this LESS likely, but I woudn't count it out. We know for sure that Gardner is gone and he really almost clears enough room for signing players by himself.
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:50 PM   #62
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

Just curious, where's the proof that we could have traded Bailey for Portis straight up??

I guess the front office was just feeling generous and decided to throw in a 2nd round pick without even being asked??

If a GM would equal instant success, I have a hard time thinking Gibbs wouldn't bring someone in. He's shown that he's willing to try new things, the shotgun, tweaking the running game, etc., so if not having a GM was a real problem why would he not bring one in?

He feels very comfortable with the current front office setup and he seeks a lot of feedback regarding personnel from his coaching staff. Last year was a very good season acquisition-wise and I think some people are quick to point out Brunell like that one mistake should negate the many positive moves.

Sorry I just don't see Barrow as a bad move. He was still playing at a high level before last year and Williams had a history with him. Nobody could foresee that he would be injured, it's not like when we brought in Dave Fiore and rolled the dice with his knee problems, Barrow was a very healthy and productive player prior to last season.

We're headed into year 2 of Gibbs as Coach and Team President, I really think we need to give this thing time to run it's course before we can properly evaluate the job he's doing, both in the front office and on the field.
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:21 PM   #63
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by FRPLG


It's also not a site where unrelenting pessimism goes unnoticed. There are a few of those here. I can't say whether you fall in this category but your post surely lumped in there at least temporarily(for the life of this thread). I personally get angry at those who purport to "keep it real" when all they do is propogate pessimistic views of the team the supposedly love. I wouldn't for a moment include you in this distinguished (and small) group but your views on the FO mirror their's so my frame of mind was probably somehwat skewed. I'll apologize if I said anything that could be construed as an insult. It was not meant in any way to be such. I in fact try incredibly hard NOT to insult people here and I feel like I honored that sentiment in my original post. I simply think you are incredibly wrong in much of your argument.

Self-proclaimed Pessimism Cop FRPLG-
Believe or not, not everybody agrees with all of your opinions, or all of the redskins moves. The great part about the Warpath is people have different opinions and we can all talk about it. We do not have all be company "Yes" men. To disagree with a Redskins player move or any other descion made by the Reedskins is not being a pessimist or a bad Redskins fan. I realize you are a huge Dan Snyder, Cerrato and Gibbs fan, that is great. I am huge Gibbs fan. But don't get mad if somebody disagrees with you. Because it sounds to me that you are questioning peoples (Redskins) patriotism if they do not agree with a Redskins move.
Describing someones post as "bitching and moaning" is going to piss people off. That started the name calling.
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:30 PM   #64
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by Defensewins
Self-proclaimed Pessimism Cop FRPLG-
Believe or not, not everybody agrees with all of your opinions, or all of the redskins moves. The great part about the Warpath is people have different opinions and we can all talk about it. We do not have all be company "Yes" men. To disagree with a Redskins player move or any other descion made by the Reedskins is not being a pessimist or a bad Redskins fan. I realize you are a huge Dan Snyder, Cerrato and Gibbs fan, that is great. I am huge Gibbsl. But don't get mad if somebody disagrees with you. Because it sounds to me that you are questioning peoples (Redskins) patriotism if they do not agree with a Redskins move.
In FRPLG's defense, I think there are a lot of people who jump the gun and assume the worst right away before anything happens. We lost Smoot and Pierc? Well our defense will suck now. Barrow got injured? Well why didn't we see that coming? We didn't draft Roscoe Crosby? Well, he's going to be an All-Pro somewhere else...it just goes on and on.

I know we haven't been very good the past several years. But that doesn't mean we haven't made some good individual personnel decisions over the years. I imagine what gets FRPLG upset is the failure some people have to wait for things to play out before they form an opinion on it
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:36 PM   #65
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by TAFKAS
In FRPLG's defense, I think there are a lot of people who jump the gun and assume the worst right away before anything happens. We lost Smoot and Pierc? Well our defense will suck now. Barrow got injured? Well why didn't we see that coming? We didn't draft Roscoe Crosby? Well, he's going to be an All-Pro somewhere else...it just goes on and on.

I know we haven't been very good the past several years. But that doesn't mean we haven't made some good individual personnel decisions over the years. I imagine what gets FRPLG upset is the failure some people have to wait for things to play out before they form an opinion on it
I agree with you and with what FRPLG said.

He's not saying we shouldn't disagree, he just has a problem with the people who always seem to think the sky is falling, and I can definitely relate.
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:56 PM   #66
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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I agree with you and with what FRPLG said.

He's not saying we shouldn't disagree, he just has a problem with the people who always seem to think the sky is falling, and I can definitely relate.
I think I am having a problem communicating my beliefs here but Matty has it right. I just don't like the "glass is always and forever totally empty" type people. There are only a select few here but they get to me.
And I think it a very good that we have differing opinions because it allows us to hash through skewed media coverage and get down to brass tax on most issues. I just would like those who have any opinion, especially those that are contrary, to support them with some facts and to offer alternatives when necessary. This leads to a quality discussion where everyone can digest an opinion and understand the base of it and decide whther they agree or not. When a statement is made like "they handled [this] situation poorly so they all need to be fired!" or "we need a GM because Gibbs isn't any good at personel management" but there is no support for the statement it doesn't contribuite much to the discussion.
This might come as a surprise but I tend to agree that we would probably be better off if we had a true GM with gibbs only having major personel decision contributions but not final say and Snyder simply handling contracts. Cerrato can go work for ESPN for all I care. My support for this would be that
A) as paul noted there is not a long line of headcoach/GM types winning superbowls
B)Gibbs has never been the go to guy on personel issues so there isn't any history to grant him unconditional trust in such areas
C)Snyder is so beholden to Gibbs that a GM as an unbiased middleman might add a layer of reason and quality

But I also consider Gibbs to be one the top football minds in NFL history. He has proven that he can coach a team and design a scheme to win games. Given that history and the documented analysis of his qualities as a talent manager and honetsy I am willing to give him some leeway when it comes to personel management. I am in no way convinced he can do it but I think giving him a shot is only fair. He really has done nothing that any of can point to that shows for a fact he isn't any good at it. Yet.
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Old 07-21-2005, 04:04 PM   #67
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Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

I see what you're trying to say on most of that, my only question is: What has Gibbs done to show he CAN'T be a good GM/Coach?

As Schneed pointed out earlier, most of the offseason acquisitions he made were right-on. I know a lot of us are perplexed by the Campbell pick, but would you really want A) A (more than likely) has-been like Brunell or a B) Never-was, never-will-be like Hasselbeck being a backup in the case that Ramsey gets hurt or plays poorly? It's hard to digest, and even though it might not look this way now, they possibly got a bargain on Campbell. They paid a "bit" too much, but imagine if Ramsey was TERRIBLE and they had to draft a QB next year. They would have to wait until the second round to "maybe" find a diamond-in-the-rough as a QB. Being the crap-shoot that it is, I think the Campbell pick might shock a lot of us if Ramsey falters.

I don't expect him to, but I believe that if he does or gets hurt, the fan base would rather give a young person to chance to be the leader, not someone who is close to retirement or is just not that good.
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Old 07-21-2005, 04:58 PM   #68
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
This is my point too. I am not "the sky is falling" type of fan, but I just disagree with the leadership in the front office that's all, I think they make poor draft and free agent decisions.
Dude, there is one HUGE inherent flaw in your reasoning. All of your posts today have directed criticism towards Snyder and Cerrato, and the moves they have made in the past.

IT'S IRRELEVANT. Gibbs calls the shots now. Snyder heads up negotiations and salary cap management, and Cerrato heads up scouting. But in the end, players are Gibbs' call (with lots of help from Gregg Williams on D guys).

Criticizing the current front office for decisions made before Gibbs arrived is just plain asinine. It makes no sense. Your problem is you're looking back too much. I don't know why you would want to look back at the dark ages so much, when the presence of Joe Gibbs, Joe Bugel, Gregg Williams, and Greg Blache gives us so much to look forward to in the future.

Have hope. Last year's free agency and draft success should give you reason to feel optimistic. The change you want ALREADY HAPPENED. Snyder and Cerrato don't call the shots anymore, Joe Gibbs does.
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Old 07-21-2005, 05:14 PM   #69
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Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

Just to piggy-back off of Malcolm and FRPLG's posts, I think Gibbs can make a fine GM, but he needs lots of input to do it.

If we take a look at the players who Gibbs acquired last year, almost all of the successful ones were the defensive guys. Griffin, Washington, Springs, Salavea'a, Walt Harris, and Sean Taylor. All were excellent. But guess who gave Gibbs the input on those guys? Gregg Williams. And Williams knew Barrow would also be a good fit since Barrow was under Williams with the Titans; it's just that there's no way Williams could have known Barrow would get so dinged up. Blache gave his endorsement of Phillip Daniels last year. When he was on the field he proved to play rather well for the money; though he needs to stay healthy to be considered a successful acquisition. Gibbs looks like a pretty successful GM on the defensive side of the ball because he had tremendous input from his defensive staff.

Now is that to say Gregg Williams deserves credit? Yes, he knows exactly what he wants. But is that also to say that Joe Gibbs doesn't deserve any credit for those defensive acquisitions? Hell no. Gibbs was smart enough to take input from guys around him, and it worked.

Gibbs goofed on Brunell big-time. I guess we'll see if he goofs on Campbell, Rabach, Patten, and Santana Moss in due time. But I do know that he is staying open and taking input from everyone. From Bill Musgrave, from Joe Bugel, from Steve Jackson, from Don Breaux, from everybody. That's why he'll be a successful GM. He may not have the eye for talent that Bobby Beathard did, but I think he has supporting staff who knows how to pick the players this time around.

The unsuccessful GM/Coach guys run into trouble because of their egos, in my opinion. They think they know everything and don't need input from others. Joe Gibbs is not like that; he delegates responsibilities, he defers to his assistants, and he trusts the judgment of those around him.
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Old 07-21-2005, 05:28 PM   #70
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Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

Right. Joe Gibbs takes to heart anything said from EVERYONE around him, even the fans.
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Old 07-21-2005, 08:12 PM   #71
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Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

The way the Redskins were talking Barrow up in mini-camp, and rehab programs, I thought he was FINALLY healthy and they would use him in the line-up, guess it was all just PRE-TRADE HYPE to get some team interested!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-21-2005, 09:59 PM   #72
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Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

schneed10 I partially agree with you. I think this position of president that Gibbs has now is overwhelming for him. He is the Face of the skins. He has responsibility for everything, and has to watch over everything. He has never done this before, and I think this effected his offensive playcalling to some effect. Everyone knows Gibbs is a offensive genius but last year something was lacking... Maybe this role effected that.

With Barrow I think we should let him make the decision to stay on the team by demanding he take a major pay cut if he wants to stay otherwise let him go. I just hate to see him go somewhere else and shine, after we payed for him to get better like trotter
The Rod Gardner situation is part his fault/ part the teams fault if he doesn't want to do what he can to get on another team than he needs to get his ass to camp so that he can do what he can to play here. The team on the other hand has money invested in this player and need atleast keep the door open for a resolution
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Old 07-22-2005, 08:49 AM   #73
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Re: do we show our hand to soon

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Originally Posted by paulskinsfan
Can someone clear this up for me, because I thought that all draft decisions were the result of a "team" effort between Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder. Don't they compile notebooks on all draft prospects and make the decisions together? Of course Danny Boy will side with Gibbs on all matters, but if memory serves me, I believe the threesome is still calling the personnell shots. I really don't see Phillip Daniels as anything but a bust SO FAR. To say he played well for the money doesn't make sense to me because he only played in 4 games, and his history is an injury plagued one.
Yeah it is the result of a team effort. The offseason process works like this:

1) Gibbs and the coaches review the roster and identify needs. They review the roster for certain positions that need strengthening, and they decide what types of skills and traits they want to fill that position with. For example, this past offseason they decided they needed an upgrade at center. They specifically targeted athletic centers who could get out to make blocks on the stretch plays they want to run with Portis this year.

2) Cerrato and the scouting staff compile information, scouting reports, and video of available players at those positions.

3) Gibbs and his coaching staff review the information and watch the videos. They look for the types of techniques and skill sets that they feel is important for the position. They rank the available players at each position.

4) Dan Snyder gets the player rankings (you could call it a "wish list"), and starts the negotiation process. He looks at the salary cap situation with Schaffer and gets a feel for how he needs to fit things into the cap. They then begin to recruit and sell the top player on Gibbs' wish list at each position. Gibbs and Snyder go out to dinner with the player and his agent, crap like that. They feel them out for contract demands, and they decide if they can fit under the Skins' cap. If they think it's doable, Snyder starts negotiating.

So yes, it's a group decision, because Cerrato is the scouting monkey who provides information, so technically he has a role. Snyder does the negotiating and cap management with support from Schaffer, so technically they have a role. But Gibbs picks out the players he wants, with lots of help and evaluation from his assistants. That's what they mean when they say that Gibbs has "final say on personnel."

So yeah, technically it's a group effort. But Gibbs is really the one in charge, and calls the shots on which players to get.
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Old 07-22-2005, 09:40 AM   #74
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Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

Why don't we find out the answer to our decision-making questions straight from the horse's mouth
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Old 07-22-2005, 12:39 PM   #75
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Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

WoW! Now I remember why I don't frequent Extremeskins! My eyes like more light. Extremeskins is so dark! I had almost forgotten that Awesome read on cousinvinnie.
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