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Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

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Old 11-30-2005, 05:57 PM   #1
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Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

I posted the following response in the thread about what personnel we would need next year...but on second thought i guess it doesnt really belong there...so i am creating a separate thread...

Let me know what you guys think:

You know, i figure ill prolly get some reactionary comments for this...but here goes...

I have seen a number of people suggest that we ought to get rid of Ramsey at the end of the season and get whatever we can for him...whether that be a 2nd (unlikely), a 3rd, or a 4th.

Now i just dont agree. I mean if nothing else having a quality back-up is something on which you simply cannot place enough emphasis.

Look at what happend to the Jets this year. They were a playoff team last year...and they didnt really lose too many guys, and even picked up Ty Law. But their QB goes down and look at them now...they may be one of the top candidates to win the Reggie Bush sweepstakes.

Now whether you liked the pick or not...i suppose it is true that we drafted Jason Cambell as our QB of the future. However, none of us know how far along he is in his development. In fact many analysts on draft day...and many guys on this board were saying that he was a project...that he was brought in here to ride the pine and learn for 2 years...and then take over eventually.

So i mean considering we are looking to make a serious run at the playoffs and possibly looking to become a contender next year...I think it would be silly to stake the entire season on Mark Brunells shoulders. Mark Brunell will be 36 and if Cambell is not ready, then the skins really ought to think long and hard before giving up a damn good back-up QB in Ramsey (in my humble opinion starting material) for a measly 4th rounder. They need to at least make sure they get something worthwhile for him...or shouldn't trade him.

Now here is the part i know ill get shit for...

It is my opinion that despite the fact that he has proven to be a good leader and an admirable competitor...and a seemingly good guy...that the Mark Brunell signing has not been a good thing for the redskins. Here is why i think that...

One should not only consider a players performance in deciding whether or not he was a good signing. You also have to consider the cost to benefit ratio. The first example that comes to mind is that of Randy Moss and the Oakland Raiders...

I read an article recently that questionned whether or not Moss was actually helping the raiders or not. The guy is putting up good numbers...but look at his paycheck. While he was out injured...the raiders focused more on their running attack and actually played good winning football while moss was out or not playing a large role in the offense. When he is in the game...his contract necessitates that a certain amount of the offensive plays are based on him...and thus the raiders run less. So while just looking at the guys stats you might say he was a great signing...just consider the huge commitment the raiders have made in taking on his 75 million contract...and the fact that they are still only 4-7. If they hadnt signed him...they could still have a good offense...and could have invested the money his contract eats up...elsewhere.

Now how is this related to Brunell? Well while it seems unfair to criticize Gibbs an Co. for the initial signing now...since hindsight is always 20/20 and they didnt have the luxury of knowing how things would turn out when they signed Brunell. I do believe that it is legitimate to judge a signing based on the results you get vs what you gave up to get those results.

Brunell is getting paid alot. (more than our other 2 QB's i believe). His first season here was a disaster, and now despite vastly improved play on his part...the team still may not make the playoffs.

In addition to the dollar cost of his contract, his signing also led us to waste any viable cotribution that Ramsey MIGHT have been able to make to this team.

Of course no one can tell what would have been if it had been ramsey starting in place of Brunell. However, Ramsey was a first rounder, a big investment for this franchise, and considering that he never was given an opportunity comparable to the oppurtunities that other first rounders normally get...we may never find out whether Ramsey would have turned out to be another Drew Brees...or another bum.

He might have been great. He might have been terrible. Or he might have been mediocre.

But it is the not knowing that constitues a wasted investment...and should in my mind be considered as part of the cost we undertook in signing Brunell.

You can take it even further and suggest that the cost of Brunells contract could have been even more than just 1 wasted first rounder. For IF...and i do say IF Ramsey did prove to be a Viable starter...then we would of course never have drafted Jason Cambell. And so it could even be possible...though noone will ever know...that in addition to the actual dollar investement...Brunell's signing also cost us 2 first rounders (QB investments - Ramsey drafted before his arrival...who we wont know about. Campbell drafted after his first season...precisely because we didnt know about Ramsey, or Brunell- both of whom only played a portion of the season and neither played exceptionally well.)

So in conclusion i would just like to state...that in my opinion the cost to benefit ratio of signing Brunell has not even come close to panning out. You know i mean maybe im wrong...and he will come back and lead us to the playoffs or a superbowl and that would be great. But frankly...at this point...i would really have rathered seen what we had in Ramsey...before going out and getting a guy who when it is all said and done...may have only led us to 2 mediocre seasons...but cost us so very very much.

Sorry about the length...i just got kinda carried away...
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Old 11-30-2005, 06:06 PM   #2
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

Didn't they restructure Brunell's salary? I know it was restructured to fit the cap but if they did restructure it, didn't they reduce it greatly?
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Old 11-30-2005, 07:37 PM   #3
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

Although I can't stand the guy, Jimmy Johnson summed up Ramsey perfectly in just three words..."He can't play".

We needed Brunell.
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Old 11-30-2005, 07:56 PM   #4
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

trade ramsey, as his contract runs out after next year i think, so cut our losses

keep brunell, campbell either starts or brunell backs him up

get a veteran 3rd string QB, one in the mold of a tim hasselbeck, or joey harrington, assuming he gets cut, he would come cheap since he is a failure, even if he does suck ass
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Old 11-30-2005, 08:04 PM   #5
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

Much of this depends on next 5 outings........Premature ejac.......But Ramsey must go!!!! dont let the heart grow founder in his abscence right now....He is a broken QB!!! Thanx Spurrier :frusty:
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Old 11-30-2005, 09:23 PM   #6
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

My sentiments about Patrick Ramsey have been the same since he began his first year as the starting QB. I like the rest of you thought Ramsey was the one we've been waiting for as a young big game playmaker. What he showed against the New York Jets was impressive. But Ramsey was exposed by our NFC East rival teams that sent a variety of blitzes and deceptive coverages in the secondary. Ramsey was inconsistent in most of those games and I'm not inclined to believe that it was all of Spurrier's fault for all of the sacks he sustained. Even with max protection Ramsey could not understand the idea of throwing the ball away when there were no open receivers.

I think Ramsey,Joey Harrington, and David Carr all have not met the expectations that there teams would have desired and for that reason all three teams have not had successful records. It all balls down to whether or not Ramsey could be a leader and an efficient QB for the Redskins. He showed he couldn't. It was his job for the taking after a decent showing at the end of last season. But in preseason and the first game of the season he continued the struggle with INT's and sacks.

Mark Brunell has had his best season statistically since leaving the Jaguars with 15 TD's and just 5 INTs. This is the difference between a good and subpar QB. Ramsey will be a great fit for the Jets who desperately need a player with arm who can stretch the field. Let's see if the Jets and Redskins continue their business relationship in the off season.
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Old 11-30-2005, 09:54 PM   #7
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNRA
Mark Brunell has had his best season statistically since leaving the Jaguars with 15 TD's and just 5 INTs.
dont forget about leading the NFL in fumbles lost and winning 2 out of his last 8..thats a stat too
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Old 11-30-2005, 09:55 PM   #8
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

At this point now, Jason Campbell is our future. I believe Jason will have a better chance at being a success in the NFL because he has some top notch coaches who will work with him on his development. I still believe this is the best system for a quarterback to "grow up" in. If it were not true, then we wouldn't have had a different quarterback winning Super Bowls for us in Gibbs 1.0.

I think Ramsey has a chance to prove himself down the line. I think Ramsey lacks alot as a leader, but I don't believe he is a broken QB. I still believe he could be successful here in Washington, but I believe he's just going to be a late bloomer like Doug Williams.
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Old 11-30-2005, 09:57 PM   #9
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNRA
Mark Brunell has had his best season statistically since leaving the Jaguars with 15 TD's and just 5 INTs. QUOTE]
dont forget about leading the NFL in fumbles lost and winning 2 out of his last 8..thats a stat too

Railcon, do you ever have anything positive to say about this team at all? I can understand being frustrated with having high expectations for this year and going through a three game slump, but come on man - I just don't understand this gloom and doom.
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Old 11-30-2005, 09:57 PM   #10
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

Quote:
Originally Posted by skinsguy
At this point now, Jason Campbell is our future. I believe Jason will have a better chance at being a success in the NFL because he has some top notch coaches who will work with him on his development. I still believe this is the best system for a quarterback to "grow up" in. If it were not true, then we wouldn't have had a different quarterback winning Super Bowls for us in Gibbs 1.0.

I think Ramsey has a chance to prove himself down the line. I think Ramsey lacks alot as a leader, but I don't believe he is a broken QB. I still believe he could be successful here in Washington, but I believe he's just going to be a late bloomer like Doug Williams.
He has all the tools is a great guy a big arm and is tough ass nails
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Old 11-30-2005, 09:59 PM   #11
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

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Originally Posted by railcon56@comcast.net
He has all the tools is a great guy a big arm and is tough ass nails

I agree, but he doesn't have all the tools. A great quarterback is also a great leader, and I haven't seen that in Patrick Ramsey yet. Not saying it won't happen, but it's not happening right now. Just the look on his face when he was out there playing...he looked scared to me. But, I think he's a heck of a guy!
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Old 11-30-2005, 10:01 PM   #12
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

[QUOTE=skinsguy]
Quote:
Originally Posted by railcon56@comcast.net


Railcon, do you ever have anything positive to say about this team at all? I can understand being frustrated with having high expectations for this year and going through a three game slump, but come on man - I just don't understand this gloom and doom.
well yes i said i liked several players
if u were reading me plus i have bought tickets to 3 games off the internet... and they were 50 yard line seats so they weren't cheap i am just tired of the damn excuses blame snyder and ramsey and everyone else except gibbs and brunell ..i was never on his bandwagon..try doing a search on my posts and u will see plenty of positives..but no excuses i am not gonna be like a cleveland fan..used of losing and being satisfied we havent won in years and there is no excuse if u dont have a winning season ur a loser..period
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Old 11-30-2005, 10:05 PM   #13
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

[QUOTE=skinsguy]
Quote:
Originally Posted by railcon56@comcast.net


Railcon, do you ever have anything positive to say about this team at all? I can understand being frustrated with having high expectations for this year and going through a three game slump, but come on man - I just don't understand this gloom and doom.
i think the defense played good enough to win last week i think carlos and a few others played well but positive ..hey last time i looked we have lost 3 in a row and are in danger of missing the playoffs once again thats not positive,,,poeple get used to losing not me no excuses if they want the players mr snyder will get them so it's all on them ..the coaches
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Old 11-30-2005, 10:10 PM   #14
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinsguy
well yes i said i liked several players
if u were reading me plus i have bought tickets to 3 games off the internet... and they were 50 yard line seats so they weren't cheap i am just tired of the damn excuses blame snyder and ramsey and everyone else except gibbs and brunell ..i was never on his bandwagon..try doing a search on my posts and u will see plenty of positives..but no excuses i am not gonna be like a cleveland fan..used of losing and being satisfied we havent won in years and there is no excuse if u dont have a winning season ur a loser..period
Right.....I always say show me a good loser...I'll show you a loser! But come on now....2nd year for GIBBS.....Give me a break...We have improved. NUFF SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!
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Old 11-30-2005, 10:12 PM   #15
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Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

[QUOTE=44deisel44]
Quote:
Originally Posted by railcon56@comcast.net
Right.....I always say show me a good loser...I'll show you a loser! But come on now....2nd year for GIBBS.....Give me a break...We have improved. NUFF SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!
true but why does parcells win in his 1st or second year?????????
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