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We must draft better...

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Old 12-13-2005, 05:09 PM   #46
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Re: We must draft better...

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72
Nobody is saying the Skins operate the cap to perfection. Of course they will face some difficult decisions along the way just like they did last year with Pierce and Smoot.

But what we are saying is the Redskins have a plan in place, and they closely monitor how signing player X today is going to effect the cap down the road and how that will effect their ability to sign player Y.

You're acting like all contracts suddenly come due all at once. The Skins have the contracts spread out and structured so in any given year they know what is going to come due and they plan accordingly.

The cap articles you referenced are true, but as someone said they are basically capology 101.

Answer me this one simple thing, back in '00 the Skins spent like crazy, so why did they not fall into cap hell from that record breaking spending spree like the media said they would??
Apparently when Marty took over, he rectified that by sending Dieon into retirement, Carrier gone, George gone. Marty cleaned house basically. those contracts never had a chance to make it to the large numbers.
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Old 12-13-2005, 05:11 PM   #47
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Re: We must draft better...

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Originally Posted by Schneed10
56fanatic, since you have such a profound understanding of the salary cap, please go to the Cap Info section of the Warpath and tell me where you think the Skins are in danger. I want you to point out specific players in specific years and explain what they will do to our cap, and how it will hurt us so badly.

If you can't do that, you don't understand finance and you don't understand the salary cap. All the reading you do of "capologist" articles are great for building a general understanding of caponomics, but you have to be able to apply it to the Redskins' situation. That's your homework. No more talking in generalities. I want to discuss specifics, which contracts specifically are going to cause the Redskins to enter cap hell?
I will go through them in a second, but the cap is a NFL wide thing. the Redskins dont have a different cap. the articles I posted are regarding the NFL cap. just like rules, the NFL, NBA, MLB all have rules. Certain teams dont have there own rules to operate, they operate under the same umbrella.
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Old 12-13-2005, 05:14 PM   #48
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Re: We must draft better...

Schneed10, where am I to go and get the info on the players contracts and yearly impact throughout the contract? The cap info is basic cap info, not any specifics.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:26 PM   #49
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Re: We must draft better...

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Originally Posted by #56fanatic
Apparently when Marty took over, he rectified that by sending Dieon into retirement, Carrier gone, George gone. Marty cleaned house basically. those contracts never had a chance to make it to the large numbers.
ARRRGGHHHH. Don't you see? It was the housecleaning that was supposed to send us into cap hell. AND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. Supposedly, when we cut Carrier, Deion, Bruce Smith and George it was going to cause such a large cap hit because their prorated bonuses would be accelerated. In turn, the accelerated bonuses would cause such a big cap hit that we would be forced to make wholesale cuts to get under the cap. HOW MANY PLAYERS WERE CUT B/C OF THE "CAP HELL" CAUSED BY DEION, CARRIER AND SMITH???

Do you even understand the articles you posted??? Could you at least try for some consistency in your arguments? I know that seems to be asking for a lot, but others in this thread seem to manage it.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:52 PM   #50
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Re: We must draft better...

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Originally Posted by offiss
In all due respect Marty deserves a big thank you for basically taking care of that situation, he took the hit and stabilized our roster fiscally in 1 year.
I agree. He took a hit and, as Matty pointed out, we weren't particularly active that year. BUT we weren't forced to basically destroy our roster as the Ravens were two years after their SB. As Schneed pointed out, we took the hit BUT we then managed it w/out total roster destruction.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:00 PM   #51
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Re: We must draft better...

I agree. Marty did nothing but help the REDSKINS! If we had kept him around we would have been to the playoffs by now.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:34 PM   #52
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Re: We must draft better...

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Originally Posted by Mattyk72
Still waiting for that cap hell...

"Cap Hell" may not be what everybody perceives it to be -- everyone uses San Fransisco as the ultimate example. They had to purge their roster, now look at them.

While the Skins haven't fallen to that point, our version of Cap Hell might be less debilitating, but still negates our ability to keep the players once they become free agents -- Smoot and Pierce are the most recent examples. Can you imagine how retaining those players could have helped us out now?
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:48 PM   #53
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Re: We must draft better...

Cap hell is not being limited to making tough choices like the Skins did with Smoot and Pierce. Every team is faced with decisions like that, you can't just sign everyone.

When the media talks of the Skins headed towards cap hell each offseason, they're referring to what teams like the Titans went through last year, where they have to sell off players just to be able to field a full roster and they are severely limited in what they can do personnel wise.

C'mon Beems, are you telling me the Skins are in cap hell right now?
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:15 PM   #54
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Re: We must draft better...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattyk72
Cap hell is not being limited to making tough choices like the Skins did with Smoot and Pierce. Every team is faced with decisions like that, you can't just sign everyone.

When the media talks of the Skins headed towards cap hell each offseason, they're referring to what teams like the Titans went through last year, where they have to sell off players just to be able to field a full roster and they are severely limited in what they can do personnel wise.

C'mon Beems, are you telling me the Skins are in cap hell right now?
I think we can safely say that cap constraints were a factor in our inability to retain Fred Smoot and Antonio Pierce.

Look, if this everything's coming up roses with regard to personnel decision-making and cap management as some here seem to imply, are you telling me that we wouldn't be in any better of a situation than we're in right now?
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:24 PM   #55
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Re: We must draft better...

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Originally Posted by #56fanatic
I will go through them in a second, but the cap is a NFL wide thing. the Redskins dont have a different cap. the articles I posted are regarding the NFL cap. just like rules, the NFL, NBA, MLB all have rules. Certain teams dont have there own rules to operate, they operate under the same umbrella.
On the Warpath's main page you'll see a link to the left hand side of the screen for Salary Cap Info. Click that and you'll get a set of spreadsheets with tabs at the bottom. Click on the cap summary sheet to see the players' cap figures for each season. These sheets are managed by CrazyCanuck.

I'm not saying there are different rules for the Redskins. I'm saying that the Redskins have not put themselves in the precarious situation that you are making them out to be in. When you examine the numbers, you can tell me where the major problems are that will cause us to dismantle our squad. Because I don't see it.
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:37 PM   #56
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Re: We must draft better...

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven
"Cap Hell" may not be what everybody perceives it to be -- everyone uses San Fransisco as the ultimate example. They had to purge their roster, now look at them.

While the Skins haven't fallen to that point, our version of Cap Hell might be less debilitating, but still negates our ability to keep the players once they become free agents -- Smoot and Pierce are the most recent examples. Can you imagine how retaining those players could have helped us out now?
OK first off, the reason we had to let Smoot and Pierce go was because we ran up against the cap. I'll give you that. But the reason we ran up against the cap is because we are carrying so much dead money for L Coles and J Trotter. Both of those players were signed under the Spurrier regime, and were deemed not to fit with the new coaching staff. If you're going to change coaches every year or so, then no, it doesn't makes sense to sign guys to big bonuses, because there is a good chance they won't fit with the new regime. But somehow I think we've solved the revolving door at the head coaching position, and the front office appears to be quite stable. Even on defense when Williams ultimately leaves, Blache will take over and be able to keep the same talent.

My main point is that the moves being made since Gibbs came back have been of a much more prudent nature. The Springs, Griffin, Washington and Salavea'a signings were not exhorbitant with signing bonuses. Portis and Samuels have gotten big bonuses under the Gibbs regime. But they are rocks on our team, and are both young. You see that the front office has changed it's ways with giving out signing bonuses, which is a good thing. It's just that they still have to deal with some mistakes made by the Spurrier regime.

I definitely am not saying the Skins managed the cap very well back in 2003. The signing bonuses were too large. But now if you notice the deals they're giving out, there's less in the signing bonus and more in roster and workout bonuses. That really helps the cap situation.

I think the current regime has it down pat at this point.
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:44 PM   #57
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Re: We must draft better...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemnseven
I think we can safely say that cap constraints were a factor in our inability to retain Fred Smoot and Antonio Pierce.

Look, if this everything's coming up roses with regard to personnel decision-making and cap management as some here seem to imply, are you telling me that we wouldn't be in any better of a situation than we're in right now?
I agree with you here, Beem. If we hadn't given Coles and Trotter such big signing bonuses, we probably could have kept Smoot and Pierce. But the point is the Gibbs regime has learned those lessons through the mistakes of the Spurrier regime. Since Gibbs took over, I haven't seen one deal signed that could be considered potentially crippling to the salary cap.

The thing about the salary cap is the mistakes you make in the past haunt you in the present. The mistakes you make in the present don't haunt you until the future. We can't do anything about past mistakes at this point, except learn from them. So the question is what mistakes are we making today? As I look at the numbers, I don't see any.
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:49 PM   #58
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Re: We must draft better...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemnseven
I think we can safely say that cap constraints were a factor in our inability to retain Fred Smoot and Antonio Pierce.

Look, if this everything's coming up roses with regard to personnel decision-making and cap management as some here seem to imply, are you telling me that we wouldn't be in any better of a situation than we're in right now?
I'm not denying that cap constraints played a role in our inability to re-sign both Smoot & Pierce, though I would argue a deal with Pierce was on the table so the Skins obviously had some room for him, not as much as he wanted but that's life.

Nobody is implying our cap situation is perfect, but the argument is are we headed towards an impending cap hell, and I argue we definitely are not.
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:50 PM   #59
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Re: We must draft better...

Here are the players who got big signing bonuses under Gibbs:

Carlos Rogers $9.1 million
Clinton Portis $11.5 million
Cornelius Griffin $8.3 million
Marcus Washington $7 million
Mark Brunell $8.6 million
Santana Moss $10 million
Sean Taylor $11.6 million
Shawn Springs $10.2 million

In my eyes, based on their play over the last two years, every single one of them has justified those bonuses and then some, with the exception of Rogers who needs more time to prove himself. Brunell's contract was steep at the time of signing, but ask yourself, where would we be without him right now?

Kudos to the current staff. There's a reason we've already won more games this year than we did last year.
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Old 12-13-2005, 11:24 PM   #60
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Re: We must draft better...

OH WELL, I was looking for a discussion on our draft experience, and it started out that way, but by god, "CAP HELL" took over. I sure would like to have a discussion on our drafting. I am not sure where to get the info for other teams, but it would be worth while to compare with maybe the feagles, the giants, the cowgirls, and the pats.

If anyone has a website, I'll do the analysis!
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