[mheisig]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

Laws affect all people, so you can't look at a specific situation to prove the rule. Across the entire population, there is a 100% certainty that there are unintended consequences to owning a firearm.

I wasn't really speaking about any of this with respect to nationwide laws, but with respect to an individual's personal choices. If we are discussing legislation, then we also can't look at the specific situation of an untrained person accidentally shooting their own son any more than we can look at a trained individual accurately shooting a intruder.

That's a strawman argument, but it seems to come up often, so allow me to debunk it. The natural use of any of those other items is non-injurious to anyone. The natural use of a gun (and by use I mean firing it) is injurious.

Good point about the natural use of a firearm. I fail to see how that debunks anything however. That natural purpose IS injurious, I'd argue deadly (if it functions as it should.) What's wrong with that? If an intruder breaks into my home with the intent of harming my family, you are absolutely correct that I will not hesitate to end their life.

Going with your argument, if the natural use of a car is transportation, will it make you feel better that its natural use isn't injurious when some idiot on the road loses control and hits you and your family head-on? Will you say, "Well, at least it wasn't intended for injury, that makes me feel better."

The intended use of a firearm is injury or death, just as it should be. Employed properly, this results in the protection of the innocent against the evil. Employed negligently it can result in accidental injury. Employed maliciously it can cause intentional injury or death of the innocent perpetrated by the evil.

The intended purpose of a car is transportation. Employed properly it results in peaceful transportation of people and cargo from point A to point B. Employed negligently it can result in accidental death or injury. Employed maliciously it can cause the same injurious or deadly consequences as a firearm.

What's the difference?

First, I still don't agree that "training taking over" is going to get you through this situation 100% of the time in the manner you intended (I found this interesting article that appears to support neither of our positions, or both - I can't tell). The risks just aren't worth it in my house.

I, nor anyone I know of like mind, would say it's 100%. Highly trained marksmen sometimes end up on the wrong end of things. Nothing is a guarantee, and anyone arguing that it is is being disingenuous.

A method doesn't have to be 100% to be effective or reasonable. I am perfectly willing to accept that I may end up on the wrong end of a gunfight. I am, however, confident enough in my training and experience to accept the risks.

If you find a 100% effective and safe method of self-defense, let me know and we'll partner up to sell it and make billions.

Second, the flaw with the "gun safety by training" arguments in this thread is that they focus on the top 10-20% (and I am being extremely generous with that guestimate) of the gun-owning population. Given the amount of training that you have gone through and your background, I have no reason to doubt that you are a better marksman than the average police officer. I would venture to guess that the gun-owners with which you associate are like-minded in their view of the importance of vigorous training.

However, this argument ignores the fact that the vast majority of people who own guns do not take the time to get the training that you describe. If this training were made mandatory, then I might be a little more comfortable with the idea.

I can't even make an overall guess as to the training level of most gun owners. I'm sure there are plenty who are completely unqualified to own or operate a firearm. My personal belief is that the answer is education, not blind fear and mass banning.

I still think you have something of an exaggerated perspective on firearms training. If I had to venture a guess, I would say your experience with firearms has slight or nonexistent (and that's not an insult, just an observation). I've been a novice, I've known little to nothing about guns. I've also received excellent training and progressed. I've seen and trained others who have gone from barely knowing which end to point, to being extremely competent and skilled operators. It is NOT that difficult. Let me repeat myself, it is NOT that difficult. I am nothing special - I am extremely average. I have taken it upon myself to understand firearms and learn to operate them safely and effectively. In my mind that does NOT move me into some elite category.

As I mentioned before, the notion that police officers have some level of training and expertise with respect to firearms that the average civilian could never attain is preposterous. Again, as I said, any person with a modicum of intelligence and common sense can take a few thousand dollars, 5 days of their time, and be as well trained or better trained than a police officer. That I am 100% confident about, because I've seen it done time and time again without fail.

Do I have high standards with respect to a person's seriousness about handling firearm? Your damn right. I also have high standards about how someone should educate themselves in general, about keeping a certain level of physical fitness, about being rational and responsible as well.

To answer what dmek25 said also, I think what we're getting back to here (finally!) is what amount to a personal choice of ethics. I'll say right up front that the chances of changing anyone's ethic on a internet message board is slim to none.

That being said, I personally feel that the bar should be raised and people expected to reach for it as opposed to enacting massive, sweeping laws to remove the responsibility from the citizen. The responsibility is YOURS, not anyone else's, and I don't think it should be any different. I will continue to train and make myself better in every facet of life which I can control, and I expect the same of everyone else.

It almost literally brings a tear to my eye to see so much of this country sit back, fold their hands, and expect someone else (i.e. the government) take care of their problems. I take some solace in the fact that I am not like that, that I'm not raisin my kids like that, and I know a good number of others who feel the same.

God forbid something like Katrina happen on a nationwide scale, or terrorism become a regular part of everyday American life, because I fear that many in his country have trained themselves to be sheep.