Winslow or Taylor at #5, or #7 or #8?

raleighskinsfan · 03-10-2004, 09:58 AM

According to the Post today, Gibbs says we're staying pat at #5 and taking the pick-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Mar9.html

But he also mentions we would trade down if the right "impossible to turn down"offer came-
Obviously I'm hoping for the scenario Joe Crisp posted earlier today- we trade down to #7 or #8 and are still able to get one of our two favorites, Kellen Winslow Jr. or Sean Taylor-

Which would you guys prefer?

There is the "defense wins championships" arguement, but can you imagine opposing defenses trying to stop an offense that includes Brunell, Portis, Coles, Gardner AND Winslow, Jr.? Which part of the field would you double cover? You can't cover the whole field with that many weapons, can you??

On the flip side- having a safety like Taylor delivering punishing blows and snatching picks is huge, especially in big games. But how much of an upgrade is he over Bowen and Ohalete?

Doesn't Winslow Jr. fill a bigger hole?

I'm going to be ecstatic (especially if we can drop to #7 or #8 and pick up an additional 3rd- or is that too high?) either way b/c I love both players....
But I'd like to see if there is a concencus among warpathers....

skinsfanthru&thru · 03-10-2004, 10:33 AM

are there any possible good safeties that may be cut after the june 1st deadline or next year? I think our defense is good enough as is this year especially with how I think they will play under a defensive coach who know's what he's doing. that being said I draft winslow if they r both there but if he's gone and Taylor's there then that wouldn't be terrible either. I remember every football expert and broadcaster saying last year all it would take for Kansas City to win the championship would be for their defense to be ranked around 15th or so in the league and I think our offense has the potential to be better than KC and our defensive personel and coaches are better than KC so why shouldn;t the same be said about DC? How much freaking fun would it be to see the skins scoring close to 30 points a week? if a team concentrates on the run we've got brunell/ramsey throwing the ball to Coles, Gardner, Mccants, and possibly Winslow. We've up close how much a player like shockey can do to an opposing teams defense so why not draft a TE who is better than shockey and even harder to guard? just my 2 cents

cpayne5 · 03-10-2004, 10:59 AM

I don't think that TE is a hole right now. I think we can get by with who we have there now. We don't have to have a pass catching TE - especially with the threat of Portis coming out of the backfield. I like the idea of taking Taylor. With Taylor, Bowen would go back to SS while Taylor played FS. Either 'cane is ok by me.

skins009 · 03-10-2004, 11:02 AM

I would go tayler for sure. As of right now I don't think our defense is gonna be much better than last year even with Gregg Williams running it. We still wont' be able to generate much pass rush from our front four and we still don't have a legitimate run stuffer. Plus we have lost champ bailey in the secondary. I think we need an impact defensive player with our 5th pick be it Shawn Tayler, Tommie Harris, or Vince Wilfork.

Gmanc711 · 03-10-2004, 11:15 AM

I really dont think either TE or S is a hole. I would like to go with Taylor cause he's a defensive guy and I think we need more on our D than our offense at this point. Ultimatley, I would like to see us get a big dlinemen, but I think coaching will help our d alot anyways, so a playmaker like Taylor would be awsome. But I wouldnt mind KW2 either.

RedskinRat · 03-10-2004, 11:48 AM

I'm hoping it's Taylor, having him and Bowen back there will make any offense wince on the way through.

cpayne5 · 03-10-2004, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

I really dont think either TE or S is a hole. I would like to go with Taylor cause he's a defensive guy and I think we need more on our D than our offense at this point. Ultimatley, I would like to see us get a big dlinemen, but I think coaching will help our d alot anyways, so a playmaker like Taylor would be awsome. But I wouldnt mind KW2 either.

I couldn't agree more.

Defensewins · 03-10-2004, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinsfanthru&thru

...Kansas City to win the championship would be for their defense to be ranked around 15th or so in the league and I think our offense has the potential to be better than KC and our defensive personel and coaches are better than KC so why shouldn;t the same be said about DC? How much freaking fun would it be to see the skins scoring close to 30 points a week? if a team concentrates on the run we've got brunell/ramsey throwing the ball to Coles, Gardner, Mccants, and possibly Winslow. We've up close how much a player like shockey can do to an opposing teams defense so why not draft a TE who is better than shockey and even harder to guard? just my 2 cents

Defense wins games and championships. Look at both Super bowl participants this year and the winner the year before. The media whined all week before the super bowl because the fan favorites (because of their offense) Colts, Chiefs and Eagles got beat (soundly) in the playoffs. Manning got intercepted like 4 times? The Chief were embarrassed.
I also seem to remember the WR Taylor Jacob fans after the draft last year saying the same thing you are saying now, 'This going to be fun, with Coles, Gardner, Jacobs, McCants and Johnson who are they going to double cover? The offense is going to score a hundred points a game, etc. etc.'
What good is scoring 40 points a game if your defense gives up 41?
Neither one of the two super bowl champions had/have a TE to remember.
Pro bowl TE's Gonzalez and Shockey etc. were sitting at home watching the game on TV. Patriots and Carolina's defense got them to the superbowl. The Skins need to stop ignoring their defense's needs in order to get the next Taylor Jacobs.

Defensewins · 03-10-2004, 12:27 PM

PT.2
I am not comparing the talent levels of Taylor Jacobs and Kellen Winslow Jr.
Winslow is going to be a star, Jacobs is not yet near that level.
I am just comparing the need at their positions on our roster in comparison to other greater needs. We more desperately need a pass rush DE or upgrade the important Saftey position. Free Saftey is the QB on defense. Ohalete is physically adequate, but he is not who I want leading our Defense. We need a team leader like Sean Taylor.

Skins fan 44 · 03-10-2004, 12:52 PM

Both are tough to pass up. Is Rasby the TE of the future? I think Rasby is a good blocker but can he catch the ball? We can get a safty elsewhere. If Winslow is gone we can get Taylor. I know deffense win championships but you also have to put points on the board to win.

Defensewins · 03-10-2004, 01:06 PM

Last years Colts and KC will disagree with you.
Under Gibbs system you platoon the TE's. Rasby is the blocker. Byron Chamberlain, Robert Royal, Leonard Stephens or Kevin Ware will be the pass catchers.
Gibbs won three super bowls with Rick Walker, Don Warren and Clint Didier. None of those guys was a pro bowler or will be inducted to the hall of fame.

saden1 · 03-10-2004, 01:28 PM

You guys talk as if Bowen is a good safety. He is adequate at best but he sure as hell can’t cover shit. Depending on how good Spring & Smoot Combo is, Bowen will be exposed a lot.

I personally think we need a solid defensive lineman. I think it would be a mistake to pickup an offensive player with all the weapons we have on offense.

joecrisp · 03-10-2004, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raleighskinsfan

I'm going to be ecstatic (especially if we can drop to #7 or #8 and pick up an additional 3rd- or is that too high?) either way b/c I love both players....

According to the "Trade Value Chart" (http://www.nfldraftview.com/tvchart.html), the #5 overall pick should be worth the #7 overall, plus at least a mid-3rd rounder (#79 overall), or another combination of picks that total 1800 points in value (#7 plus a late 3rd and late 4th, for example). For the Falcons to trade up from #8, they would have to give the Skins at least a late 2nd rounder (#61 overall), in addition to the #8 pick, for the trade to be equitable. They could also package a mid-3rd (#79) and a high-4th (#100) to go with their 1st rounder.

The risk the Redskins run here is that the Lions could very well take Taylor OR Winslow at #6, though I feel like the Lions are in the market for a trade-down themselves, as they could be looking to pickup RBs Jones or Jackson in the mid-to-late first round (before the Cowboys and Patriots pick).

cpayne5 · 03-10-2004, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saden1

You guys talk as if Bowen is a good safety. He is adequate at best but he sure as hell can’t cover shit. Depending on how good Spring & Smoot Combo is, Bowen will be exposed a lot.

I personally think we need a solid defensive lineman. I think it would be a mistake to pickup an offensive player with all the weapons we have on offense.

Bowen got burned a lot last year because he wasn't playing his natural position.

raleighskinsfan · 03-10-2004, 02:03 PM

This is exactly why I love this board. Thanks for the analysis of the value of the picks Joe Crisp!
I don't know about you guys, but defensewins is starting to sway me with his points. The point he (or someone) made about the safety being the qb of the defense is an important point. If we can have an impact playmaker at that position, it will improve our overall d by leaps and bounds. We have plenty of offensive talent- it's time to spread some over to the D. Plus, imagine having two bruisers like Bowen and Taylor patrolling our middle- with Smoot and Springs on the corners, we would have a complete secondary... Hopefully we can trade down with the Falcons to #8, pick up that late 2nd rounder (#61 overall), still snag Taylor, and pick up a pass rushing DE at #61. Who might be left with that pick????

03-10-2004, 09:58 AM	#1
raleighskinsfan Camp Scrub Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 62	Winslow or Taylor at #5, or #7 or #8? According to the Post today, Gibbs says we're staying pat at #5 and taking the pick- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Mar9.html But he also mentions we would trade down if the right "impossible to turn down"offer came- Obviously I'm hoping for the scenario Joe Crisp posted earlier today- we trade down to #7 or #8 and are still able to get one of our two favorites, Kellen Winslow Jr. or Sean Taylor- Which would you guys prefer? There is the "defense wins championships" arguement, but can you imagine opposing defenses trying to stop an offense that includes Brunell, Portis, Coles, Gardner AND Winslow, Jr.? Which part of the field would you double cover? You can't cover the whole field with that many weapons, can you?? On the flip side- having a safety like Taylor delivering punishing blows and snatching picks is huge, especially in big games. But how much of an upgrade is he over Bowen and Ohalete? Doesn't Winslow Jr. fill a bigger hole? I'm going to be ecstatic (especially if we can drop to #7 or #8 and pick up an additional 3rd- or is that too high?) either way b/c I love both players.... But I'd like to see if there is a concencus among warpathers....

03-10-2004, 10:33 AM	#2
skinsfanthru&thru Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Age: 45 Posts: 3,814	are there any possible good safeties that may be cut after the june 1st deadline or next year? I think our defense is good enough as is this year especially with how I think they will play under a defensive coach who know's what he's doing. that being said I draft winslow if they r both there but if he's gone and Taylor's there then that wouldn't be terrible either. I remember every football expert and broadcaster saying last year all it would take for Kansas City to win the championship would be for their defense to be ranked around 15th or so in the league and I think our offense has the potential to be better than KC and our defensive personel and coaches are better than KC so why shouldn;t the same be said about DC? How much freaking fun would it be to see the skins scoring close to 30 points a week? if a team concentrates on the run we've got brunell/ramsey throwing the ball to Coles, Gardner, Mccants, and possibly Winslow. We've up close how much a player like shockey can do to an opposing teams defense so why not draft a TE who is better than shockey and even harder to guard? just my 2 cents

03-10-2004, 10:59 AM	#3
cpayne5 Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,807	I don't think that TE is a hole right now. I think we can get by with who we have there now. We don't have to have a pass catching TE - especially with the threat of Portis coming out of the backfield. I like the idea of taking Taylor. With Taylor, Bowen would go back to SS while Taylor played FS. Either 'cane is ok by me.

03-10-2004, 11:02 AM	#4
skins009 Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 528	I would go tayler for sure. As of right now I don't think our defense is gonna be much better than last year even with Gregg Williams running it. We still wont' be able to generate much pass rush from our front four and we still don't have a legitimate run stuffer. Plus we have lost champ bailey in the secondary. I think we need an impact defensive player with our 5th pick be it Shawn Tayler, Tommie Harris, or Vince Wilfork.

03-10-2004, 11:15 AM	#5
Gmanc711 Thank You, Sean. Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Age: 39 Posts: 7,506	I really dont think either TE or S is a hole. I would like to go with Taylor cause he's a defensive guy and I think we need more on our D than our offense at this point. Ultimatley, I would like to see us get a big dlinemen, but I think coaching will help our d alot anyways, so a playmaker like Taylor would be awsome. But I wouldnt mind KW2 either. __________________ #21

03-10-2004, 11:48 AM	#6
RedskinRat Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: I'm in LA, trick! Posts: 8,700	I'm hoping it's Taylor, having him and Bowen back there will make any offense wince on the way through.

03-10-2004, 12:27 PM	#9
Defensewins Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 3,765	PT.2 I am not comparing the talent levels of Taylor Jacobs and Kellen Winslow Jr. Winslow is going to be a star, Jacobs is not yet near that level. I am just comparing the need at their positions on our roster in comparison to other greater needs. We more desperately need a pass rush DE or upgrade the important Saftey position. Free Saftey is the QB on defense. Ohalete is physically adequate, but he is not who I want leading our Defense. We need a team leader like Sean Taylor.

03-10-2004, 12:52 PM	#10
Skins fan 44 Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brazil, IN Age: 54 Posts: 883	Both are tough to pass up. Is Rasby the TE of the future? I think Rasby is a good blocker but can he catch the ball? We can get a safty elsewhere. If Winslow is gone we can get Taylor. I know deffense win championships but you also have to put points on the board to win.

03-10-2004, 01:06 PM	#11
Defensewins Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 3,765	Last years Colts and KC will disagree with you. Under Gibbs system you platoon the TE's. Rasby is the blocker. Byron Chamberlain, Robert Royal, Leonard Stephens or Kevin Ware will be the pass catchers. Gibbs won three super bowls with Rick Walker, Don Warren and Clint Didier. None of those guys was a pro bowler or will be inducted to the hall of fame.

03-10-2004, 01:28 PM	#12
saden1 MVP Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Seattle Age: 46 Posts: 10,069	You guys talk as if Bowen is a good safety. He is adequate at best but he sure as hell can’t cover shit. Depending on how good Spring & Smoot Combo is, Bowen will be exposed a lot. I personally think we need a solid defensive lineman. I think it would be a mistake to pickup an offensive player with all the weapons we have on offense.

03-10-2004, 02:03 PM	#15
raleighskinsfan Camp Scrub Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 62	This is exactly why I love this board. Thanks for the analysis of the value of the picks Joe Crisp! I don't know about you guys, but defensewins is starting to sway me with his points. The point he (or someone) made about the safety being the qb of the defense is an important point. If we can have an impact playmaker at that position, it will improve our overall d by leaps and bounds. We have plenty of offensive talent- it's time to spread some over to the D. Plus, imagine having two bruisers like Bowen and Taylor patrolling our middle- with Smoot and Springs on the corners, we would have a complete secondary... Hopefully we can trade down with the Falcons to #8, pick up that late 2nd rounder (#61 overall), still snag Taylor, and pick up a pass rushing DE at #61. Who might be left with that pick????

Winslow or Taylor at #5, or #7 or #8?

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