How the Hell is this happening!

[gortiz]

First and foremost, I still think St. Joe will turn this thing around, and I have faith, but looking at this today really shook me up....someone help explain this to me!

Under then FIRST year coach Spurrier, the 2002 redskins went 7-9 and scored over 20 points 10 times that year, his QB was a rookie Pat Ramsey and journeyman Shane Matthews, our WR's were Kevin Lockett McCants, Thompson, Gardner.

I know our offensive is struggling and I'm sure Its not because of these things....

• Its not talent,
• it can't be all execution cause you should score over 18 at least by accident in the span of 10 games.
• Its not the schedule.
• and its nots injuries. Look at Carolina....they got injuries, not us.
• I won't believe that Gibbs has let the game pass him by that much.
• and God knows its not bad practice, attitude, or motivation...

I can confidently say that it is not any of those things I listed....what then???

[sportscurmudgeon]

It IS the talent. There are a few really good players and lots of players that have been hyped to be "outstanding" but who are merely "slightly above average".

It is the players on the field who do not execute. Joe Bugel did not the two illegal motion penalties and the holding penalty when the skins had first and goal at the ten. Joe Gibbs did not drop the two passes that hit receivers in the hands in that sequence of plays.

Talent deficiencies on the current team:

They need an upgrade at WR. Coles is good but not great. Nothing behind him is better than average.

They heec an upgrade at offensive guard and center. They need Jansen back at strength to play LT.

Cooley has promise as a tight end. None of the others on the team are anything other than back-ups.

The RBs are fine - - as long as they don't have to play Cartwright.

I think they had a problme at QB for the immediate future because Brunell looks really bad and Ramsey just doesn't get it yet. And Tim Hasselbeck is not the answer either.

The DL has two good players and the rest are waiver wire specials. One danger here is that GRiffin - one of the good players - has a history of playing good one year and playing very nonchalantely the next year. If that happens, the defense will take a step back next year.

The LBs are fine.

They still need a safety and they need a much better nickel back and dime back than they have. (Apologies to Ade JImoh Fan Club; he just doesn't get it done...)

I think that it is entirely the on-field talent that needs to shoulder the blame for the season.

[VTSkins897]

psssh... talent level shud not shoulder the seasons failure. how about an offense that is, relative to its talent level, by far the poorest in the NFL... execution and talent on D is the only reason each game is bearable. i dont review tape or analyze games but we have, what seems to me to be a serious problem in our offensive scheming. i think gibbs will eventually put something together...
and as for drops, penalties... isnt gibbs the guy that wouldnt tolerate that... that was supposed to disappear... hah... so what we have is a horrid O thats no focused at all...
what gibbs was known for, and supposed to bring back to DC must still be sittin in a pit stop somewhere cos i havent seen nothin

[gortiz]

I agree,

I don't think that our talent can shoulder the blame for our offense, I'm talking strictly offense, here.....comparing us to carolina, or cincy, two teams that have shown forms of life on offense, we have pretty good talent....now, I'll be the first to admit that we tend to hype up Coles, Gardner, Samuels, ect....

I want reasons why our offense is so bad, and can't even score over 20 points in ten games when the 2002 skins scored over 20 points, 10 times in 16 games??? I don't think its talent....we got at worst, an average football team talent wise....anyone agree or disagree with that argument.....

[bedlamVR]

I disagree with the dismissing of P-Ram because in his first start against one of the dominant teams and a scallled back play book and lead handed recievers showed some of the same poise and skills that got everyone excited in the first place.

You dismissed the thought the game was lack of execution but when you are the ten threatening to score then move the ball out of FG through penalties and dropped passes thats kind of a punch to the guts that knocks the wind out of the team.

Execution again why is it Portis can find his game some games but looses it again when we most need it. Why can our O line not disrupt the opposing D plans weathit it be blitz the hell out of the QB or keying on Portis. Again no running game though makes the enire team drop its shoulders.

And finally injuries, sure Carolina has injuries but thier record shows that the problem with our injuries are they are key players team lifters we have lost two starting safties which in turn restricts the DBs available , two starting LBS and a couple of back ups as well, two OL with Thomas possibly going down for the year , two defensive line men Griffin is in proball form and missing and key special teams players. In a rebuilding learning year these are the kinds of losses we really cannot afford.

[That Guy]

so SC, our WRs are worse now than in 2002? our TEs? our QBs? (PR is still here, shanes a backup)...

seriously, it seems like you only think a player is good if he has TO type talent... we're doing less offensively now (with more talent) than spurrier had two years ago... so i'd like to hear how that team was twice as "talented" as our current roster, and that playcalling had nothing to do with the W/L ratio either...

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

It IS the talent. There are a few really good players and lots of players that have been hyped to be "outstanding" but who are merely "slightly above average".

It is the players on the field who do not execute. Joe Bugel did not the two illegal motion penalties and the holding penalty when the skins had first and goal at the ten. Joe Gibbs did not drop the two passes that hit receivers in the hands in that sequence of plays.

Talent deficiencies on the current team:

They need an upgrade at WR. Coles is good but not great. Nothing behind him is better than average.

They heec an upgrade at offensive guard and center. They need Jansen back at strength to play LT.

Cooley has promise as a tight end. None of the others on the team are anything other than back-ups.

The RBs are fine - - as long as they don't have to play Cartwright.

I think they had a problme at QB for the immediate future because Brunell looks really bad and Ramsey just doesn't get it yet. And Tim Hasselbeck is not the answer either.

The DL has two good players and the rest are waiver wire specials. One danger here is that GRiffin - one of the good players - has a history of playing good one year and playing very nonchalantely the next year. If that happens, the defense will take a step back next year.

The LBs are fine.

They still need a safety and they need a much better nickel back and dime back than they have. (Apologies to Ade JImoh Fan Club; he just doesn't get it done...)

I think that it is entirely the on-field talent that needs to shoulder the blame for the season.

What you're saying could apply to a lot of teams though:

Coles is playing hurt, Gardner is one of the more underrated receivers in my opinion. And Jacobs and McCants are young and I think getting better

Is that a typo or are you saying Jansen should be our LT? If so, I agree get rid of Samuels

Cooley is just a rookie, too soon to write him off and how many starting TEs do you expect them to have?

Need a safety? This take into account Bowen and Lott who are hurt?

[Drift Reality]

Yeah - I'm not so sure about some of sportscurmudgeon's analysis.

1. WR talent is fine. They get open deep, but we haven't been able to hit the deep ball yet. I think they need some time to gel with Ramsey, but also, Coles is playing somewhat injured this year and I think we can all agree Gardiner, "50/50," may not be the best 2nd receiver on the team.

2. I think our interior OL is fine. They held up well today and are getting better. The injury to Randy Thomas scares me. Obviously, RT has been a huge sore point, but next year, Jansen will hopefully step back in and play at his pro-bowl level over there.

3. I think all those other guys are back there for blocking primarily - and have done a decent job. Gibbs doesn't want a Shockey at TE, or rather, doesn't need a Shockey at TE - he needs solid hard-nosed blockers.

4. I may be the only one, but I think Ramsey showed a lot during the game. He has quickly learned how to play how Gibbs wants him to play. Once he has earned Gibbs' trust, I think you'll see the reigns come off a bit, and I think you'll see him start hitting some deep passes with more consistency. I think he looked great running the offense - he went 21 for 34 and had about 5 or 6 drops. If the receivers had held on to the ball, he would have completed over 75% of his passes!

They are a first-year team with a first-year coach! They have been playing tough, hard-nosed football and just have not had that certain je ne sais crois this year.

But....they are learning and fighting together, as a team. If the front-office does its job, resigns Smoot and Pierce in the offseason, and drafts well, I think you'll see a 12-4 team next year.

[MTK]

While I like our WR's, I just laugh when someone says we have one of the best WR groups in the league.

Coles hasn't been the same since his toe injury. He was a playmaker that defenses feared before, now he's just another WR. I really have to wonder if he's ever going to be the same again.

Gardner is still too damn inconsistent.

McCants and Jacobs are still relatively unproven in this league.

Thrash provides good depth but he showed in Philly that he can't be counted on to be a go-to guy.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

It IS the talent. There are a few really good players and lots of players that have been hyped to be "outstanding" but who are merely "slightly above average".

It is the players on the field who do not execute. Joe Bugel did not the two illegal motion penalties and the holding penalty when the skins had first and goal at the ten. Joe Gibbs did not drop the two passes that hit receivers in the hands in that sequence of plays.

I think that it is entirely the on-field talent that needs to shoulder the blame for the season.

Danny, is that you? Snyder my man, I thought that was you. So how do you think you're going to get around the salary cap?

I'm with you, I say we totally revamp our roster. Maybe we can get Peyton Manning with McNabb as our backup, Moss might be a good #2 wideout, etc. Thank God we're finally going to try to overhaul our roster. We haven't tried making some changes to our roster yet. Salary cap, schmallery cap.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

While I like our WR's, I just laugh when someone says we have one of the best WR groups in the league.

Coles hasn't been the same since his toe injury. He was a playmaker that defenses feared before, now he's just another WR. I really have to wonder if he's ever going to be the same again.

Gardner is still too damn inconsistent.

McCants and Jacobs are still relatively unproven in this league.

Thrash provides good depth but he showed in Philly that he can't be counted on to be a go-to guy.

Matty, you were one of those people (like me) who said we had one of the best WR corps in the league.

[JWsleep]

How can y'all possibly judge the WRs given the QB play and the play calling? While they certainly aren't the best in the league, I really don't think that's a particular weak spot right now. But like I say, we don't really know: Peyton Manning makes WRs look great; Mark Brunell makes them look like do-do. We'll see with Ramsey. My guess is the WRs are going to start looking a lot better.

[Redskins_P]

Originally Posted by JWsleep

How can y'all possibly judge the WRs given the QB play and the play calling? While they certainly aren't the best in the league, I really don't think that's a particular weak spot right now. But like I say, we don't really know: Peyton Manning makes WRs look great; Mark Brunell makes them look like do-do. We'll see with Ramsey. My guess is the WRs are going to start looking a lot better.

As long as they keep on dropping balls, they're gonna be viewed as a "weak spot" on our team.

[skinsguy]

I think SC is absolutely right; especially about the wide receivers. Coles is good, but he hasn't shown the brilliance that he did in New York....but I'll give him the fact that he's been injured even though he had the same injury last season and I figured that would have been taken care off in the off season. Cooley has developed into a decent tight end, but as SC states, there is no one else to go to as far as passing tight ends. The RB position is fine, but one thing I would upgrade is the full back position. We need a big guy to come in on those third and ones or third and shorts...a Bettis type of guy. Portis would still be our number one RB, but his running style doesn't match up too well in these situations. Another thing that is missing that Gibbs had in his previous tenure (which goes along with the big full back) is the jumble package. On downs where the yardage was short, Gibbs would take out of his smaller quicker linemen and replace them with bigger linemen that could shove any D-line back...it was almost automatic that we would get the first down or TD (depending on the situation.) I haven't seen anything like that this year, but I think that is something that could help us to make those first downs easier when right now 3 and short is still a challenge.

Don't get me wrong, I do think our receivers have the talent, size, skills...but I think it comes back to what I said before... the sport is 90% mental 10% physical..and we need at least one Art Monk type of receiver on our team.

[sportscurmudgeon]

Instead of expressing shock and horror that someone - OK it's me - might suggest that the on-field talent is deficient, please explain to me how:

If the WR corps is "one of the best in the league" AND

If Patrick Ramsey is bordering on greatness with his courage and strong arm

The Redskins scored two field goals yesterday? TWO DAMNED FIELD GOALS!


By the way, the Redskins are now the lowest scoring team in the NFL - lower than the Miami Dolphins and the SF 49ers!! We KNOW that those teams have talent problems but for some reason when it comes to Washington, it isn't the talent on the field; it is something else. Wanna buy some beachfront property in Nebraska?


The offensive line - which is satisfactory to many here - generated all of 51 yards rushing yesterday. Remember, the weakness of the Eagles' defense was supposed to be that you could run on them. What happened?


It isn't worth the trouble to go and look up the exact numbers here but there have been 10 games so far this year. My guess is that the entire wide receiver corps has less than 10 TDs. I know Gardner has 4 or 5 and Cooley has 3 or 4 and Coles has 1. That's it; that's the list; none of the others has produced a point. Note, I'm being generous here and adding Cooley into the wide receiver stats so that they are not really embarrassing.


If I go to some other team websites, how many of them will have fewer than 10 TD by their WRs for the season now? A dozen? I'm not sure it is that high but it isn't worth the effort to go and check it out. We do know that the Eagles will not be one of the teams below 10 TD receptions because their lead receiver has 13 TDs this year and the Skins' lead receiver has 1. That's some kind of disparity.



Ramseyfan:


I wish you were right and that I was Danny Boy Snyder. The first thing I'd do is take a trip around the world and start enjoying my wealth instead of trying to meddle in a football team that I obviously know nothing about and making myself look like the village idiot. Correction, make that the metropolitan idiot!


The point is that the team has a lot of money invested in and tied up in players who are good - but not good enough. If they were good enough they would be just a tad better than 8 - 18 in the past two seasons.


The secret to winning in a salary cap era for more than one year is to be able to identify and sign and train YOUNG talented football players who do not cost much versus the cap. Then you can sign some "high paid talent" - and it damned well better be the right ones - and you can blend them together. When one of the guys who has played well but not great for you wants a big contract, you thank him for his services and release him. When one of the guys who has played really well for you has time left on his deal, you get him signed to a long term cap-freindly deal. That's how it's done and it all begins with the identification of young talent.

Note, young talent is often low round picks and undrafted free agents and not big-name draft picks that get a lot of play on the mock draft boards. The Eagles starting DTs yesterday were both undrafted free agents. They were spelled by another DT who was an undrafted free agent and a first round draft pick. They do not have a lot of money tied up there, but they have played decently, this year, no? Or would you argue that the Redskins' DL is better than the Eagles' DL?

And that is what has been in short supply here for the past 5-8 years and that is why the records in that period of time have been "discouraging". And the only way to change it is to start getting many more young players who are much more capable and starting the blending process with those high paid vets who are worth retaining.

Does that sound like "blowing up the team"? It should. Because that's probably what it's gonna take. But there are all those folks who think the Skins are one or at most two players short of being a Super Bowl contender, and so to keep them happy, maybe all we need to do is sign a couple of glitzy free agents in March and draft someone we can fly in on a helicopter in April and then go 5-11 again next year.