Creative route running for WRs

hurrykaine · 12-29-2004, 01:14 PM

Since this went unanswered in another forum, I thought I'd bring it up again in a new thread.

Here's something that baffles me. Why doesn't Gibbs' playbook feature any creative route running (especially cross-routes) for the WRs? Brandon Stokely doesn't exactly have blazing speed, but how many times have you seen him catch TDs completely untouched, with no DBs within 10 yards of him? Surely his speed is not what's causing the separation. The separation is only attributable to creative route running, or Peyton being a shifty-eyed mofo and conning the DBs, or both.

Why can't we incorporate this into our offense? Someone please enlighten us. I suppose for starters, we have to beef up the O-line so that we don't have to block with 8, and this would release an additional receiver that would contribute to more of a downfield threat.

MTK · 12-29-2004, 01:45 PM

You said it yourself right there at the end.

Until we beef up the line so we can get consistently solid pass protection, it doesn't matter how creative your offense is.

Paintrain · 12-29-2004, 02:07 PM

Matty, I agree and disagree about the protection. Manning seemingly has all day to throw, but I saw something on NFL Network a couple of weeks ago that like 65% of his throws are gone in less than 3 seconds. Granted the shotgun skews that number a little, but you don't have to have all day to throw the ball down the field.

The routes have to be more imaginative. Having one player run deep doesn't challenge the DB's. Having 2 players run deep into the same area (how many times did we see that this year) doesn't challenge the defense either. The ball needs to be thrown 10-15 yds at least on most plays. Throwing hitches and screens are ways to beat the defense for yds between the 30's but you have to get it down the field on better patterns in order to put points up.

I don't know that I saw any of our receivers do a double move at all this year. Everything is down and out, down and curl. Did we throw a post pattern at all this season? Is Royal only a viable receiver in the red zone? The guy is huge, he needs to be a target in the middle of the field.

Also, what happened to the RB screen? I can't recall us running many, if any, this year. Portis has good hands usually and can motor once in space. The Packers, Colts and Pats all use the screen as 'an extension of the running game' (I know, I hate that too) and get big plays occasionally. Hell, the Giants got at least 5-6 big plays on screens this year alone!

I don't think a complete overhaul of the playbook is neccessary, but at least update it to the late 90's!

skin4Life28 · 12-29-2004, 01:58 PM

A lot of the Colts and G-Bay's offense is about Peyton they and Favre make there players better and you see once they leave there not that good "Bill Schroeder". Those two qbs are so good they really get the dbs and safeties thinking that he cant throw that ball into that spot. O-Line is really the importance I knew G-Bay's was good but I did not know that the Colts was that goood except for J. Saturday and T. Glenn. Only time will tell with this team the talent is here we just need to execute better. I pray to the football gods that next year we can be in the playoffs making a run at a championship.

skins009 · 12-29-2004, 02:33 PM

Our line has been bad but you can't use that as an excuse not the throw the ball downfield. I'd rather have some 20 to 30 yard completions and an occasiton 5 yard loss from a sack than what we are doing right now. Our routes a pretty discouraging too. We don't do and crosing routes or deep slants. I just don't get our offense. Correct me if i'm wrong but I thought Gibbs use the throw the ball way down field.

hurrykaine · 12-29-2004, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skins009

Our line has been bad but you can't use that as an excuse not the throw the ball downfield. I'd rather have some 20 to 30 yard completions and an occasiton 5 yard loss from a sack than what we are doing right now. Our routes a pretty discouraging too. We don't do and crosing routes or deep slants. I just don't get our offense. Correct me if i'm wrong but I thought Gibbs use the throw the ball way down field.

While on that theme, I've never seen Ramsey throw a slant. Or, for that matter a fade (when we're deep in the redzone and trying to get in the endzone).

Daseal · 12-29-2004, 03:33 PM

Wouldn't a double move or creative route running also lead to many more PI or Illegal Contact penelties? Therefore moving the ball for us?

offiss · 12-29-2004, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

Wouldn't a double move or creative route running also lead to many more PI or Illegal Contact penelties? Therefore moving the ball for us?

Absolutly! I said it in a couple of post's about crossing routes, that's how Coles was used in NY, I don't see any creativity with Gibb's, team's know our pass routes by heart they all know where our reciever's are going and the routes are easy to cover, I am not a big Brunell fan even before we signed him but not even Brunell is as bad as he looked in this offense, Martz hold's his team hostage with his QB, well Gibb's hold's his QB's hostage with his offense.

Drift Reality · 12-29-2004, 03:35 PM

Well, Stokley is interesting because he has Wayne and Harrison on the outside. Basically, what you see, is Stokely mostly matched up against a nickel back or a safety in one-on-one situations, and he is a good enough route-runner (and does have good speed) to get pretty open.

Also, what you have to understand with Indy, is that they have a consistent running attack.

I think it has very little to do with the actual routes that are drawn up. There are about five-six basic routes in football, the context and personnel are what make the difference.

Redskins_P · 12-29-2004, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drift Reality

Well, Stokley is interesting because he has Wayne and Harrison on the outside. Basically, what you see, is Stokely mostly matched up against a nickel back or a safety in one-on-one situations, and he is a good enough route-runner (and does have good speed) to get pretty open.

Also, what you have to understand with Indy, is that they have a consistent running attack.

I think it has very little to do with the actual routes that are drawn up. There are about five-six basic routes in football, the context and personnel are what make the difference.

I agree Drift. Good post.

Daseal · 12-29-2004, 04:03 PM

Drift: Indy is able to open up their running attack thanks to a phenominal passing attack. If you see 8in the box to stop James, you see a pass. I feel most of the Colts success comes from Peyton. They give him 3 plays and let him call whichever one at the line of scrimmage. When it looks like they want to stop the run, he tosses it. His ability to read defenses and aubible quickly makes that offense work.

Redskins_P · 12-29-2004, 04:18 PM

Isn't Indys O-Coordinator like 70 years old?

MTK · 12-29-2004, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redskins_P

Isn't Indys O-Coordinator like 70 years old?

yeah something like that, chalk one up for the old guys

Redskins_P · 12-29-2004, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

yeah something like that, chalk one up for the old guys

yeah I guess these old guys can't adapt to todays NFL!

Beemnseven · 12-29-2004, 04:30 PM

On Monday Night Football, Al Michaels interviewed Manning about his record breaking touchdown throw to Stokely. Manning said that the play was not designed, and that in the huddle, Manning ordered Stokely to fake the post and run the deep-in pattern. They had thrown several hitches to Reggie Wayne throughout the game, and the safety bit hard when Wayne ran yet another short hitch route. That opened up Stokely leaving only the other safety who got caught heading toward the corner of the endzone thinking it was a post pattern.

Gibbs once said back in his first stint with the Skins, that he didn't like the West Coast styled slant pattern because that often exposed the wideouts to devastating hits across the middle.

Gibbs called several wide receiver screens this year, and other than the first Dallas game, rarely called for bombs to WRs on the fly. From what I saw, and I watched practically every offensive play this year, screens to the running back were virtually non-existant. There might have been one or two slant patterns, but that's about it.

Another pattern I rarely saw was basic deep-in and deep-out routes. Same for the crossing patterns too.

We also have to consider though, that these routes may well have been in the game plan, it's just that this year, our quarterbacks simply didn't complete them, or our wide receivers weren't able to get open.

12-29-2004, 01:14 PM	#1
hurrykaine Impact Rookie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Washington, D.C. Age: 52 Posts: 762	Creative route running for WRs Since this went unanswered in another forum, I thought I'd bring it up again in a new thread. Here's something that baffles me. Why doesn't Gibbs' playbook feature any creative route running (especially cross-routes) for the WRs? Brandon Stokely doesn't exactly have blazing speed, but how many times have you seen him catch TDs completely untouched, with no DBs within 10 yards of him? Surely his speed is not what's causing the separation. The separation is only attributable to creative route running, or Peyton being a shifty-eyed mofo and conning the DBs, or both. Why can't we incorporate this into our offense? Someone please enlighten us. I suppose for starters, we have to beef up the O-line so that we don't have to block with 8, and this would release an additional receiver that would contribute to more of a downfield threat.

12-29-2004, 03:35 PM	#9
Drift Reality Impact Rookie Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 506	Well, Stokley is interesting because he has Wayne and Harrison on the outside. Basically, what you see, is Stokely mostly matched up against a nickel back or a safety in one-on-one situations, and he is a good enough route-runner (and does have good speed) to get pretty open. Also, what you have to understand with Indy, is that they have a consistent running attack. I think it has very little to do with the actual routes that are drawn up. There are about five-six basic routes in football, the context and personnel are what make the difference. __________________ Drift Reality DC City Blog New Influencer

12-29-2004, 01:45 PM	#2
MTK \m/ Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 52 Posts: 99,832	You said it yourself right there at the end. Until we beef up the line so we can get consistently solid pass protection, it doesn't matter how creative your offense is.

12-29-2004, 02:07 PM	#3
Paintrain Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Age: 54 Posts: 5,006	Matty, I agree and disagree about the protection. Manning seemingly has all day to throw, but I saw something on NFL Network a couple of weeks ago that like 65% of his throws are gone in less than 3 seconds. Granted the shotgun skews that number a little, but you don't have to have all day to throw the ball down the field. The routes have to be more imaginative. Having one player run deep doesn't challenge the DB's. Having 2 players run deep into the same area (how many times did we see that this year) doesn't challenge the defense either. The ball needs to be thrown 10-15 yds at least on most plays. Throwing hitches and screens are ways to beat the defense for yds between the 30's but you have to get it down the field on better patterns in order to put points up. I don't know that I saw any of our receivers do a double move at all this year. Everything is down and out, down and curl. Did we throw a post pattern at all this season? Is Royal only a viable receiver in the red zone? The guy is huge, he needs to be a target in the middle of the field. Also, what happened to the RB screen? I can't recall us running many, if any, this year. Portis has good hands usually and can motor once in space. The Packers, Colts and Pats all use the screen as 'an extension of the running game' (I know, I hate that too) and get big plays occasionally. Hell, the *Giants* got at least 5-6 big plays on screens this year alone! I don't think a complete overhaul of the playbook is neccessary, but at least update it to the late 90's!

12-29-2004, 01:58 PM	#4
skin4Life28 Special Teams Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC Age: 38 Posts: 447	A lot of the Colts and G-Bay's offense is about Peyton they and Favre make there players better and you see once they leave there not that good "Bill Schroeder". Those two qbs are so good they really get the dbs and safeties thinking that he cant throw that ball into that spot. O-Line is really the importance I knew G-Bay's was good but I did not know that the Colts was that goood except for J. Saturday and T. Glenn. Only time will tell with this team the talent is here we just need to execute better. I pray to the football gods that next year we can be in the playoffs making a run at a championship.

12-29-2004, 02:33 PM	#5
skins009 Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 528	Our line has been bad but you can't use that as an excuse not the throw the ball downfield. I'd rather have some 20 to 30 yard completions and an occasiton 5 yard loss from a sack than what we are doing right now. Our routes a pretty discouraging too. We don't do and crosing routes or deep slants. I just don't get our offense. Correct me if i'm wrong but I thought Gibbs use the throw the ball way down field.

12-29-2004, 03:33 PM	#7
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 42 Posts: 8,341	Wouldn't a double move or creative route running also lead to many more PI or Illegal Contact penelties? Therefore moving the ball for us?

12-29-2004, 04:03 PM	#11
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 42 Posts: 8,341	Drift: Indy is able to open up their running attack thanks to a phenominal passing attack. If you see 8in the box to stop James, you see a pass. I feel most of the Colts success comes from Peyton. They give him 3 plays and let him call whichever one at the line of scrimmage. When it looks like they want to stop the run, he tosses it. His ability to read defenses and aubible quickly makes that offense work.

12-29-2004, 04:18 PM	#12
Redskins_P Fight for old DC! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Aldie, VA Age: 47 Posts: 4,101	Isn't Indys O-Coordinator like 70 years old?

12-29-2004, 04:30 PM	#15
Beemnseven Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Virginia Beach Age: 51 Posts: 5,311	On Monday Night Football, Al Michaels interviewed Manning about his record breaking touchdown throw to Stokely. Manning said that the play was not designed, and that in the huddle, Manning ordered Stokely to fake the post and run the deep-in pattern. They had thrown several hitches to Reggie Wayne throughout the game, and the safety bit hard when Wayne ran yet another short hitch route. That opened up Stokely leaving only the other safety who got caught heading toward the corner of the endzone thinking it was a post pattern. Gibbs once said back in his first stint with the Skins, that he didn't like the West Coast styled slant pattern because that often exposed the wideouts to devastating hits across the middle. Gibbs called several wide receiver screens this year, and other than the first Dallas game, rarely called for bombs to WRs on the fly. From what I saw, and I watched practically every offensive play this year, screens to the running back were virtually non-existant. There might have been one or two slant patterns, but that's about it. Another pattern I rarely saw was basic deep-in and deep-out routes. Same for the crossing patterns too. We also have to consider though, that these routes may well have been in the game plan, it's just that this year, our quarterbacks simply didn't complete them, or our wide receivers weren't able to get open.

Creative route running for WRs

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