What's wrong with the passing game? (Non-JC edition)

[Paintrain]

Our passing game has become non existent, stagnant, pedestrian, worthless, whatever other adjectives you want to use, but bottom line, it's considerably less potent than it was earlier this season.

There are plenty of threads (foolishly IMO) bashing Campbell as the cause of the problem but as he showed earlier this year, when the other parts of the passing game are performing correctly he is as efficient and effective as the top tier QB in the league.

Offensive line-No brainer here. He's got to get better protection and from Rabach and Jansen. Jansen is garbage, he's been bad for 3 seasons now but still is trotted out there. Rabach is decent but when facing elite defenses he really gets exposed. While this is an area that will need attention this offseason, it's not like the whole thing needs to be blown up. Reinhart got good reviews in the preseason and hopefully will develop into a replacement for Kendall and FA offensive linemen can be acquired almost every offseason.

Scheme-Zorn can do 3 things to improve the passing game immediately.

1. Take more shots down the field. As Moss said a couple of weeks ago, if you only give me one chance to make a play I can't be as effective. We saw one pass travel more than 40 yards yesterday, none against Seattle, one against Dallas, one against Pittsburgh. 4 things can happen on a deep ball, catch, penalty, incompletion, interception. Only one of them really hurts you. I'd rather have an incompletion 40 yards down field than on a slant. If teams know you will try them deep, they will defend it.
2. Get Campbell in the shotgun. He said he's more comfortable there, he sees the field better, he can get the ball out quicker and he's more efficient from the shotgun. Zorn doesn't like it as much because it limits his play calls. Play to the strength of your players. Let them do what they do best.
3. Move the pocket. It's really easy to tee off on a QB when you know where he's going to be. Moving the pocket on a controlled rollout may give the additional 2-3 seconds needed for a WR to clear a zone or break free from a corner.

WR Another no brainer, but this can slowly improve over the rest of the season. Certain things are obvious to us as fans. We have a #1 WR in Moss and a 2A receiver in Cooley. We don't have a #2 WR. That's presumably what role Kelly was drafted to fill and now that he's healthy and involved he can start to develop in that role. Randle-El is at best a #3 WR. He doesn't have the speed to get deep or the size to be a possession WR but he is very adept in a Welker role of finding holes, getting 7-12 yards and moving the chains. It's very easy for a good defense to eliminate 2 passing threats and that's what we've seen the past 4 weeks. Cooley and Moss have been non factors most weeks because teams can focus on them. Once Kelly or Thomas can make teams respect them, we will see more production overall.

The other key is making plays when the opportunity is there. Moss, Thrash, Kelly, Thomas and Randle El have all had HUGE drops in the past 4 games that could have made a difference. When you have limited opportunities you have to take advantage without fail.

[bigm29]

Are you sure Santana Moss is a number 1 reciever anymore? He was in 2005 but has not been the same since. Hes clearly not getting open, otherwise campbell would hit him. Larry Fitzgerald is a number 1 reciever. Andre Johnson is a number 1 reciever. Randy Moss is a 1 reciever. I dont think Santana Moss can be used in the same sentence with those guys. Hopefully either kelly and thomas develop into a starter so we can move randel el back to 3.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by bigm29

Are you sure Santana Moss is a number 1 reciever anymore? He was in 2005 but has not been the same since. Hes clearly not getting open, otherwise campbell would hit him. Larry Fitzgerald is a number 1 reciever. Andre Johnson is a number 1 reciever. Randy Moss is a 1 reciever. I dont think Santana Moss can be used in the same sentence with those guys. Hopefully either kelly and thomas develop into a starter so we can move randel el back to 3.

Did Santana Moss dropoff in talent and ability from the first 5 games of this season when he was clearly a #1 WR? He was top 5 in catches and yards earlier in the year. He's a #1, but like all of them, he needs some help. I wouldn't say he is the same as a Randy Moss, Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald because they are different types of WR. If the definition of a #1 WR is a receiver who is your primary passing threat that defenses must account for whenever he is on the field, then yes, he's a #1.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Did Santana Moss dropoff in talent and ability from the first 5 games of this season when he was clearly a #1 WR? He was top 5 in catches and yards earlier in the year. He's a #1, but like all of them, he needs some help. I wouldn't say he is the same as a Randy Moss, Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald because they are different types of WR. If the definition of a #1 WR is a receiver who is your primary passing threat that defenses must account for whenever he is on the field, then yes, he's a #1.

The problem isn't that Santana can't dominate games like he did at the beginning of the season. As I've said in other threads, you can't really rely on Moss for a few reasons: health, hands, and other inconsistencies in route running.

I believe that the offense should have a bunch of plays designed to get Santana in space because he is still very dangerous, and our top big threat weapon. I'm just starting to realize that too much of what we do runs through Moss, and it comes back to bite us far too often.

I think this team will be best if Malcolm Kelly and Antwaan Randle El are able to start and produce at the receivers next year, and then Moss comes off the bench when Sellers comes out of the game in order to give the passing game another dimension of speed. We should still use the screens, play action passes, deep ins, and corners with him, but I just don't feel like he's an every down player...which I think Randle El is.

But the reason we have to do so much through him is symptomatic of the bigger problem: that neither Kelly nor Thomas is ready to have the passing offense run through them. Cooley could be this guy, with Fred Davis at TE, but I'm not sure how valuable Cooley would be running skinny posts from a split end formation and stuff.

So this is a big problem, and obviously upgrades are needed on the right side of the OL, and especially at C. But that's pretty much the whole deal with the offense, IMO.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Our passing game has become non existent, stagnant, pedestrian, worthless, whatever other adjectives you want to use, but bottom line, it's considerably less potent than it was earlier this season.

There are plenty of threads (foolishly IMO) bashing Campbell as the cause of the problem but as he showed earlier this year, when the other parts of the passing game are performing correctly he is as efficient and effective as the top tier QB in the league.

Offensive line-No brainer here. He's got to get better protection and from Rabach and Jansen. Jansen is garbage, he's been bad for 3 seasons now but still is trotted out there. Rabach is decent but when facing elite defenses he really gets exposed. While this is an area that will need attention this offseason, it's not like the whole thing needs to be blown up. Reinhart got good reviews in the preseason and hopefully will develop into a replacement for Kendall and FA offensive linemen can be acquired almost every offseason.

Scheme-Zorn can do 3 things to improve the passing game immediately.

1. Take more shots down the field. As Moss said a couple of weeks ago, if you only give me one chance to make a play I can't be as effective. We saw one pass travel more than 40 yards yesterday, none against Seattle, one against Dallas, one against Pittsburgh. 4 things can happen on a deep ball, catch, penalty, incompletion, interception. Only one of them really hurts you. I'd rather have an incompletion 40 yards down field than on a slant. If teams know you will try them deep, they will defend it.
2. Get Campbell in the shotgun. He said he's more comfortable there, he sees the field better, he can get the ball out quicker and he's more efficient from the shotgun. Zorn doesn't like it as much because it limits his play calls. Play to the strength of your players. Let them do what they do best.
3. Move the pocket. It's really easy to tee off on a QB when you know where he's going to be. Moving the pocket on a controlled rollout may give the additional 2-3 seconds needed for a WR to clear a zone or break free from a corner.

WR Another no brainer, but this can slowly improve over the rest of the season. Certain things are obvious to us as fans. We have a #1 WR in Moss and a 2A receiver in Cooley. We don't have a #2 WR. That's presumably what role Kelly was drafted to fill and now that he's healthy and involved he can start to develop in that role. Randle-El is at best a #3 WR. He doesn't have the speed to get deep or the size to be a possession WR but he is very adept in a Welker role of finding holes, getting 7-12 yards and moving the chains. It's very easy for a good defense to eliminate 2 passing threats and that's what we've seen the past 4 weeks. Cooley and Moss have been non factors most weeks because teams can focus on them. Once Kelly or Thomas can make teams respect them, we will see more production overall.

The other key is making plays when the opportunity is there. Moss, Thrash, Kelly, Thomas and Randle El have all had HUGE drops in the past 4 games that could have made a difference. When you have limited opportunities you have to take advantage without fail.

WRONG!

[Redskin Warrior]

Our opponents are taking Santana away from us point blank. It's rare that you don't see him double or triple covered. Santana is not a big receiver so he can't bully himself around to get open like T.O., Randy Moss & others. He is a 5'9 crisp route runner, speedster when they are double covered it's not much they can do. See Steve Smith in the 2006 playoff game against Chicago he stayed covered he couldn't catch a thing.

[bigm29]

Originally Posted by Redskin Warrior

Our opponents are taking Santana away from us point blank. It's rare that you don't see him double or triple covered. Santana is not a big receiver so he can't bully himself around to get open like T.O., Randy Moss & others. He is a 5'9 crisp route runner, speedster when they are double covered it's not much they can do. See Steve Smith in the 2006 playoff game against Chicago he stayed covered he couldn't catch a thing.

So basically your saying that Santana needs a better #1 reciever to take coverage off him and therefore making him a #2?

[MTK]

Look no further than the OL. If you can't protect the QB you can't win.

[skinsfan69]

I think if you put Santana Moss on a better offense he'd have better numbers. He's a good NFL wr playing on a bad offense. But he's not in the same class as elite NFL wr's.

[Redskin Warrior]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I think if you put Santana Moss on a better offense he'd have better numbers. He's a good NFL wr playing on a bad offense. But he's not in the same class as elite NFL wr's.

100% agree with you on that!!! Replace Wes Welker with Santana Moss he would have a record setting season.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Redskin Warrior

100% agree with you on that!!! Replace Wes Welker with Santana Moss he would have a record setting season.

Well I will disagree with you on Welker. Welker is one tough dude and excels at running routes over the middle. I don't think Santana would last a whole season if you put him in Welker's role in NE's offense. He can't take that kind of pounding. But he'd do just fine as a #3 behind Moss and Welker working in the 15 - 25 yard range and cathcing the occasional wr screen.

[MTK]

All this crapping on Moss and yet he's still on pace for 1100+ yards this year. Imagine where his numbers would be in a better offense.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

All this crapping on Moss and yet he's still on pace for 1100+ yards this year. Imagine where his numbers would be in a better offense.

Just because he's the only one JC looks for does not mean he's a #1 WR. I see him as an extremely high #2 or extremely low #1. Yes he's getting the numbers cause JC won't go anywhere else but him and Cooley. Everyone else is a blocking dummy. This is what I wrote elswhere on here....

Re: What's Wrong with the Redskins?
I'm sorry....I can't bear to read all the complaints. Mine will be exactly the same. What ticks me off more is that Atlanta has a better passing game with lesser talent and new QB. How can that be? Miami (with new coach and offense) was even looking better then us scoring more points per game. How can that be? Hell the Rams a horrible as they have seemed have scored more in some of their games then we have all year. How can that be?

Atlanta really ticks me though. According to Zorn this is a pass happy scoring offense. Where is it? am I missing something?

Things we need:
1. A younger O-Line.
2. A younger (healthy) D-Line.
3. A QB.
4. More younger WR's.
5. A punter.
6. A field goal kicker.

I know I seem like a negative nanny. Ok slam me. I mentioned QB...why cause JC is that home grown corn bred fed country boy that everyone has working for them and is slower then molassas. You guys know what I mean. If your in the military you have thought ..."that boy will be the first to go cause he just has no get up and go."
Be honest with your self. Look at the "great QB's" in this league. They have a sense of urgency when they are down in the fourth quarter. Hands flying, arms waving, no huddle, running up to the line, barking plays. This is not JC. Yes he manages well. Yes he's a calm, cool cat, but not a great QB and probably never will be.

Simple fact...we need a decent punter and field goal kicker. Almost everyone agrees.

I mentioned #4. More younger WR's cause our guys we have now are late 20's early 30's older then dirt. It's either their to old to get seperation or the WR coach sucks in teaching how to get seperation. I'm not fond of Stan Hixon. What 4-5 years and he has not taught a WR to run a decent route? He may have been a guru in college but it's not transfering.

No one will argue we need younger linemen on both sides of the ball. On Offense Gibbs always liked the older wiser linemen who don't make mistakes. Guess what ...they are making mistakes. Time to get younger and faster. On Defense we have no push up the middle to callapse the pockets and the only salvagable DE we have is Carter. They need to start throwing all the young guys in to see who will stay next year or not.

I know the Giants were an expected loss by lots of us including me, but it would have been nice to see us put up a fight. One touch down. One. This is not a scoring machine offense Zorn said he was bringing. I know there were a lot of dropped balls but watching the game there were a lot of dirt balls, and balls thrown to high, balls thrown to hard at times. and I can't help but look at how Atlanta does and cry wondering how on earth another team who has a new coaching staff, new system, and new QB is able to score so many points and stay in games? We couldn't fight our way out of wet paper bag. We might get lucky and get a field goal. lol.

I know I sound like the sky is falling type. I'm not. I know it takes 3 yrs to learn a new system. I don't care how you spin it or what excuses people can dream up but this team will not go far in the play offs. Everyone needs to be honest with themselves right now and see we can't score more then 20 points on our best day we are not going far. Our defense is carrying us keeping us in games but the offense has to step up and score points and not field goals.

All season I kept thinking....Zorn has something for the second half of the year. He's holding something back. He's not showing all his cards. He's got something for the Giants and the rest of this division the second time we play them. He's dreaming something up. and you know what....he doesn't. We have no special weapon. We have 4 games left and if we were going to use it or them they or it would have shown up some where around week 8 halfway through the season. We have nothing.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Just because he's the only one JC looks for does not mean he's a #1 WR. I see him as an extremely high #2 or extremely low #1. Yes he's getting the numbers cause JC won't go anywhere else but him and Cooley. Everyone else is a blocking dummy. This is what I wrote elswhere on here....

Re: What's Wrong with the Redskins?
I'm sorry....I can't bear to read all the complaints. Mine will be exactly the same. What ticks me off more is that Atlanta has a better passing game with lesser talent and new QB. How can that be? Miami (with new coach and offense) was even looking better then us scoring more points per game. How can that be? Hell the Rams a horrible as they have seemed have scored more in some of their games then we have all year. How can that be?

Atlanta really ticks me though. According to Zorn this is a pass happy scoring offense. Where is it? am I missing something?

Things we need:
1. A younger O-Line.
2. A younger (healthy) D-Line.
3. A QB.
4. More younger WR's.
5. A punter.
6. A field goal kicker.

I know I seem like a negative nanny. Ok slam me. I mentioned QB...why cause JC is that home grown corn bred fed country boy that everyone has working for them and is slower then molassas. You guys know what I mean. If your in the military you have thought ..."that boy will be the first to go cause he just has no get up and go."
Be honest with your self. Look at the "great QB's" in this league. They have a sense of urgency when they are down in the fourth quarter. Hands flying, arms waving, no huddle, running up to the line, barking plays. This is not JC. Yes he manages well. Yes he's a calm, cool cat, but not a great QB and probably never will be.

Simple fact...we need a decent punter and field goal kicker. Almost everyone agrees.

I mentioned #4. More younger WR's cause our guys we have now are late 20's early 30's older then dirt. It's either their to old to get seperation or the WR coach sucks in teaching how to get seperation. I'm not fond of Stan Hixon. What 4-5 years and he has not taught a WR to run a decent route? He may have been a guru in college but it's not transfering.

No one will argue we need younger linemen on both sides of the ball. On Offense Gibbs always liked the older wiser linemen who don't make mistakes. Guess what ...they are making mistakes. Time to get younger and faster. On Defense we have no push up the middle to callapse the pockets and the only salvagable DE we have is Carter. They need to start throwing all the young guys in to see who will stay next year or not.

I know the Giants were an expected loss by lots of us including me, but it would have been nice to see us put up a fight. One touch down. One. This is not a scoring machine offense Zorn said he was bringing. I know there were a lot of dropped balls but watching the game there were a lot of dirt balls, and balls thrown to high, balls thrown to hard at times. and I can't help but look at how Atlanta does and cry wondering how on earth another team who has a new coaching staff, new system, and new QB is able to score so many points and stay in games? We couldn't fight our way out of wet paper bag. We might get lucky and get a field goal. lol.

I know I sound like the sky is falling type. I'm not. I know it takes 3 yrs to learn a new system. I don't care how you spin it or what excuses people can dream up but this team will not go far in the play offs. Everyone needs to be honest with themselves right now and see we can't score more then 20 points on our best day we are not going far. Our defense is carrying us keeping us in games but the offense has to step up and score points and not field goals.

All season I kept thinking....Zorn has something for the second half of the year. He's holding something back. He's not showing all his cards. He's got something for the Giants and the rest of this division the second time we play them. He's dreaming something up. and you know what....he doesn't. We have no special weapon. We have 4 games left and if we were going to use it or them they or it would have shown up some where around week 8 halfway through the season. We have nothing.

Half way into last season this what they were saying about Eli and the giants. So maybe there is hope.

[bigm29]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

All this crapping on Moss and yet he's still on pace for 1100+ yards this year. Imagine where his numbers would be in a better offense.

I dont care how many yards he gets. If he would score some points then maybe the crapping would stop.