the new health care?

[dmek25]

Industry reps offer $2 trillion in health savings
i don't know about you guys, but this scares the shit out of me. that these companies are this eager to get that bill passed

[CRedskinsRule]

The upfront tab for the federal government from Obama's proposed expansion of health coverage will be due right away while the savings he expects from wringing waste and inefficiency from the health care system will take longer to show up.

I know it has been said many times, and many ways, but since when have we relied on the government to decrease inefficiencies?

[saden1]

One time this weed dealer told me the first bag of weed is 70% off.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I know it has been said many times, and many ways, but since when have we relied on the government to decrease inefficiencies?

In the 1930's and 40's. It was called Fascism and National Socialism, Mr. Mussolini made the trains run on time.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

In the 1930's and 40's. It was called Fascism and National Socialism, Mr. Mussolini made the trains run on time.

And Wilson promised a Chicken in every pot or something like that, but in both cases the economic and social prices seem awfully high. (and just because something runs on time doesn't mean its doing it efficiently. I am not saying his wasn't efficient, just pointing out a faulty analogy on your part )

[saden1]

Democracy is a beautiful thing. Go get people to vote for your preferred policy and you too can enjoy whatever form of government you want. It's a shame the jazz in some people's mouth is still so worm they have to resort to using cliché and buzz words like fascism and socialism. Terrible shame.

I hear Somalia is great this time of the year. Don't forget to get a tan, we don't want you to standout.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

Democracy is a beautiful thing. Go get people to vote for your preferred policy and you too can enjoy whatever form of government you want. It's a shame the jazz in some people's mouth is still so worm they have to resort to using cliché and buzz words like fascism and socialism. Terrible shame.

I hear Somalia is great this time of the year. Don't forget to get a tan, we don't want you to standout.

I'm with you that all "ism" words get thrown around so much they loose their meaning.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

Democracy is a beautiful thing. Go get people to vote for your preferred policy and you too can enjoy whatever form of government you want. It's a shame the jazz in some people's mouth is still so worm they have to resort to using cliché and buzz words like fascism and socialism. Terrible shame.

I hear Somalia is great this time of the year. Don't forget to get a tan, we don't want you to standout.

Can't access the imbedded photo or video at work and don't particularly care. Democracy is a beautiful thing. When have I advocated differently? See my post above for the point I was making. Before implying people are cocksucker's, maybe you might want try be sure you understand their point.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by saden1

Democracy is a beautiful thing. Go get people to vote for your preferred policy and you too can enjoy whatever form of government you want. It's a shame the jazz in some people's mouth is still so worm they have to resort to using cliché and buzz words like fascism and socialism. Terrible shame.

I hear Somalia is great this time of the year. Don't forget to get a tan, we don't want you to standout.

Our government structure is, imo, the best style going.(although still evil Joe) - pure democracy is not a beautiful thing, and I would be surprised Saden, if you felt it was. There always needs to be some check on the simple majority, because otherwise the minority gets trampled. I was damn close to going to Somalia under Clinton and I didn't want to then and don't now. No government is called Anarchy, not Libertarian. Very poor post for you Saden, not very reflective, and relatively inaccurate departure from your norm.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by saden1

Democracy is a beautiful thing. Go get people to vote for your preferred policy and you too can enjoy whatever form of government you want. It's a shame the jazz in some people's mouth is still so worm they have to resort to using cliché and buzz words like fascism and socialism. Terrible shame.

I hear Somalia is great this time of the year. Don't forget to get a tan, we don't want you to standout.

That's why we have (had) a Republic and not a Democracy. The people will vote for any damn thing they feel like unless there are laws to stop them. Democracy is nothing more than Mob Rule. Just because voters have the mine to say, vote for free housing or a free Hummer with gold platted rims, doesn't mean it's lawful.
I'm sick right now but I don't expect anyone to take care of me. Why should I pay more money to pay for someone else's health? How is it that liberals want to seperate Christianity from government but still expect non-Christians like myself to be my "so-called" brother's keeper?
You forgot to include Progressivism in your list. It's not much of a "change" either, just see how Woodrow Wilson wanted to make the world safe for Democracy by going to war with countries that never attacked us. Does that sound familiar? Your lovely Progressive movement gave us the Federal Reserve. Now we get to have free health care just like they have in England and Cuba. Thanks :vomit:

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by dmek25

Industry reps offer $2 trillion in health savings
i don't know about you guys, but this scares the shit out of me. that these companies are this eager to get that bill passed

Not sure why it would scare the sh%^ out of you if corporations are looking to reduce cost? I personally think if the goverment can get the health industry to start looking for each and every way to reduce cost that is the best way to start. I do know that if goverment try's to take over health ins. it will only get worse and more expensive.

[dmek25]

saden, you know the word change is equal to the word fear in alot of peoples minds. the thing that worries me is that these money making machines are so anxious to get this bill passed, even before congress actually even sees it. there must be a whole lot of incentives( $) in it for them. and in turn, this usually means the average Joe's, like me and you, are getting screwed. don't get me wrong, im for universal health care. but i would like to see it done right

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by dmek25

saden, you know the word change is equal to the word fear in alot of peoples minds. the thing that worries me is that these money making machines are so anxious to get this bill passed, even before congress actually even sees it. there must be a whole lot of incentives( $) in it for them. and in turn, this usually means the average Joe's, like me and you, are getting screwed. don't get me wrong, im for universal health care. but i would like to see it done right

I don't think fear is the issue. There are plenty of examples of national health care, and while it offers some benefits for the mob, more efficiency is not one of them, which was the only statement I was making originally. As for the rest of this thread ... whatever.

[JoeRedskin]

Wow. Let's all just miss the point.

Democratic governments, by nature are less efficient b/c they are concerned with fairness. National Socialism, Facism and other autocratic/authoritarian forms of government are more likely to be "efficient" b/c they need not worry about being re-elected.

The original comment was something like "when have we relied on governments reducing inefficiency". I only used the fascist/national socialism example b/c of the infamous quote about Mussolini and the trains. To me, it summed up the inevitable price we pay for living in a democracy.

Obviously, their are exceptions, but, in general, and b/c we value fairness, any time we devise a system to determine how benefits should be divided, built into that system will be ways to challenge and test the fairness of the govt's actions. An authoritarian form of govt. (such as Nazism or Fascism) is not bound by these strictures and simply says "You get X, if you don't like it tough sh**."

That was my only point.

[saden1]

LOL...Hope you can afford your medical bills, we don't have universal healthcare yet.

Representative Democracy:

"the United States relies on representative democracy, but [its] system of government is much more complex than that. [It is] not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered by minority rights protected by law."

Ron Paul lost. I'm so sorry for your loss.