Here Goes Nothing ...

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

I think we'd be the united states of germany in the 1940's with this kind of thinking.

I think the point your trying to get at is that we shouldn't be the world police anymore. That's too much of a burden, takes too many resources, and quite frankly isn't working.

I was just having a couple of drinks with my good friend who just got back from a year long tour in the worst part of Iraq, and believe me, he feels the same. He see's alot of hope for the people, but is really fed up with alot of the political reasons given for the start of the war now.

He was telling me that he thinks we need to finish this war, hand the nation of Iraq a feasable nation back, and then stay out of the middle east.

It's really a mess out there and wasn't worth it. At this point though, we need to set up Iraq's economy and then leave, thats the most important thing.

Self-Appointed World Police would be more correct.

As far as Germany goes, certainly the argument could be made that our involvement in WWII was necessary since Germany took the time to declare war on us first. Not only that, German U-boats wrecked havoc on U.S.-British shipping lanes in the North Atlantic prior to our intervention in Europe.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

I have a question for anyone to answer:

So a lot of people think it is almost comical that the Bush administration has failed to recognize that Iraq is in the midst of a full-blown civil war. I certainly agree that Iraq is in a full-blown civil war (albeit one international actors on both sides). Iraq's civil war consists of ethnic cleansing on highest scale - Shia killing Sunni, Sunni killing Shia, neighborhoods being "cleansed," etc. However, isn't this the same kind of civil war that many wanted us to get involved in in Rwanda, Bosnia, and Kosovo? If so, what accounts for saying that we should get out of Iraq because they are in a civil war and saying that we should get involved in those other places?

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Again, I don't have anything to add besides a comment. I think it's a lot on the insane side that people can be convinced to kill their countrymen over the slight difference between Shia and Sunni. That's like Methodists fighting Baptists. While one might argue that even a minute difference in a religion is HUGE to each side, it's still a LOT of crazy and not worth killing over.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

Again, I don't have anything to add besides a comment. I think it's a lot on the insane side that people can be convinced to kill their countrymen over the slight difference between Shia and Sunni. That's like Methodists fighting Baptists. While one might argue that even a minute difference in a religion is HUGE to each side, it's still a LOT of crazy and not worth killing over.

Seriously. What is even sadder is that we watch music videos here, in Iraq videos of beheadings, attacks on Iraqi Police and U.S. forces, and other generally sadistic sh-t are extremely marketable. When you're country is getting its rocks off on beheadings, you know you're headed straight down the toilet. If you have ever seen one of those videos, you will think very differently about what kind of enemy we are facing and how far we have to go to turn the place into a stable democracy.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

Again, I don't have anything to add besides a comment. I think it's a lot on the insane side that people can be convinced to kill their countrymen over the slight difference between Shia and Sunni. That's like Methodists fighting Baptists. While one might argue that even a minute difference in a religion is HUGE to each side, it's still a LOT of crazy and not worth killing over.

tell that to the people of ireland :/.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Oh, I've seen one. One of my buddies is extremely traumatized from being over there and came to my house one day showing me that shit. I almost puked from one of them.

There is NO regard for human life.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by That Guy

tell that to the people of ireland :/.

That was the one I was thinking of as a possible exception. STILL though, that can be said for a lot of religions in the past. Catholics and Protestants have largely different beliefs when you look at sub groups.

Shia and Sunni are subgroups of Islam, and yet those minute differences are enough to feel justified in blowing up yourself, innocents and more.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

Oh, I've seen one. One of my buddies is extremely traumatized from being over there and came to my house one day showing me that shit. I almost puked from one of them.

There is NO regard for human life.

Yup. I made the mistake of watching ONE video and I will never watch another. I also had the misfortune of reading the NYT article about how the citizens of Fallujah burned some U.S. contractors and hung their bodies from strings on a bridge. Those people (obviously the insurgents and some of their sympathizers and not all Iraqis) have SERIOUS issues that will never be resolved.

I used to laugh at my girlfriend's brother when he referred to terrorist-types as "barbarians." He sounded like a 5 year old by using such a word to actually describe people. Let's just say that I'm not laughing anymore.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Yeah, I saw that on TV. It also showed children stomping the bodies and spitting on them.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I have a question for anyone to answer:

So a lot of people think it is almost comical that the Bush administration has failed to recognize that Iraq is in the midst of a full-blown civil war. I certainly agree that Iraq is in a full-blown civil war (albeit one international actors on both sides). Iraq's civil war consists of ethnic cleansing on highest scale - Shia killing Sunni, Sunni killing Shia, neighborhoods being "cleansed," etc. However, isn't this the same kind of civil war that many wanted us to get involved in in Rwanda, Bosnia, and Kosovo? If so, what accounts for saying that we should get out of Iraq because they are in a civil war and saying that we should get involved in those other places?

i think the one major difference between Iraq and kosovo is that the united states pretty much created the mess that Iraq is right now. it was almost like stepping on a bees nest. we really stirred all the nuts up. i know one thing, there sure is alot more hatred in the world against the united states since we invaded Iraq

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

Yeah, I saw that on TV. It also showed children stomping the bodies and spitting on them.

Didn't see that, I just read the article in the NYT. The only video I saw was of people dragging the bodies of U.S. troops through the streets, little kids holding AK-47s cheering and yelling "Allah Akbar" (God is great), the Iraqis cutting off the soldiers' heads while again yelling "Allah Akbar," and proceeding to flay open the chests of the soldiers. Needless to say, I never watched another video.

I didn't even want to go near the videos of the insurgents cutting off the heads of various contractors, journalists, and aid workers. I did, however, watch some video clips from Al Jazeera showing some "scholars intelligently discussing" whether it was right or wrong to kill such non-combatants. As you might expect, the consensus was (a) it was sad, but okay because these people were part of an occupying force, and (b) America is bad and the root of all evil.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i think the one major differece between iraq and kosovo is that the united states pretty much created the mess that iraq is right now. it was almost like stepping on a bees nest. we really stirred all the nuts up. i know one thing, there sure is alot more hatred in the world against the united states since we invaded iraq

We certainly screwed up in Iraq, but that doesn't really answer the question about what to do in the future. The problems in Kosovo etc. and Iraq and very similar but, for unknown reasons, people think that we should address such problems by intervening in the former cases and withdrawing in the latter cases.

[724Skinsfan]

There are still people in this country who can remember a time when certain regions of this country had fellow countrymen killing fellow countrymen all because the pigmentation of their skin was darker. Even today you'll find trace elements of groups who still think this barbarically.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

There are still people in this country who can remember a time when certain regions of this country had fellow countrymen killing fellow countrymen all because the pigmentation of their skin was darker. Even today you'll find trace elements of groups who still think this barbarically.

But the difference is that here, when a guy (e.g., Byrd) is dragged behind a truck because of the color of his skin, the country gasps. In Iraq, videos of beheadings and torture are top-selling hits.

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

But the difference is that here, when a guy (e.g., Byrd) is dragged behind a truck because of the color of his skin, the country gasps. In Iraq, videos of beheadings and torture are top-selling hits.

Yeah, I know. Good thing the Internet wasn't around 50+ years ago.