Jason Whitlock column on Taylor

[SouperMeister]

Originally Posted by pg86

One more thing damnit.


IF music can talk to you and it glorifies so much murder (BTW I listen to rock not rap)

Why not blame it when and if they do catch the person that did this. Then you can go and dig up Tupac or Biggie, or whoever it is that is alive today saying shoot this die fucker die and charge them with murder?

Im sorry but when I hear crap like that I scream get real and Bullshit!.

Ok I'll admit I listen to alot of emo...so if some kid cut his wrists because Hawthorne Heights said cut my writs and black my eyes, can we blame them for his self destructive behavior? Think about it if you still don't get where Im getting at here Im saying we can't blame a musical artist or a genre of music for peoples Deaths. Humanity is simply that cruel and they seek to hurt one another!

But we also can't ignore the violence that is routinely glorified by the hip hop culture. It is not the only reason for black on black violence, but it is a factor. Just as surely as violent images coming out of Hollywood and video games are factors for violence in general. The biggest factor may be the openly available supply of guns in this country. What disgusts me most is that the frequent murders that we see on the evening news have almost been accepted as routine. There is a serious lack of social outrage, and the "don't snitch" mentality certainly doesn't help.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

No but it has since glorified it. It promotes the types of behavior that have shaped a culture of violence and crime. I fail to see how so many people are blind to this. Whether one likes hip-hop for its musical value or not it is ludicrcous to me that they can't see this.

And to argue that the problem is solely based in economics is to ignore evidence to the contrary. I doubt you'll find anyone who would argue the the problem BEGAN as a socioeconomic imbalance. And most would surely agree that the socioeconomic disparities remain a strong force. But the culture of violence and crime is driven by many factors. One of which is the reality that in the black community hip-hop glorifies it. Maybe hip-hop was born out of this "struggle" and simply reflects what has grown naturally but it has become a driving force in promoting the longevity of this negative culture and something needs to be done about that.

There's no doubt that a lot of Hiphop music glorifies the worst criminal aspects of contemporary urban life (obviously not all Hiphop, or even most of it, I would argue) but I disagree that it's a driving force, however you are defining that. America is a violent media culture, from our thirst for action movies and realistic first person shooters to torture-porn movies like Saw, to single out Hiphop is absurd. As Jay Z so eloquently says on his new album, "Scarface the movie did more than Scarface the rapper to me/ Still that ain't to blame for half the shit that's happened to me."

By the way, violent crime has actually declined in urban communities over the last 10 years (in spite of increased media coverage). Commensurate with the continued commercial rise of Hiphop. So again, I just am not convinced that negative Hiphop is a driving force in crime.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

Sorry if anyone shares this guy's viewpoint, but it is ridiculous to use this to compare hip hop to the KKK. And to call KKK the parent organization to the Black KKK, which he uses as a name for hip hop, is offensive.

What the hell is going on? Is Sean Taylor's death, an excuse for self-righteous journalists to state their social opinions on varying subjects? These articles seem to be more about social commentary and less about Sean Taylor.

I think that sparking social commentary, especially that involving issues that are generally swept under the rug, is a fantastic monument to Sean's life.

[memphisskin]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

I think that sparking social commentary, especially that involving issues that are generally swept under the rug, is a fantastic monument to Sean's life.

I agree. As a fan I want the focus to be on Sean Taylor, but the fact is that this did not occur in a vacuum. Think about it, today's generation is more familiar with Jay-Z than Jesse Jackson, more well versed in the words of Mystikal than Martin Luther King, why? Why is the smart guy ostracized and the drug dealer idolized? This phenomena is not limited to the black community, but like with most things it is totally exaggerated in the black community.

I have sometimes thought Jason Whitlock was crazy, but this article seemed to be spot on to me. I'm 36, so I grew up listening to Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five, came of age on Rakim, made aware by Public Enemy and danced and rapped along with NWA. But what rappers can't do is pretend that they don't have influence, that what they do doesn't influence a whole generation of youth who look up to them. Music is the soundtrack of our lives, and to think that soundtrack doesn't influence our everyday mood is not realistic.

The Black KKK, I didn't take that to be hip hop, but rather a reference to the Black on Black crime that has become rampant in America, and without uproar there is acceptance.

[BrudLee]

I wanted to post this without commentary to hear what the forum thinks before I cluttered it with my own thoughts.

Clearly, a very powerful piece. As sportscurmudgeon said, this is indicative of a stance that Whitlock has taken in the past, but never before has he had such a visceral example.

I agree with memphisskin and others that his belief is less of an indictment of hip-hop than it is an indictment of a culture for which some hip-hop music is only a symptom. The number of black Americans killed in gun violence each year is staggering, yet few consider that this violence is systemic. Whether hip-hop is a reflection of this culture or vice-versa, there must be change.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

I think that's where I find fault in the article. He lists a lot things wrong with a big part of our society. But where does he list any solutions and ways to deal with all of this? Like the old saying goes - if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Actually he does offer a broad solution - black people should resist blaming others & be proacitve to care for their own.

[Twilbert07]

Wow, very strong and interesting column indeed. He has guts to put that opinion out there. Thanks for posting it, Brud.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by memphisskin

I agree. As a fan I want the focus to be on Sean Taylor, but the fact is that this did not occur in a vacuum. Think about it, today's generation is more familiar with Jay-Z than Jesse Jackson, more well versed in the words of Mystikal than Martin Luther King, why? Why is the smart guy ostracized and the drug dealer idolized? This phenomena is not limited to the black community, but like with most things it is totally exaggerated in the black community.

I have sometimes thought Jason Whitlock was crazy, but this article seemed to be spot on to me. I'm 36, so I grew up listening to Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five, came of age on Rakim, made aware by Public Enemy and danced and rapped along with NWA. But what rappers can't do is pretend that they don't have influence, that what they do doesn't influence a whole generation of youth who look up to them. Music is the soundtrack of our lives, and to think that soundtrack doesn't influence our everyday mood is not realistic.

The Black KKK, I didn't take that to be hip hop, but rather a reference to the Black on Black crime that has become rampant in America, and without uproar there is acceptance.

I'm a white guy so please accept the following question is intended without malice: What is it with that segment of the black community that idealizes the thug lifestyle? (I know that there are segments of all races that idolize it but you know what I mean) I just don't get it. What's the appeal? I've had friends/coworkers who just absolutely let every opportunity to improve themselves pass by because that would be "selling out." For the life of me I dont' get it. It's disgusting to me but I can only imagine it must be truly exhasperating to be black and to see this from your own people in such large quantities. How do you protect your kids from these view points? If these questions/views offend anyone, I apologize, they're honestly just questions, not indictments of anyone's background.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by memphisskin

I agree. As a fan I want the focus to be on Sean Taylor, but the fact is that this did not occur in a vacuum. Think about it, today's generation is more familiar with Jay-Z than Jesse Jackson, more well versed in the words of Mystikal than Martin Luther King, why? Why is the smart guy ostracized and the drug dealer idolized? This phenomena is not limited to the black community, but like with most things it is totally exaggerated in the black community.

I have sometimes thought Jason Whitlock was crazy, but this article seemed to be spot on to me. I'm 36, so I grew up listening to Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five, came of age on Rakim, made aware by Public Enemy and danced and rapped along with NWA. But what rappers can't do is pretend that they don't have influence, that what they do doesn't influence a whole generation of youth who look up to them. Music is the soundtrack of our lives, and to think that soundtrack doesn't influence our everyday mood is not realistic.

The Black KKK, I didn't take that to be hip hop, but rather a reference to the Black on Black crime that has become rampant in America, and without uproar there is acceptance.

Memphis, I'm 39 & listened to all those that you mentioned & still love them. I used to stick up for NWA et al, buying the line that "it's real" & "we didn't create it." But the difference between them & G. Flash is that the latter described the streets, e.g. "The Message," and "New York,New York", while NWA & gangster rappers really promoted a lifestyle, bragging about how "hard" they are, carrying guns & calling women any disrespectful name that's in style.

Those was nothing romantic about the streets when Flash & Curtis Mayfield for that matter, were writing songs. In fact they criticized the lifestyle & conveyed how bad it really is.

I think you've accurately summed up Whitlock's stance in your last paragraph.

[BrudLee]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

I'm a white guy so please accept the following question is intended without malice: What is it with that segment of the black community that idealizes the thug lifestyle? (I know that there are segments of all races that idolize it but you know what I mean) I just don't get it. What's the appeal? I've had friends/coworkers who just absolutely let every opportunity to improve themselves pass by because that would be "selling out." For the life of me I dont' get it. It's disgusting to me but I can only imagine it must be truly exhasperating to be black and to see this from your own people in such large quantities. How do you protect your kids from these view points? If these questions/views offend anyone, I apologize, they're honestly just questions, not indictments of anyone's background.

I'm a white guy too, but I think the music is a reflection of the culture, not the other way around. There existed a culture of despair in many neighborhoods before hip-hop told of it. Any effect that music has on behavior is secondary to the root causes. Rich kids who embrace hip-hop largely aren't turning to violence - poor kids are. My fear is that, though glorifying death needs to stop, we are putting the cart before the horse if we think that getting rid of violent music will get rid of violence.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

I'm a white guy so please accept the following question is intended without malice: What is it with that segment of the black community that idealizes the thug lifestyle? (I know that there are segments of all races that idolize it but you know what I mean) I just don't get it. What's the appeal? I've had friends/coworkers who just absolutely let every opportunity to improve themselves pass by because that would be "selling out." For the life of me I dont' get it. It's disgusting to me but I can only imagine it must be truly exhasperating to be black and to see this from your own people in such large quantities. How do you protect your kids from these view points? If these questions/views offend anyone, I apologize, they're honestly just questions, not indictments of anyone's background.

I'm black and live near DC. What you said doesn't offend me. Here is where that thug shit comes from. The people in Southeast DC are out of control. Murders every single day. Black on black crime. It makes me sick. Here is where it starts. Alot of young poor black women get knocked up at an early age and have a kid, two or three. They ( and the father) don't have a decent job or a good enough job to provide for themselves so they have to live in low income areas. The reality is these women should not be having babies. They can't give them a good life but they seem to think having kids is like having a cat or something. So they live in low income areas and the rest is history. That is a big reason why people live in the ghetto. Most of the women living in the ghetto have babies. That is the root of the problem. If these people would stop having babies at 18 then some of this shit would go away. So it just trickles down year after year after year.

Alot of professional athletes come from this type of backround. Michael Vick, Donald Driver, Gilbert Areanas, Byron Leftwich, Labron James, Carmelo Anthony, Pacman Jones, Allen Iverson. I could go on and on. Some make it and leave behind where they came from. Some don't like Vick and Jones and it has cost them. It almost cost Iverson. I have family near Newport News and from everything I've heard Iverson's mother is a hood rat herself. She had him at like 17? No one should be having babies at that age. But that is where it all starts.

[MTK]

I thought Cris Carter made a great point on Inside the NFL last night. He basically said that players can't bring the ghetto to the NFL and they have to cut ties to their prior lives or that's when tragedies like this happen.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by BrudLee

I'm a white guy too, but I think the music is a reflection of the culture, not the other way around. There existed a culture of despair in many neighborhoods before hip-hop told of it. Any effect that music has on behavior is secondary to the root causes. Rich kids who embrace hip-hop largely aren't turning to violence - poor kids are. My fear is that, though glorifying death needs to stop, we are putting the cart before the horse if we think that getting rid of violent music will get rid of violence.

I completely agree with you on that. You'd think this would be as simple as education but it's clearly not. You've got this overwhelmingly negative quantity that truly counteract any positive steps individuals make. But what is the answer? You can't just go around arresting everyone that espouses a certain viewpoint. This isn't 1940's Germany. But at the same time, every citizen in this country has a constitutionally guaranteed right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. If there is a segment of the population that is actively preventing that "pursuit" then they deserve to be stopped with all necessary force and resources.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by pg86

One more thing damnit.


IF music can talk to you and it glorifies so much murder (BTW I listen to rock not rap)

Why not blame it when and if they do catch the person that did this. Then you can go and dig up Tupac or Biggie, or whoever it is that is alive today saying shoot this die fucker die and charge them with murder?

Im sorry but when I hear crap like that I scream get real and Bullshit!.

Ok I'll admit I listen to alot of emo...so if some kid cut his wrists because Hawthorne Heights said cut my writs and black my eyes, can we blame them for his self destructive behavior? Think about it if you still don't get where Im getting at here Im saying we can't blame a musical artist or a genre of music for peoples Deaths. Humanity is simply that cruel and they seek to hurt one another!

The cultural phenomena that drives our kids to say "F... you" instead of "Ma'am" and "Sir" is also driving our children to death in the streets. It may be now that the effects are felt more in the black community than in the white community, but sociopathic meanness is infecting the communities of people in the U.S.A. of all races. There's a general lack of respect for human beings and human life.

It doesn't help that the country has descended again to the death penalty, which makes taking a life seem acceptable behavior, or that a moron has lead us into a murderous and elective war complete with cluster bombs and torture, previously thought unthinkable; or that the justice system is a sham; or that our politicians are utterly corrupt and/or shameless liars; or that religious leaders are sexual perverts.

Rolle says that Taylor was afraid in Miami on an on-going basis and that the murder was connected to jealousy of Taylor and anger against him because he was stepping away socially from former unsavory friends.

I don't know, of course, but that's the most likely senario to me. If I were a police investigator, that's the first possibility I would pursue.

As for the larger question, I don't know exactly what to do to turn back this avalanche of meanness coming at us. I do think that the current amoral and huckster character of our traditional institutions such as church and state and schools and the Bill of Rights (as well as equal rights) are a big part of our children's loss of respect for us and that's a big part of why they're no longer saying Ma'am and Sir.

They're blaming us for the mess we've made. And we have. We didn't kill Sean Taylor, but we created the monsters who did.

[BleedBurgundy]

Not to be rude but this is getting hijacked. If we start in on the politics then we'll get WAY off topic.