Dan Snyder: WP: Formula for Success Article

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by saden1

I honestly dont give a fck if he is nice or not. I care about results and leadership. For Snyder to say it's the GMs job to prevent the owner from hiring a unqualified HC is mind boggling. With a single statement he shifts resposibilty from him and at the same time redefines the function of a GM to that of a henchman and a babysitter of the owner.

Leadership is hiring someone to be the GM and trusting that person to hire thier own people and taking full responsibility for the teams failure and success and not having to say "a GMs job is to prevent the owner from hiring an unqualified HC." If you look around the league this is the structure emplyed by most franchises.

The bolded part is true as long as we keep in mind that the GM doesn't really hire anyone - Snyder hires everyone, because it is his checkbook.

And if you keep that in mind, you will see that Snyder actually is agreeing with you with the statement of his which you find so offensive.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by Lotus

The bolded part is true as long as we keep in mind that the GM doesn't really hire anyone - Snyder hires everyone, because it is his checkbook.

And if you keep that in mind, you will see that Snyder actually is agreeing with you with the statement of his which you find so offensive.

Snyder's past actions speak louder than his words now.

The same mantra "Snyder's stepped back" and "Finally the scouts will be listened to" were said back in the Gibbs 2.0 era. Now we know Snyder was involved, just not as much as before. We heard the mantra again when Shanny was hired. I doubt the rumor Shanny or whoever put out about Snyder getting involved with the team was entirely untrue.

With the Tusker/Gruden/Tampa connections, these latest hires seem to have Allen's fingerprints all over them, but who knows. Snyder doesn't deserve the benefit of a doubt anymore, IMO. When we have a coaching tenure that ends without rumors afterwards that Snyder didn't meddle, then yeah I'll believe Snyder's changed.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Snyder's past actions speak louder than his words now.

The same mantra "Snyder's stepped back" and "Finally the scouts will be listened to" were said back in the Gibbs 2.0 era. Now we know Snyder was involved, just not as much as before. We heard the mantra again when Shanny was hired. I doubt the rumor Shanny or whoever put out about Snyder getting involved with the team was entirely untrue.

With the Tusker/Gruden/Tampa connections, these latest hires seem to have Allen's fingerprints all over them, but who knows. Snyder doesn't deserve the benefit of a doubt anymore, IMO. When we have a coaching tenure that ends without rumors afterwards that Snyder didn't meddle, then yeah I'll believe Snyder's changed.

That will never happen as long as arguments like yours are made. In your post you used past actions to project ideas about current behavior. You'll still be able to do that in 200 years.

If you think Snyder is meddling NOW (not in the past), show your evidence. If you have no evidence, then speculation is pointless.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by Lotus

That will never happen as long as arguments like yours are made. In your post you used past actions to project ideas about current behavior. You'll still be able to do that in 200 years.

If you think Snyder is meddling NOW (not in the past), show your evidence. If you have no evidence, then speculation is pointless.

How about you show evidence that Snyder's changed? I gave you one bit. I don't think it and other signs Snyder's changed outweigh the meddling Snyder's done for over a decade. Turner, Schottenheimer, Gibbs, Zorn, Shanahan.... How many coaching regimes do we have to go through before the burden of proof is on those who argue "Snyder's changed" this time?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

How about you show evidence that Snyder's changed? I gave you one bit. I don't think it and other signs Snyder's changed outweigh the meddling Snyder's done for over a decade. Turner, Schottenheimer, Gibbs, Zorn, Shanahan.... How many coaching regimes do we have to go through before the burden of proof is on those who argue "Snyder's changed" this time?

I think you see a very specific pattern in all of Snyder's time, barring Turner/Schottenheimer where he was the meddler from hell. Since Gibbs, Snyder has significantly changed, but his model is, I find one guy I trust, and then "suggest" what I want to do. Depending on the backbone of the guy he trusts depends on the level of meddling.

With Gibbs, most accounts are that while he involved himself with the players personally, football decisions were entrusted to Gibbs but Gibbs believed in a strong owner so Snyder could "meddle" some.

Cerrato, the leach was always there, and when Gibbs left Cerrato became the trusted guy. Cerrato was and I think is a spineless no nothing who pushed his agenda ahead of the best for football. And Cerrato's bad decisions gave Snyder impetus to push and be overly involved.

Shanallen, I think we finally start to see some level of backing away, where mainly Shanahan but also Allen could push ideas without direct interference. Maybe once in a while on a handful of decisions over 4 years Snyder personally intervened, but percentage wise, and over the vast numbers of decisions, where to have training camp, when Griffin played this season, who the assistant coaches were, etc etc, we didn't see Snyders hand like we did under Cerrato, and certainly not like with Turner/Schottenheimer.

Now we have Allen. Snyder absolutely trusts Allen. I hope it's trust well placed, but clearly, no move so far can be pointed to as a Snyder override of Allen's grand plan.

And SS84, way to be overly dramatic about Snyder "ruining the Skins beyond repair". I think they sell a Skins Repair kit in WalMart (aisle 5).

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I think you see a very specific pattern in all of Snyder's time, barring Turner/Schottenheimer where he was the meddler from hell. Since Gibbs, Snyder has significantly changed, but his model is, I find one guy I trust, and then "suggest" what I want to do. Depending on the backbone of the guy he trusts depends on the level of meddling.

With Gibbs, most accounts are that while he involved himself with the players personally, football decisions were entrusted to Gibbs but Gibbs believed in a strong owner so Snyder could "meddle" some.

Cerrato, the leach was always there, and when Gibbs left Cerrato became the trusted guy. Cerrato was and I think is a spineless no nothing who pushed his agenda ahead of the best for football. And Cerrato's bad decisions gave Snyder impetus to push and be overly involved.

Shanallen, I think we finally start to see some level of backing away, where mainly Shanahan but also Allen could push ideas without direct interference. Maybe once in a while on a handful of decisions over 4 years Snyder personally intervened, but percentage wise, and over the vast numbers of decisions, where to have training camp, when Griffin played this season, who the assistant coaches were, etc etc, we didn't see Snyders hand like we did under Cerrato, and certainly not like with Turner/Schottenheimer.

Now we have Allen. Snyder absolutely trusts Allen. I hope it's trust well placed, but clearly, no move so far can be pointed to as a Snyder override of Allen's grand plan.

And SS84, way to be overly dramatic about Snyder "ruining the Skins beyond repair". I think they sell a Skins Repair kit in WalMart (aisle 5).

Yeah, and I really wish I could convey tone better in a message post. Lotus, nothing against you, and ultimately I wish you were right. CRR, your speculation matches mine, I don't know if my agreeing is a good sign, lol.

Snyder's going to own the team for at least a couple more decades, I fear. Maybe he'll "get it" eventually. I believe even being a stereotypical "hands off" owner takes managerial skill dealing with the people at the top of the organization, even if he doesn't meddle in football matters, so I'm not saying Snyder's job would be easy if he were to be the owner we all wish he would be.

It's just I've heard that Snyder's changed, too many times. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Maybe we'll hear from enough people, once they're out of the organization for good, that Snyder really has stayed out of football matters. Or we'll start winning again in which case it's all good. Winning does "solve" everything.

HTTR

[SolidSnake84]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I think you see a very specific pattern in all of Snyder's time, barring Turner/Schottenheimer where he was the meddler from hell. Since Gibbs, Snyder has significantly changed, but his model is, I find one guy I trust, and then "suggest" what I want to do. Depending on the backbone of the guy he trusts depends on the level of meddling.

With Gibbs, most accounts are that while he involved himself with the players personally, football decisions were entrusted to Gibbs but Gibbs believed in a strong owner so Snyder could "meddle" some.

Cerrato, the leach was always there, and when Gibbs left Cerrato became the trusted guy. Cerrato was and I think is a spineless no nothing who pushed his agenda ahead of the best for football. And Cerrato's bad decisions gave Snyder impetus to push and be overly involved.

Shanallen, I think we finally start to see some level of backing away, where mainly Shanahan but also Allen could push ideas without direct interference. Maybe once in a while on a handful of decisions over 4 years Snyder personally intervened, but percentage wise, and over the vast numbers of decisions, where to have training camp, when Griffin played this season, who the assistant coaches were, etc etc, we didn't see Snyders hand like we did under Cerrato, and certainly not like with Turner/Schottenheimer.

Now we have Allen. Snyder absolutely trusts Allen. I hope it's trust well placed, but clearly, no move so far can be pointed to as a Snyder override of Allen's grand plan.

And SS84, way to be overly dramatic about Snyder "ruining the Skins beyond repair". I think they sell a Skins Repair kit in WalMart (aisle 5).

I don't think he has ruined it beyond repair, i'm trying to say there is nothing stopping him from doing it whether he does it deliberately or unknowingly. I think a few more cycles of coaches being fired and a team that isn't winning might be enough to forever scare away any legitimate coaches, coordinators etc.... I think Snyder is a guy who is doing things over and over again while expecting different results, even though he's done it so many times before and things haven't turned out any different. eg ) This guy didn't win, i'll fire him and the next coach will win. This coach didn't win, i'll fire him and start over. I'll fire the whole staff and start over....etc...etc...

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake84

I don't think he has ruined it beyond repair, i'm trying to say there is nothing stopping him from doing it whether he does it deliberately or unknowingly. I think a few more cycles of coaches being fired and a team that isn't winning might be enough to forever scare away any legitimate coaches, coordinators etc.... I think Snyder is a guy who is doing things over and over again while expecting different results, even though he's done it so many times before and things haven't turned out any different. eg ) This guy didn't win, i'll fire him and the next coach will win. This coach didn't win, i'll fire him and start over. I'll fire the whole staff and start over....etc...etc...

So instead you would rather JJ who thinks Garrett is the next Landry?

Firing a guy for not winning happens EVERY year in the NFL to around 6-8 coaches.

He's definitely NOT doing the same thing over and over, he's tried every angle for hiring a coach you could do:
bought the team:

• Keep current coach - Turner [2 years]
• Fire midseason hire interim (never again say i) [3 games]
• hire ancient chinese secret guy (Probably his best move, and if his ego let Schottenheimer stay two more years a whole different tune would be said) [1 year]
• hire best up and coming college guy (worked this yr for the iggles ) [2 years]
• hire team legend and football legend (again, might've worked but for ST21's death and JG's son's health) [4 years and JG decision to leave]
• Let fans dictate(ie not hire Fassel), and listen to trusted advisor who is an idiot(never again say i) [2 years]
• hire out of work SB winning coach who wants a fresh start (this was the closest to the doing the same thing over and over, but he had to bring in a son of a legend (Allen) instead of wrapping it all up in JG) [3 1/2 of them miserable years - outlasted the other miserables by 1 1/2 years]
• let GM(football guy) pick his guy, who is a sought after coordinator with a winning history and make sure the initials match a Redskins legend. (this one is the lucky one. [5+ hopefully]

my points are:
1) DS has tried every method of getting the right guy
2) the last 10 years he has shown himself more patient. The only exception is Zorn, but if he had kept Zorn into year 3 Fedex would have seen riots.

I just think it's wrong to say Snyder isn't evolving. It's just that growing into a good NFL owner rarely happens quickly.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake84

I don't think he has ruined it beyond repair, i'm trying to say there is nothing stopping him from doing it whether he does it deliberately or unknowingly. I think a few more cycles of coaches being fired and a team that isn't winning might be enough to forever scare away any legitimate coaches, coordinators etc.... I think Snyder is a guy who is doing things over and over again while expecting different results, even though he's done it so many times before and things haven't turned out any different. eg ) This guy didn't win, i'll fire him and the next coach will win. This coach didn't win, i'll fire him and start over. I'll fire the whole staff and start over....etc...etc...

Snyder gave Shanahan everything he desired. Shanahan then put up a 24-40 record over four years, during which time Snyder patiently waited for a winner to appear. Shanahan also gave Snyder a big "F*($ You" by pointlessly benching RGIII. But Snyder is in the wrong and is just repeating past mistakes by firing Shanahan? I don't get that. Many NFL owners would have fired Shanahan given what Shanahan did and didn't do.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

How about you show evidence that Snyder's changed? I gave you one bit. I don't think it and other signs Snyder's changed outweigh the meddling Snyder's done for over a decade. Turner, Schottenheimer, Gibbs, Zorn, Shanahan.... How many coaching regimes do we have to go through before the burden of proof is on those who argue "Snyder's changed" this time?

I didn't argue that Snyder has changed. I said that your argument is essentially circular, as it assumes what it is trying to prove, and hence is fallacious.

Snyder meddled under Shanahan? Prove it. I have seen zero evidence for this which is not just Shanahan crapping on everyone on the way out the door. Offer real evidence that is indisputably not just Shanahan spin.

You can talk about the past all you want. But until you offer evidence from the present, which you have not done despite a call for it, you are engaging in pointless rumor-mongering.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by Lotus

I didn't argue that Snyder has changed. I said that your argument is essentially circular, as it assumes what it is trying to prove, and hence is fallacious.

Snyder meddled under Shanahan? Prove it. I have seen zero evidence for this which is not just Shanahan crapping on everyone on the way out the door. Offer real evidence that is indisputably not just Shanahan spin.

You can talk about the past all you want. But until you offer evidence from the present, which you have not done despite a call for it, you are engaging in pointless rumor-mongering.

The latest rumors could be just Shanahan leaving a turd on the carpet for Snyder to clean up. But after multiple coaches attesting to Snyders involvement, (even during the Gibbs 2.0 era where Gibbs and Cerrato would present their plans to Snyder for approval, which seemed a lot more benign at the time than Snyder and Cerrato acting on their own), the burden of proof that Snyder's changed is on those who would question that Snyder hasn't.

Gruden is the 8th head coach under Snyder. We know Snyder wasn't "hands off" for all but Shanahan. And whether Snyder was "hands off" with Shanny is disputed. How many times should we assume, "Yeah, he's changed this time."?

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

The latest rumors could be just Shanahan leaving a turd on the carpet for Snyder to clean up. But after multiple coaches attesting to Snyders involvement, (even during the Gibbs 2.0 era where Gibbs and Cerrato would present their plans to Snyder for approval, which seemed a lot more benign at the time than Snyder and Cerrato acting on their own), the burden of proof that Snyder's changed is on those who would question that Snyder hasn't.

Gruden is the 8th head coach under Snyder. We know Snyder wasn't "hands off" for all but Shanahan. And whether Snyder was "hands off" with Shanny is disputed. How many times should we assume, "Yeah, he's changed this time."?

You just won't let go of the wrongheaded the-past-proves-the-present argument, will you?

Perhaps you are right. I shall now presume that this year is 2008 because it was 2008 before. Of course that means that you cannot comment on this post because you are not a Warpath member in 2008. It's a shame that things never change, isn't it?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Snyder's past actions speak louder than his words now.

The same mantra "Snyder's stepped back" and "Finally the scouts will be listened to" were said back in the Gibbs 2.0 era. Now we know Snyder was involved, just not as much as before. We heard the mantra again when Shanny was hired. I doubt the rumor Shanny or whoever put out about Snyder getting involved with the team was entirely untrue.

With the Tusker/Gruden/Tampa connections, these latest hires seem to have Allen's fingerprints all over them, but who knows. Snyder doesn't deserve the benefit of a doubt anymore, IMO. When we have a coaching tenure that ends without rumors afterwards that Snyder didn't meddle, then yeah I'll believe Snyder's changed.

The problem with this argument, along with Lotus' note, is that an easy out for a failed coach in DC is to tell a few receptive media friends that Snyder meddled on decisions x, y, and z. An owner, every owner, will have some decisions that they just think are important enough to weigh in on. That doesn't mean that the coach's tenure was marred by intrusive ownership.

I think everyone knows that Snyder was way too involved early on. No sane person disputes that. But he has made significant moves, with mixed results, that reflect a man moving away from the daily decisions. And as you pointed out, this staff absolutely looks like an Allen staff.

The final note, is just because Snyder is not meddling, doesn't by definition mean that those in charge are the right people. We hope they are, but ultimately only time will tell.