Who is Kirk Cousins?

[DYoungJelly]

Originally Posted by 30gut

You win dude.

If you're gonna flat out deny Russ has anything to do with the team's rushing success its hard to have a real discussion about this. No point in even getting into his playmaking, ypa, mediocre receiving corps and spotty OL. Sure, Kirk is as good as Russell Wilson. And because 2 'propped up QBs' made SB runs then we should re-up Kirk right now?

That isn't close to what I said. Cheers.

Kap and Wilson contributed to their teams' success in the same way that RGIII made the 2012 run possible.

The former QBs had the benefit of top defenses as well and went further in my opinion as a result. Also, RGIII's injuries cut his run short compared to the other two. It has taken the league a little more time to catch up to the other two.

I believe that other QBs could have been inserted in either Kap or Wilson's slot during those years and had the same or similar success. (Case in point Alex Smith, who I would consider average.)

I believe that their ability to run, the 4 pro bowlers on their Olines and the two probowl RBs masked a lot of their deficiencies.

Not to say they didn't play well because they did, but many QBs would have success in that situation.

They are now being exposed for what they really are.

The reasons we should sign Kirk have nothing to do with them other than he has been in the polar opposite situation to those guys.

He doesn't have a running game or pro-bowl running backs or a top 3 defense to keep him from playing from behind.

The FO and GM have been able to see what Kirk really is without the benefit of those crutches propping him up. He has been average to above average and has had flashes of brilliance in the worst of situations.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by DYoungJelly

Kap and Wilson contributed to their teams' success in the same way that RGIII made the 2012 run possible.

...I believe that other QBs could have been inserted in either Kap or Wilson's slot during those years and had the same or similar success. (Case in point Alex Smith, who I would consider average.)

I believe that their ability to run, the 4 pro bowlers on their Olines and the two probowl RBs masked a lot of their deficiencies.

Not to say they didn't play well because they did, but many QBs would have success in that situation.

The reasons we should sign Kirk have nothing to do with them other than he has been in the polar opposite situation to those guys.

He doesn't have a running game or pro-bowl running backs or a top 3 defense to keep him from playing from behind.

You said their performances were propped up by defense and running game right? But you also say they played well. But then you say other QBs would have had success. Its like a moving target.

You're dismissing their production because of team success. (btw Rodgers had the #3 ranked defense when they won the SB, Alex Smith has had a top 5 run game and defense with KC)

Sure the defense helps with team success but their production as QBs is their production. The Seahawks had all the pieces in place prior to Russell. Already had the pieces on defense, already had Marshawn Lynch. But their offense was pedestrian prior to his arrival. Seattle's offense went from 22nd by Football Outsiders to 1st. 1st.

Offensively Kirk is in as good position to be productive on offense. (Kirk has a pro-bowler on the OL, and in the backfield also) The weapons on offense are similar, you could argue that Kirk has better weapons now then Russell did then.

But, whatevs...diminish or vacillate on their play in those seasons all you want.

[DYoungJelly]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Offensively Kirk is in as good position to be productive on offense. (Kirk has a pro-bowler on the OL, and in the backfield also)

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Just like SF and Seattle a few years back!

Every time they are going back to the huddle on 2nd and 9 down 2 scores, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by DYoungJelly

Every time they are going back to the huddle on 2nd and 9 down 2 scores, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

You really think our personnel on offense is laughably inferior to theirs? Do you remember the Seahawks offense players?

Maybe Kirk just needs to add 800+ yards rushing?

You wanna trade DeSean, Garcon and Reed/Paul for Baldwin, Kearse and Willson/Helfert?

And their OL is everybit as spotty as ours.

And before Jay destroyed the run game Alf ran for 3 consecutive 1,000 yard seasons.

But sure Russ production was propped up by the same defense and run game that produced the 22nd ranked offense the year before and magically jumping to 1st when he took the helm.

[DYoungJelly]

Originally Posted by 30gut

You really think our personnel on offense is laughably inferior to theirs? Do you remember the Seahawks offense players?

Maybe Kirk just needs to add 800+ yards rushing?

You wanna trade DeSean, Garcon and Reed/Paul for Baldwin, Kearse and Willson/Helfert?

And their OL is everybit as spotty as ours.

And before Jay destroyed the run game Alf ran for 3 consecutive 1,000 yard seasons.

But sure Russ production was propped up by the same defense and run game that produced the 22nd ranked offense the year before and magically jumping to 1st when he took the helm.

It wasn't magic, it was not having Tavaris Jackson and Charlie Whitehurst as the QB anymore.

Wilson was 29th in passing yards per game in 2012: 2012 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

They weren't number 1 in PPG, YPG, or total yards or total points. They were number 1 in F.O. DVOA ranking which is a good measure in my opinion.

They were actually 17th in total yards, 17th in yards per game, 9th in total points, and 9th in points per game: 2012 NFL Team Total Stats - National Football League - ESPN

I mean, Rex Grossman could have taken Seattle to a Super Bowl with that defense and run game. He actually did with Chicago.

In the offensive year you're talking about 2012,

Seattle's RB Lynch ranked 2nd
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | RUNNING BACKS 2012

And Wilson ranked 8th
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2012

2013 Wilson ranked 9th, Lynch 5th
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2013

2014 Wilson ranked 13th, Lynch 2nd
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2014

2015 Wilson ranks 17th, Lynch 16th
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2015

Yes, I think he has been propped up by a hall of fame running back who is the hardest man to get on the ground since Jim Brown. I also believe he has been propped up by the defense.

Wilson has actually declined from year to year while Lynch remained very consistent from 2012 to 2014.

Wilson has ranked below Lynch every year since coming in the league.

When Lynch was injured this year, Wilson wasn't able to rely on his hall of fame RB and he ranks in the bottom half of the league at 17 despite having the #8 D: FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2015 DEFENSE EFFICIENCY RATINGS

Compare Wilson's numbers with Kirk Cousins this year:

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2015

Kirk ranks 10th, while Alf and Jones are 34th and 26th respectively and our defense is 25th.

Totally agree with Punch, we would be 1-9 without him.

I also think we would be 1-9 with Russell Wilson, or Kap, or RGIII.

Nobody is propping Kirk up this year, and Wilson only has the defense propping him up and you can see what the rankings are.

[DYoungJelly]

Originally Posted by 30gut

You said their performances were propped up by defense and running game right? But you also say they played well. But then you say other QBs would have had success. Its like a moving target.

Those three things aren't mutually exclusive. It's not a moving target.

1. Their performances were propped up by the defense and the running game.

2. They did play well.

3. Other QBs would have had success with those teams.

All 3 are 100% true.

The incredibly average Alex Smith was 4 points away from a Super Bowl.