Asante Samuel

[GMScud]

The problem is, what would we give up? Sure, the 6th pick, but do the Pats need anyone projected to go that high? They already have Seymour at DE/DT, they just gave Adailus Thomas a big contract, they obviously don't need a QB, they added Stallworth and Wes Welker to the WR corps, they drafted Maroney is the 1st round last year... Unless they are really high on Laron Landry, but they could probably get Reggie Nelson with one of their two 1st round picks and still keep Samuel. And nobody seems to want our 6th pick b/c it has been too hard to trade it down.

Asante Samuel is an amazing story. And undrafted player out of Central Florida who has turned into a franchise player. He had more INTs than our entire friggin' team last year. I don't care about that run support crap. How many corners can take on an NFL running back one on one anyway? Pretty much all of them would get bowled over. If our D-line and linebackers are doing their job and the safeties come up in support, the corner should be the last defensive player responsible for the run. Imagine the trio of Smoot, Rodgers, and Samuel (the starters could be determined by the WR matchups week to week), with Springs and Taylor at the safeties? That's a wet dream. I'd love to have Samuel, but it ain't gonna happen.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Asante Samuel is an amazing story. And undrafted player out of Central Florida who has turned into a franchise player. He had more INTs than our entire friggin' team last year. I don't care about that run support crap. How many corners can take on an NFL running back one on one anyway? Pretty much all of them would get bowled over. If our D-line and linebackers are doing their job and the safeties come up in support, the corner should be the last defensive player responsible for the run.

Bingo. I don't think anybody blows the "run-stopping corners" out of proportion more than we do here at The Warpath.

Sure it's nice to say that your corners can do that. If you are football player, one of the most basic things they teach you all the way back to pee-wee football is how to tackle. If you are that concerned about your cornerbacks being able to stop the run, then you have problems anyway.

I'm not saying one way or the other about whether we should go after Asante Samuel. Maybe he is too expensive. Maybe it would be nice to have a guy in the secondary who has demonstrated an ability to catch the football better than anyone we have now.

But can we please stop with the bullsh*t about not going after ball-hawking corners who can shut down a receiver because he supposedly can't "stop the run" ?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Bingo. I don't think anybody blows the "run-stopping corners" out of proportion more than we do here at The Warpath.

Sure it's nice to say that your corners can do that. If you are football player, one of the most basic things they teach you all the way back to pee-wee football is how to tackle. If you are that concerned about your cornerbacks being able to stop the run, then you have problems anyway.

I'm not saying one way or the other about whether we should go after Asante Samuel. Maybe he is too expensive. Maybe it would be nice to have a guy in the secondary who has demonstrated an ability to catch the football better than anyone we have now.

But can we please stop with the bullsh*t about not going after ball-hawking corners who can shut down a receiver because he supposedly can't "stop the run" ?

It may be something that gets blown out of proportion a bit around here, but there is some truth to it. Cover 2 corners are typically corners that are a bit more stout against the run. That doesn't mean we should completely rule out going after smaller corners who aren't known for playing the run, but history does show that a guy like Samuel probably isn't an ideal fit in a cover 2 system where he's going to be asked to stick his nose in there against the run quite a bit.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Bingo. I don't think anybody blows the "run-stopping corners" out of proportion more than we do here at The Warpath.

Sure it's nice to say that your corners can do that. If you are football player, one of the most basic things they teach you all the way back to pee-wee football is how to tackle. If you are that concerned about your cornerbacks being able to stop the run, then you have problems anyway.

I'm not saying one way or the other about whether we should go after Asante Samuel. Maybe he is too expensive. Maybe it would be nice to have a guy in the secondary who has demonstrated an ability to catch the football better than anyone we have now.

But can we please stop with the bullsh*t about not going after ball-hawking corners who can shut down a receiver because he supposedly can't "stop the run" ?

How is it blowing it out of proportion? It is widely reported and hell we have all seen it with our own eyes. Our defense requires that corners actually be able to make a tackle in open field. It is a 100% pertinent point. Does anyone here actually think that the only reason we didn't go after Samuel was because he offers no help in run support? Had we been blowing it out of proportion something tells me the Skins would have been salivating to get him here yet we never heard word one about that.

[freddyg12]

I don't think Samuel is as good at his position as Briggs is at his. Briggs could seriously help shore up one side of the field (not advocating the trade btw), whereas Samuel is good enough to shut down a lot of #1 wr's, but he's not worth the $ he's looking for. If we could get him for under 15mil bonus I'd say it'd be a good deal, but based on what Clements & Bly got, I think Samuel will want something in between, say 18-19 mil. I don't think we need to put that kind of bonus toward anybody right now. IF we have to pay the #6 pick that kind of money, at least we have the draft & salary structure to blame for it since picks 1-5 will dictate salary terms. Another reason it would be good to move down & acquire more, cheaper talent.

[#56fanatic]

I am all for upgrading our team with any position. but I would have to vote no against this. Samuel is a good corner, but with our addition of smoot, that leaves 3 starting corners and dont think we need 4 starting caliber corners. i dont think that is much an area of concern as other portions of our team. Coverage is as good as the pressure up front. and we all know we had absolutely no pressure. I dont care who you are, champ, Dieon if you have to cover a WR in the NFL for 5 seconds or more, he will get open. If your corners know they only have 2 to 3 seconds before the ball is coming out, then they are much better, or appear to be much better than they are. With no pressure our secondary looked like swiss cheese, and pretty much any NFL team that generates no pressure will too. I think we are fine where we are right now. Hey, here is a crazy thought, if we had some picks we could probably pick up a decent corner in the 2nd or 3rd round! OOPS, i guess that wont happen.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

How is it blowing it out of proportion? It is widely reported and hell we have all seen it with our own eyes. Our defense requires that corners actually be able to make a tackle in open field. It is a 100% pertinent point. Does anyone here actually think that the only reason we didn't go after Samuel was because he offers no help in run support? Had we been blowing it out of proportion something tells me the Skins would have been salivating to get him here yet we never heard word one about that.

I'm saying that I just don't think there's much to this notion that there are corners who are so lacking in run support abilities that they can't make it in this defense. They won't make it in ANY defense!!! Everybody has to know how to tackle. People who can't won't make it in football. It's my belief that when we all say, "oh, we don't need this cornerback, he can't tackle" -- that's fan-speak. If Gregg Williams' defense is so nuanced to the point that it can't work with prototypical corners, then there would be no cornerbacks on his roster -- there'd be nothing but strong safeties.

And just where is it written that Asante Samuel "can't make a tackle in the open field"? Do we have actual proof of this claim? Would Bill Belichick keep someone on his roster than can't make an open field tackle? Of course not.

That's why all this talk of cornerbacks like Asante Samuel not being suitable for this particular defense in the judgement of Warpathers is absolute nonsense.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I'm saying that I just don't think there's much to this notion that we cannot bring corners in who can't provide run support. Everybody has to know how to tackle. People who can't won't make it in football. It's my belief that when we all say, "oh, we don't need this cornerback, he can't tackle" -- that's fan-speak. If Gregg Williams' defense is so nuanced to the point that it can't work with prototypical corners, then there would be no cornerbacks on his roster -- there'd be nothing but strong safeties.

And just where is it written that Asante Samuel "can't make a tackle in the open field"? Do we have actual proof of this claim? Would Bill Belichick keep someone on his roster than can't make an open field tackle? Of course not.

That's why all this talk of cornerbacks like Asante Samuel not being suitable for this particular defense in the judgement of Warpathers is absolute nonsense.

I think I tend to agree with you here. We talk up how specialized Gregg Williams defense is, but my God, we just need football players.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I'm saying that I just don't think there's much to this notion that there are corners who are so lacking in run support abilities that they can't make it in this defense. They won't make it in ANY defense!!! Everybody has to know how to tackle. People who can't won't make it in football. It's my belief that when we all say, "oh, we don't need this cornerback, he can't tackle" -- that's fan-speak. If Gregg Williams' defense is so nuanced to the point that it can't work with prototypical corners, then there would be no cornerbacks on his roster -- there'd be nothing but strong safeties.

And just where is it written that Asante Samuel "can't make a tackle in the open field"? Do we have actual proof of this claim? Would Bill Belichick keep someone on his roster than can't make an open field tackle? Of course not.

That's why all this talk of cornerbacks like Asante Samuel not being suitable for this particular defense in the judgement of Warpathers is absolute nonsense.

I completely disagree with everything you've said regarding this CB run support issue.

Yes, every player must know how to tackle to play pee wee football. That doesn't mean they're all good at it at the NFL level.

And run support isn't always tackling in the open field. Sometimes it's having the speed to come up on a sweep to your side of the field, and take away the sideline, forcing the RB to cut up the field towards the swarm of LBs that's racing towards him. You don't have to make the tackle, but you have to either slow the RB down, or you have to redirect him back to the heart of the defense. That takes speed, recognition to quickly diagnose the play as a run to your side, and aggressiveness to willingly attack the ballcarrier and defend the sideline.

GW's defense is predicated on flexibility. We want our safeties to cover so that he can feel free to blitz corners sometimes. We want our LBs capable of covering a Jeremy Shockey just as well as they can tackle a Brandon Jacobs. We want our defensive linemen, especially the backups, to be capable of shifting from DE to DT.

And we need our corners to be capable of coming up and delivering a blow to RBs so that we can feel free to blitz our LBs or safeties, and still be able to prevent an RB from taking a screen pass to the house.

If you want flexibility to move your players around on the field and attack from unexpected angles, then you have to have versatile players. When the LBs are on a blitz and attacking the QB, there better be someone there who can do the LB's job when he's not there. Sean Taylor can't be everywhere, as good as he is. If you want to be a blitzing team, you need CBs that can hit.

[Beemnseven]

So you're saying that even for the right price, Gregg Williams would pass up on a cornerback who can smother a wideout, even if his game isn't centered on stopping the run -- Darrell Green for example?

To paraphrase you:

"LOL ok"

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

So you're saying that even for the right price, Gregg Williams would pass up on a cornerback who can smother a wideout, even if his game isn't centered on stopping the run -- Darrell Green for example?

To paraphrase you:

"LOL ok"

I think you're misunderstanding here.

I never said a player like Samuel wouldn't fit here or wouldn't be considered at the right price, but the truth is there are players that are better fits for a cover 2 system like Williams runs.

That's why he favors bigger corners who can play the run and blitz, and safeties who are flexible enough to play the nickel and dime positions, and even corner in a pinch.

To completely disregard the fact that there are cover 2 corners and cover corners is ridiculous.

[Rajmahal33]

While we are throwing out outrageous scenarios that aren't going to happen...how about bringing back Champ? We have an open line of communication with the broncos. Snyder can throw money at him and doom the franchise for years to come like he always does...maybe we can even trade Ladell Betts to them, so that we could have Portis AND champ (ya know having our cake and eating it too). It's fun to dream.

Look, why do we need to make some blockbuster trade in order for our offseason to be successful? First it was clements, then it was briggs, now Samuels? How about just stickin with the modest moves that we have made thus far and possibly trying to acquire some more day 1 picks by trading out of the #6. I believe that less is more for the skins, especially when it comes to fewer offseason moves and keeping continuity in the roster.

[vaoutlaws2006]

To completely disregard the fact that there are cover 2 corners and cover corners is ridiculous.[/quote]


if you dont understand that then you dont know football overly well.

[#56fanatic]

If I recall - GW defense is based on pressure. His defense works better when he has corners that can cover one on one due to the blitzes both on run downs and passing downs. His defense is a version of the 46, which corners are asked to cover one on one a lot. I dont care if a corner can tackle or not, to me they shouldn't be making 10 tackles a game. RB's should not be cosistantly getting to that level like they were last year. the Safeties in this D are asked to be more flexible. Cover and run support. I am not buying the whole big , physical corner stuff. I will take a cover/shut down corner any day of the week.