What's your defnition of 'conservative playcalling'?

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

hahaha firstdown are you catching feelings from last weeks post about fan behavior? lighten up buddy, were on the same team!!!

It was not said towards you but your right it was not needed.

[SC Skins Fan]

I hate to confuse the issue by inserting some facts into the conversation, but I'll give it a shot anyway. Let's actually take a look at the play-by-play from the second half of yesterdays game. Bear in mind that these facts don't give you a proper understanding of exactly how horribly the offensive line played yesterday, but hopefully we can all take that as a given at this point, even though some still like to say that "Fabini and Wade have started four games now, they're starters!" (there is a reason that Fabini got cut by the Cowboys and there is a reason Pucillo was a 7th round pick and there is a reason Wade didn't pan out in either Miami or Houston and there is a reason DeMulling was available to sign of the street in week four ... they are just not as good as the guys who were starting in front of them and couldn't start for most teams in the NFL). That being said:

Drive 1:
-Rock Cartwright returns kick to AZ 21
-1st and 10: Portis Run for -2
-2nd and 12: Portis run for 8
-3rd and 4: J. Campbell Pass attempt, sacked by a completely untouched Calvin Pace -8
-4th and 12: Suisham misses 41 yard kick

Conservative play calling? Maybe you don't like the runs on 1st and 2nd, but they got us to a manageable 3rd and 4. Clearly a protection breakdown by the right side because Wade blocked air and Pace was completely untouched. I have no problem with the play calling here, piss poor execution does the Skins in again.

Drive 2:

1-10-WAS 41 (11:45) 17-J.Campbell pass short left to 82-A.Randle El to ARI 33 for 26 yards (52-M.Beisel).
1-10-ARI 33 (11:23) 26-C.Portis left end to ARI 31 for 2 yards (92-B.Berry).
2-8-ARI 31 (10:47) 17-J.Campbell pass short right to 83-J.Thrash to ARI 26 for 5 yards (26-R.Hood).
3-3-ARI 26 (10:07) 17-J.Campbell pass short right to 47-C.Cooley to ARI 23 for 3 yards (25-E.Green).
1-10-ARI 23 (9:32) 26-C.Portis right guard to ARI 21 for 2 yards (21-A.Rolle).
2-8-ARI 21 (8:58) 26-C.Portis right end to ARI 19 for 2 yards (97-C.Pace).
3-6-ARI 19 (8:18) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell scrambles right end pushed ob at ARI 11 for 8 yards (42-T.Holt).
1-10-ARI 11 (7:50) 46-L.Betts right end to ARI 11 for no gain (98-G.Watson).
2-10-ARI 11 (7:14) 46-L.Betts right guard to ARI 1 for 10 yards (42-T.Holt).
1-1-ARI 1 (6:30) 45-M.Sellers left guard to ARI 1 for no gain (93-C.Cooper).
2-1-ARI 1 (5:51) 26-C.Portis left guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

Great Drive in my opinion and Jason made two big plays that made the whole thing work. The throw to Randle El was terrific, he put it right on his back shoulder because he saw the saftey coming over the middle. The location of the pass and Randle El's adjustment to it allowed El to turn the ball towards the sideline and pick up some nice YAC. If Jason throws it in front of El then he gets smashed and maybe drops the ball. On 3-6 the Skins called a shovel pass and Jason sees the Cards have it covered perfectly. Instead of throwing it into coverage and causing an incompletion or turnover he holds the ball and runs for the first down, two veteran plays. Betts has a nice run and I think he scored, nonetheless Portis gets into the endzone.

Drive 3:

1-10-WAS 30 (14:47) 26-C.Portis up the middle to WAS 30 for no gain (92-B.Berry, 52-M.Beisel).
2-10-WAS 30 (14:10) 17-J.Campbell pass short left to 26-C.Portis to WAS 35 for 5 yards (25-E.Green).
3-5-WAS 35 (13:28) (Shotgun) PENALTY on WAS-47-C.Cooley, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at WAS 35 - No Play.
3-10-WAS 30 (13:16) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass short middle to 45-M.Sellers to WAS 38 for 8 yards (54-G.Hayes, 90-D.Dockett).

Here is where the boo birds came out at FedEx (what the hell is the point of booing your own team? I'll never understand that...Philly fans do that, Skins fans should be better than that). I guess you could say conservative play calling here. The penalty on Cooley put them in a third and long, they went shotgun (don't all you guys love the shotgun?) and I GUARANTEE that Sellers was not the first option on that pass (probably the fourth). I'd have to get the all-22 to see, but I think we can say the Cards had it covered down field, or at least JC thought so.

Drive 4:

1-10-WAS 13 (7:14) 26-C.Portis up the middle to WAS 17 for 4 yards (24-A.Wilson).
2-6-WAS 17 (6:40) 45-M.Sellers up the middle to WAS 18 for 1 yard (52-M.Beisel).
3-5-WAS 18 (6:03) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete short middle to 82-A.Randle El.

Probably the worst drive of the game, conservative? Yes, I'd say so. The call to Sellers was less than inspired, but if they pick up three or four than it is 3rd and short. Still a manageable third down situation. JC got big pressure here and the throw to El was both short of the first down and off target. JC rushed the throw and probably gave up on some deeper reads very quickly because of pressure, either perceived or real (I'd have to go back and look. I can't remember but I think the Cards brought a full house blitz, maybe it was a fire zone, I don't think the blocking was completely horrible, but JC went quick to his hot and was probably a bit spooked by this point).

Drive 5:

1-10-WAS 20 (3:38) 26-C.Portis left end to WAS 23 for 3 yards (54-G.Hayes).
2-7-WAS 23 (3:03) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete deep right to 83-J.Thrash (26-R.Hood).
3-7-WAS 23 (2:56) 26-C.Portis left end pushed ob at WAS 24 for 1 yard (25-E.Green). Penalty on WAS-60-C.Samuels

Three minutes left in the game, Skins ahead. Should be able to go into a four-minute offense here and run out the clock. Unfortunately that would require actually blocking someone up front and the Skins couldn't do that all day. On second and long the Skins line up in Shotgun (gasp!) but Thrash can't hold onto the ball, granted it was a tough catch but he got his hands on it. Those are the plays you need to make to win games. Watching the game I think to myself "well, at least the guys on the Warpath can't say the Skins didn't take any shots deep at the end of the game. WRONG. After taking the deep shot and missing you could try again and risk a turnover or an incompletion to stop the clock. Skins decide to run, don't have a problem with that, but can't block anyone and penalty on Samuels stops clock anyway. Poor execution again.

I don't have a problem with the play calling, personally, and I'd also point out that the Cards never abandoned the run even though they got stuffed the whole game. By the end Edge started breaking off some nice runs and they wore the Skins D out. That is why you continue to run the football. I know I have convinced no one and it is like bashing my head against a brick wall, but I thought I would at least try to bring some empiricism to the discussion.

[GMScud]

I don't know what my full definition of conservative playcalling is, but I can't stand that we NEVER throw down the middle of the field. AND we're heading into week 8 and don't have a single stinkin WR with a TD! That's pathetic. Our rush average is lame, and we're reverting back to the old horizontal offense. We struggle mightily to get first downs, especially in the second half with the game on the line. We have a QB who can make every throw imaginable, yet we rarely try to stretch the field. 2 or 3 yard runs on 1st and 2nd down may be "Gibbs Football," but with our line in the tattered shape it's in, we need to adapt a little here. We've got to mix it up, and do it more often than the occasional throw of 15+ yards. We are deeper at WR than most teams in the league, and we repeatedly fail to get the passing game going.

Our second half offense is glaringly bad. Defesive coaches are making adjustments at halftime and we're not readjusting. And our offensive coaches (Bugel, Gibbs, Saunders, Breaux...) are pretty set in their ways. Unfortunately I don't see it changing any time soon. It's stunk pretty badly the entire time Gibbs has been here (except during the 5 game run to the playoffs in '05), and if not for Gregg Williams bailing him out with great defense, we'd probably be 2-4 or worse.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

I hate to confuse the issue by inserting some facts into the conversation, but I'll give it a shot anyway. Let's actually take a look at the play-by-play from the second half of yesterdays game. Bear in mind that these facts don't give you a proper understanding of exactly how horribly the offensive line played yesterday, but hopefully we can all take that as a given at this point, even though some still like to say that "Fabini and Wade have started four games now, they're starters!" (there is a reason that Fabini got cut by the Cowboys and there is a reason Pucillo was a 7th round pick and there is a reason Wade didn't pan out in either Miami or Houston and there is a reason DeMulling was available to sign of the street in week four ... they are just not as good as the guys who were starting in front of them and couldn't start for most teams in the NFL). That being said:

Drive 1:
-Rock Cartwright returns kick to AZ 21
-1st and 10: Portis Run for -2
-2nd and 12: Portis run for 8
-3rd and 4: J. Campbell Pass attempt, sacked by a completely untouched Calvin Pace -8
-4th and 12: Suisham misses 41 yard kick

Conservative play calling? Maybe you don't like the runs on 1st and 2nd, but they got us to a manageable 3rd and 4. Clearly a protection breakdown by the right side because Wade blocked air and Pace was completely untouched. I have no problem with the play calling here, piss poor execution does the Skins in again.

Drive 2:

1-10-WAS 41 (11:45) 17-J.Campbell pass short left to 82-A.Randle El to ARI 33 for 26 yards (52-M.Beisel).
1-10-ARI 33 (11:23) 26-C.Portis left end to ARI 31 for 2 yards (92-B.Berry).
2-8-ARI 31 (10:47) 17-J.Campbell pass short right to 83-J.Thrash to ARI 26 for 5 yards (26-R.Hood).
3-3-ARI 26 (10:07) 17-J.Campbell pass short right to 47-C.Cooley to ARI 23 for 3 yards (25-E.Green).
1-10-ARI 23 (9:32) 26-C.Portis right guard to ARI 21 for 2 yards (21-A.Rolle).
2-8-ARI 21 (8:58) 26-C.Portis right end to ARI 19 for 2 yards (97-C.Pace).
3-6-ARI 19 (8:18) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell scrambles right end pushed ob at ARI 11 for 8 yards (42-T.Holt).
1-10-ARI 11 (7:50) 46-L.Betts right end to ARI 11 for no gain (98-G.Watson).
2-10-ARI 11 (7:14) 46-L.Betts right guard to ARI 1 for 10 yards (42-T.Holt).
1-1-ARI 1 (6:30) 45-M.Sellers left guard to ARI 1 for no gain (93-C.Cooper).
2-1-ARI 1 (5:51) 26-C.Portis left guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

Great Drive in my opinion and Jason made two big plays that made the whole thing work. The throw to Randle El was terrific, he put it right on his back shoulder because he saw the saftey coming over the middle. The location of the pass and Randle El's adjustment to it allowed El to turn the ball towards the sideline and pick up some nice YAC. If Jason throws it in front of El then he gets smashed and maybe drops the ball. On 3-6 the Skins called a shovel pass and Jason sees the Cards have it covered perfectly. Instead of throwing it into coverage and causing an incompletion or turnover he holds the ball and runs for the first down, two veteran plays. Betts has a nice run and I think he scored, nonetheless Portis gets into the endzone.

Drive 3:

1-10-WAS 30 (14:47) 26-C.Portis up the middle to WAS 30 for no gain (92-B.Berry, 52-M.Beisel).
2-10-WAS 30 (14:10) 17-J.Campbell pass short left to 26-C.Portis to WAS 35 for 5 yards (25-E.Green).
3-5-WAS 35 (13:28) (Shotgun) PENALTY on WAS-47-C.Cooley, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at WAS 35 - No Play.
3-10-WAS 30 (13:16) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass short middle to 45-M.Sellers to WAS 38 for 8 yards (54-G.Hayes, 90-D.Dockett).

Here is where the boo birds came out at FedEx (what the hell is the point of booing your own team? I'll never understand that...Philly fans do that, Skins fans should be better than that). I guess you could say conservative play calling here. The penalty on Cooley put them in a third and long, they went shotgun (don't all you guys love the shotgun?) and I GUARANTEE that Sellers was not the first option on that pass (probably the fourth). I'd have to get the all-22 to see, but I think we can say the Cards had it covered down field, or at least JC thought so.

Drive 4:

1-10-WAS 13 (7:14) 26-C.Portis up the middle to WAS 17 for 4 yards (24-A.Wilson).
2-6-WAS 17 (6:40) 45-M.Sellers up the middle to WAS 18 for 1 yard (52-M.Beisel).
3-5-WAS 18 (6:03) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete short middle to 82-A.Randle El.

Probably the worst drive of the game, conservative? Yes, I'd say so. The call to Sellers was less than inspired, but if they pick up three or four than it is 3rd and short. Still a manageable third down situation. JC got big pressure here and the throw to El was both short of the first down and off target. JC rushed the throw and probably gave up on some deeper reads very quickly because of pressure, either perceived or real (I'd have to go back and look. I can't remember but I think the Cards brought a full house blitz, maybe it was a fire zone, I don't think the blocking was completely horrible, but JC went quick to his hot and was probably a bit spooked by this point).

Drive 5:

1-10-WAS 20 (3:38) 26-C.Portis left end to WAS 23 for 3 yards (54-G.Hayes).
2-7-WAS 23 (3:03) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete deep right to 83-J.Thrash (26-R.Hood).
3-7-WAS 23 (2:56) 26-C.Portis left end pushed ob at WAS 24 for 1 yard (25-E.Green). Penalty on WAS-60-C.Samuels

Three minutes left in the game, Skins ahead. Should be able to go into a four-minute offense here and run out the clock. Unfortunately that would require actually blocking someone up front and the Skins couldn't do that all day. On second and long the Skins line up in Shotgun (gasp!) but Thrash can't hold onto the ball, granted it was a tough catch but he got his hands on it. Those are the plays you need to make to win games. Watching the game I think to myself "well, at least the guys on the Warpath can't say the Skins didn't take any shots deep at the end of the game. WRONG. After taking the deep shot and missing you could try again and risk a turnover or an incompletion to stop the clock. Skins decide to run, don't have a problem with that, but can't block anyone and penalty on Samuels stops clock anyway. Poor execution again.

I don't have a problem with the play calling, personally, and I'd also point out that the Cards never abandoned the run even though they got stuffed the whole game. By the end Edge started breaking off some nice runs and they wore the Skins D out. That is why you continue to run the football. I know I have convinced no one and it is like bashing my head against a brick wall, but I thought I would at least try to bring some empiricism to the discussion.

Very nice to see some facts instead of people's skewed memories of what they thought happened.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

I don't have a problem with the play calling, personally, and I'd also point out that the Cards never abandoned the run even though they got stuffed the whole game. By the end Edge started breaking off some nice runs and they wore the Skins D out. That is why you continue to run the football.

I don't think it was any reflection on the defense so much as we probably were playing pass considering how late in the game it was.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

I hate to confuse the issue by inserting some facts into the conversation, but I'll give it a shot anyway. Let's actually take a look at the play-by-play from the second half of yesterdays game. Bear in mind that these facts don't give you a proper understanding of exactly how horribly the offensive line played yesterday, but hopefully we can all take that as a given at this point, even though some still like to say that "Fabini and Wade have started four games now, they're starters!" (there is a reason that Fabini got cut by the Cowboys and there is a reason Pucillo was a 7th round pick and there is a reason Wade didn't pan out in either Miami or Houston and there is a reason DeMulling was available to sign of the street in week four ... they are just not as good as the guys who were starting in front of them and couldn't start for most teams in the NFL). That being said:

Drive 1:
-Rock Cartwright returns kick to AZ 21
-1st and 10: Portis Run for -2
-2nd and 12: Portis run for 8
-3rd and 4: J. Campbell Pass attempt, sacked by a completely untouched Calvin Pace -8
-4th and 12: Suisham misses 41 yard kick

Conservative play calling? Maybe you don't like the runs on 1st and 2nd, but they got us to a manageable 3rd and 4. Clearly a protection breakdown by the right side because Wade blocked air and Pace was completely untouched. I have no problem with the play calling here, piss poor execution does the Skins in again.

Drive 2:

1-10-WAS 41 (11:45) 17-J.Campbell pass short left to 82-A.Randle El to ARI 33 for 26 yards (52-M.Beisel).
1-10-ARI 33 (11:23) 26-C.Portis left end to ARI 31 for 2 yards (92-B.Berry).
2-8-ARI 31 (10:47) 17-J.Campbell pass short right to 83-J.Thrash to ARI 26 for 5 yards (26-R.Hood).
3-3-ARI 26 (10:07) 17-J.Campbell pass short right to 47-C.Cooley to ARI 23 for 3 yards (25-E.Green).
1-10-ARI 23 (9:32) 26-C.Portis right guard to ARI 21 for 2 yards (21-A.Rolle).
2-8-ARI 21 (8:58) 26-C.Portis right end to ARI 19 for 2 yards (97-C.Pace).
3-6-ARI 19 (8:18) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell scrambles right end pushed ob at ARI 11 for 8 yards (42-T.Holt).
1-10-ARI 11 (7:50) 46-L.Betts right end to ARI 11 for no gain (98-G.Watson).
2-10-ARI 11 (7:14) 46-L.Betts right guard to ARI 1 for 10 yards (42-T.Holt).
1-1-ARI 1 (6:30) 45-M.Sellers left guard to ARI 1 for no gain (93-C.Cooper).
2-1-ARI 1 (5:51) 26-C.Portis left guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

Great Drive in my opinion and Jason made two big plays that made the whole thing work. The throw to Randle El was terrific, he put it right on his back shoulder because he saw the saftey coming over the middle. The location of the pass and Randle El's adjustment to it allowed El to turn the ball towards the sideline and pick up some nice YAC. If Jason throws it in front of El then he gets smashed and maybe drops the ball. On 3-6 the Skins called a shovel pass and Jason sees the Cards have it covered perfectly. Instead of throwing it into coverage and causing an incompletion or turnover he holds the ball and runs for the first down, two veteran plays. Betts has a nice run and I think he scored, nonetheless Portis gets into the endzone.

Drive 3:

1-10-WAS 30 (14:47) 26-C.Portis up the middle to WAS 30 for no gain (92-B.Berry, 52-M.Beisel).
2-10-WAS 30 (14:10) 17-J.Campbell pass short left to 26-C.Portis to WAS 35 for 5 yards (25-E.Green).
3-5-WAS 35 (13:28) (Shotgun) PENALTY on WAS-47-C.Cooley, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at WAS 35 - No Play.
3-10-WAS 30 (13:16) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass short middle to 45-M.Sellers to WAS 38 for 8 yards (54-G.Hayes, 90-D.Dockett).

Here is where the boo birds came out at FedEx (what the hell is the point of booing your own team? I'll never understand that...Philly fans do that, Skins fans should be better than that). I guess you could say conservative play calling here. The penalty on Cooley put them in a third and long, they went shotgun (don't all you guys love the shotgun?) and I GUARANTEE that Sellers was not the first option on that pass (probably the fourth). I'd have to get the all-22 to see, but I think we can say the Cards had it covered down field, or at least JC thought so.

Drive 4:

1-10-WAS 13 (7:14) 26-C.Portis up the middle to WAS 17 for 4 yards (24-A.Wilson).
2-6-WAS 17 (6:40) 45-M.Sellers up the middle to WAS 18 for 1 yard (52-M.Beisel).
3-5-WAS 18 (6:03) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete short middle to 82-A.Randle El.

Probably the worst drive of the game, conservative? Yes, I'd say so. The call to Sellers was less than inspired, but if they pick up three or four than it is 3rd and short. Still a manageable third down situation. JC got big pressure here and the throw to El was both short of the first down and off target. JC rushed the throw and probably gave up on some deeper reads very quickly because of pressure, either perceived or real (I'd have to go back and look. I can't remember but I think the Cards brought a full house blitz, maybe it was a fire zone, I don't think the blocking was completely horrible, but JC went quick to his hot and was probably a bit spooked by this point).

Drive 5:

1-10-WAS 20 (3:38) 26-C.Portis left end to WAS 23 for 3 yards (54-G.Hayes).
2-7-WAS 23 (3:03) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete deep right to 83-J.Thrash (26-R.Hood).
3-7-WAS 23 (2:56) 26-C.Portis left end pushed ob at WAS 24 for 1 yard (25-E.Green). Penalty on WAS-60-C.Samuels

Three minutes left in the game, Skins ahead. Should be able to go into a four-minute offense here and run out the clock. Unfortunately that would require actually blocking someone up front and the Skins couldn't do that all day. On second and long the Skins line up in Shotgun (gasp!) but Thrash can't hold onto the ball, granted it was a tough catch but he got his hands on it. Those are the plays you need to make to win games. Watching the game I think to myself "well, at least the guys on the Warpath can't say the Skins didn't take any shots deep at the end of the game. WRONG. After taking the deep shot and missing you could try again and risk a turnover or an incompletion to stop the clock. Skins decide to run, don't have a problem with that, but can't block anyone and penalty on Samuels stops clock anyway. Poor execution again.

I don't have a problem with the play calling, personally, and I'd also point out that the Cards never abandoned the run even though they got stuffed the whole game. By the end Edge started breaking off some nice runs and they wore the Skins D out. That is why you continue to run the football. I know I have convinced no one and it is like bashing my head against a brick wall, but I thought I would at least try to bring some empiricism to the discussion.

Your post highlighted what I've been saying all along.. Focus on drives 3, 4, 5. What happened right before that? We went up 2 TD.. For some reason, that is the trigger to get away from being aggressive. You said it yourself, that's when we got conservative..

I've never claimed our entire offense is conservative, it just drives me nuts to see us stop attacking once we have a 2 TD lead.. We can't keep hanging the defense out to dry like that.. We've been the better team on the field each week so far, but that's not always going to be the case How about shotgun on downs other than on 3rd and long? How about not running the ball on 1st down on 4 of 5 2nd half possessions?? Maybe I should have termed the thread passivity rather than conservatism but it's kinda the same thing..

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Your post highlighted what I've been saying all along.. Focus on drives 3, 4, 5. What happened right before that? We went up 2 TD.. For some reason, that is the trigger to get away from being aggressive. You said it yourself, that's when we got conservative..

I've never claimed our entire offense is conservative, it just drives me nuts to see us stop attacking once we have a 2 TD lead.. We can't keep hanging the defense out to dry like that.. We've been the better team on the field each week so far, but that's not always going to be the case How about shotgun on downs other than on 3rd and long? How about not running the ball on 1st down on 4 of 5 2nd half possessions?? Maybe I should have termed the thread passivity rather than conservatism but it's kinda the same thing..

Do the coaches change their game-plans if we are up by 10 points? Yes, just as coaches change their game-plans if they are down by 10 points. Do the coaches get sometimes too conservative/passive? In my opinion, yes. But, it's not as though the coaches are NEVER calling aggressive plays in the second half of games. The coaches called deep bombs in the second halves of the Philly, NYG, and GB games that didn't connect. Had JC connected with Moss on those deep-plays, I doubt people would be saying how conservative our coaches get when playing with a lead.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Do the coaches change their game-plans if we are up by 10 points? Yes, just as coaches change their game-plans if they are down by 10 points. Do the coaches get sometimes too conservative/passive? In my opinion, yes. But, it's not as though the coaches are NEVER calling aggressive plays in the second half of games. The coaches called deep bombs in the second halves of the Philly, NYG, and GB games that didn't connect. Had JC connected with Moss on those deep-plays, I doubt people would be saying how conservative our coaches get when playing with a lead.

Again, it's not just about the bombs.. It's about the mid range passing game moreso than bombs.. It's about not being predictable all the time.. It's about a mentality of attacking rather than just trying to bleed the clock when the defense knows exactly what's coming..

BTW, it's not just some of us 'clueless, just plain stupid' fans who see the questionable play calling pattern.. Redskins Insider

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Again, it's not just about the bombs.. It's about the mid range passing game moreso than bombs.. It's about not being predictable all the time.. It's about a mentality of attacking rather than just trying to bleed the clock when the defense knows exactly what's coming..

BTW, it's not just some of us 'clueless, just plain stupid' fans who see the questionable play calling pattern.. Redskins Insider

He says JC generally had plenty of time to throw.

Very interesting observation. Just not sure what game he was watching exactly but whatever.

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

He says JC generally had plenty of time to throw.

Very interesting observation. Just not sure what game he was watching exactly but whatever.

I thought the same thing when I read that. JC had time sometimes, but whenever the Cards brought any kind of pressure it was a complete CF. JLC brings good info and I generally like his stuff, but let's face it, the guy's passion is soccer, football is his job. I'm not looking to him for the hard-hitting analysis of the nuances of football and I'm not going to run to him to break down game film.

I will, however, concede that the latest article in the Post would seem to bolster the case of the "conservative play-calling" folks. I still don't think they had the opportunities to do much in that second half, but from JG's lips to God's ears I suppose.

washingtonpost.com

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

But, it's not as though the coaches are NEVER calling aggressive plays in the second half of games. The coaches called deep bombs in the second halves of the Philly, NYG, and GB games that didn't connect. Had JC connected with Moss on those deep-plays, I doubt people would be saying how conservative our coaches get when playing with a lead.

I believe our playcalling has been too conservative overall. However my main problem with Drive 5 is the deep pass on 2nd down. If you want to be aggressive, fine, but when your offense is struggling, you are up by 8, there are 3 minutes left, and the DEF is playing well, either run or call a high percentage pass. Don't be "aggressive" just to say, "I was aggresive". Be smart, play the percentages, if the Skins run another 30 seconds or more off the clock or ARI burns timeouts the game is essentially over. This poor decision made the difference between sealing the victory without too much stress or getting fortunate Rackers missed wide by about a foot. Saunders or Gibbs (whoever's decision this one was) is getting paid too much to make this kind of strategic mistake IMO.

[mike340]

I thought their play-calling was atrocious especially on first down. In addition that second-down long pass to Thrash was highly ill-advised. Was that the highest-percentage pass they could come up with?

Using the information in your post, look at the results on first down:
Rush: -2, 2, 2, 0, 0, 0, 4!, 3 (8 carries, 9 yards)
Pass: 26 (short pass)

It was obvious the defense was focusing on the run on first down. When JC had his "breakthrough" game, Saunders said afterwards they were focusing on getting JC's completion percentage up. Why not the high-percentage quick hits on first down? After all, their first-down runs were not getting them towards new downs. This was because everybody knew we couldn't get yardage to the right so they could stack the left, thus leaving us unable to get yardage on either side (or the middle with Rabach out.) But with the passing game, the whole field, left to right, was available for attack.
Interestingly, when they passed on second down they were 2 for 2 for 5 yards each before the ill-advised throw to Thrash. (These were high-percentage passes.)
Thus they had 3 high-percentage passes on first and second down, all three were completed, and the worst gained a healthy 5 yards.
In short, our high-percentage passes had almost as much chance of keeping the clock moving as a run, but would have set us up much better to try to get a first down since it would have always been second or third and short. Except for the second and goal, on average on second down we needed 9 yards for the first down.

On the other hand, passing on third down was (or should have been) a disaster. Here's how third down went
Rush: 1 yd.
Pass: sack(-8), 3(1st down), 8(scramble for a 1st, but nothing open), 8(no 1st), incomplete
???(probably pass): Penalty

If our line can't open up the lanes for the run, can we try high-percentage passes on first down to have second and short? By being quick routes the OL doesn't have to block that long, and at the same time the defensive guys who get penetration are out of the play.

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

I hate to confuse the issue by inserting some facts into the conversation, but I'll give it a shot anyway. Let's actually take a look at the play-by-play from the second half of yesterdays game. Bear in mind that these facts don't give you a proper understanding of exactly how horribly the offensive line played yesterday, but hopefully we can all take that as a given at this point, even though some still like to say that "Fabini and Wade have started four games now, they're starters!" (there is a reason that Fabini got cut by the Cowboys and there is a reason Pucillo was a 7th round pick and there is a reason Wade didn't pan out in either Miami or Houston and there is a reason DeMulling was available to sign of the street in week four ... they are just not as good as the guys who were starting in front of them and couldn't start for most teams in the NFL). That being said:

Drive 1:
-Rock Cartwright returns kick to AZ 21
-1st and 10: Portis Run for -2
-2nd and 12: Portis run for 8
-3rd and 4: J. Campbell Pass attempt, sacked by a completely untouched Calvin Pace -8
-4th and 12: Suisham misses 41 yard kick

Conservative play calling? Maybe you don't like the runs on 1st and 2nd, but they got us to a manageable 3rd and 4. Clearly a protection breakdown by the right side because Wade blocked air and Pace was completely untouched. I have no problem with the play calling here, piss poor execution does the Skins in again.

Drive 2:

1-10-WAS 41 (11:45) 17-J.Campbell pass short left to 82-A.Randle El to ARI 33 for 26 yards (52-M.Beisel).
1-10-ARI 33 (11:23) 26-C.Portis left end to ARI 31 for 2 yards (92-B.Berry).
2-8-ARI 31 (10:47) 17-J.Campbell pass short right to 83-J.Thrash to ARI 26 for 5 yards (26-R.Hood).
3-3-ARI 26 (10:07) 17-J.Campbell pass short right to 47-C.Cooley to ARI 23 for 3 yards (25-E.Green).
1-10-ARI 23 (9:32) 26-C.Portis right guard to ARI 21 for 2 yards (21-A.Rolle).
2-8-ARI 21 (8:58) 26-C.Portis right end to ARI 19 for 2 yards (97-C.Pace).
3-6-ARI 19 (8:18) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell scrambles right end pushed ob at ARI 11 for 8 yards (42-T.Holt).
1-10-ARI 11 (7:50) 46-L.Betts right end to ARI 11 for no gain (98-G.Watson).
2-10-ARI 11 (7:14) 46-L.Betts right guard to ARI 1 for 10 yards (42-T.Holt).
1-1-ARI 1 (6:30) 45-M.Sellers left guard to ARI 1 for no gain (93-C.Cooper).
2-1-ARI 1 (5:51) 26-C.Portis left guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

Great Drive in my opinion and Jason made two big plays that made the whole thing work. The throw to Randle El was terrific, he put it right on his back shoulder because he saw the saftey coming over the middle. The location of the pass and Randle El's adjustment to it allowed El to turn the ball towards the sideline and pick up some nice YAC. If Jason throws it in front of El then he gets smashed and maybe drops the ball. On 3-6 the Skins called a shovel pass and Jason sees the Cards have it covered perfectly. Instead of throwing it into coverage and causing an incompletion or turnover he holds the ball and runs for the first down, two veteran plays. Betts has a nice run and I think he scored, nonetheless Portis gets into the endzone.

Drive 3:

1-10-WAS 30 (14:47) 26-C.Portis up the middle to WAS 30 for no gain (92-B.Berry, 52-M.Beisel).
2-10-WAS 30 (14:10) 17-J.Campbell pass short left to 26-C.Portis to WAS 35 for 5 yards (25-E.Green).
3-5-WAS 35 (13:28) (Shotgun) PENALTY on WAS-47-C.Cooley, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at WAS 35 - No Play.
3-10-WAS 30 (13:16) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass short middle to 45-M.Sellers to WAS 38 for 8 yards (54-G.Hayes, 90-D.Dockett).

Here is where the boo birds came out at FedEx (what the hell is the point of booing your own team? I'll never understand that...Philly fans do that, Skins fans should be better than that). I guess you could say conservative play calling here. The penalty on Cooley put them in a third and long, they went shotgun (don't all you guys love the shotgun?) and I GUARANTEE that Sellers was not the first option on that pass (probably the fourth). I'd have to get the all-22 to see, but I think we can say the Cards had it covered down field, or at least JC thought so.

Drive 4:

1-10-WAS 13 (7:14) 26-C.Portis up the middle to WAS 17 for 4 yards (24-A.Wilson).
2-6-WAS 17 (6:40) 45-M.Sellers up the middle to WAS 18 for 1 yard (52-M.Beisel).
3-5-WAS 18 (6:03) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete short middle to 82-A.Randle El.

Probably the worst drive of the game, conservative? Yes, I'd say so. The call to Sellers was less than inspired, but if they pick up three or four than it is 3rd and short. Still a manageable third down situation. JC got big pressure here and the throw to El was both short of the first down and off target. JC rushed the throw and probably gave up on some deeper reads very quickly because of pressure, either perceived or real (I'd have to go back and look. I can't remember but I think the Cards brought a full house blitz, maybe it was a fire zone, I don't think the blocking was completely horrible, but JC went quick to his hot and was probably a bit spooked by this point).

Drive 5:

1-10-WAS 20 (3:38) 26-C.Portis left end to WAS 23 for 3 yards (54-G.Hayes).
2-7-WAS 23 (3:03) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete deep right to 83-J.Thrash (26-R.Hood).
3-7-WAS 23 (2:56) 26-C.Portis left end pushed ob at WAS 24 for 1 yard (25-E.Green). Penalty on WAS-60-C.Samuels

Three minutes left in the game, Skins ahead. Should be able to go into a four-minute offense here and run out the clock. Unfortunately that would require actually blocking someone up front and the Skins couldn't do that all day. On second and long the Skins line up in Shotgun (gasp!) but Thrash can't hold onto the ball, granted it was a tough catch but he got his hands on it. Those are the plays you need to make to win games. Watching the game I think to myself "well, at least the guys on the Warpath can't say the Skins didn't take any shots deep at the end of the game. WRONG. After taking the deep shot and missing you could try again and risk a turnover or an incompletion to stop the clock. Skins decide to run, don't have a problem with that, but can't block anyone and penalty on Samuels stops clock anyway. Poor execution again.

I don't have a problem with the play calling, personally, and I'd also point out that the Cards never abandoned the run even though they got stuffed the whole game. By the end Edge started breaking off some nice runs and they wore the Skins D out. That is why you continue to run the football. I know I have convinced no one and it is like bashing my head against a brick wall, but I thought I would at least try to bring some empiricism to the discussion.