Liberal Supermajority

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Redskins8588

Maybe not directly but to pay a person $40 -$60/hour just to sit there and watch parts go buy is way too much money. Then to promise that person the wages and insurance when they retire is insane. If you look at and compare the union workers in the ford, gm, and chrysler plants to the honda, hyundi, and toyota plants you will see that the workers in the big three have it much easier. I mean for christ's sakes chrysler wanted to take $20 away from their workers just to put them on the same level as the honda, toyota, and hyundi workers and the union said "NO". Even with the $20 decrease they still were making $25-$40 per hour. I bet that helped out their cause not to go bankrupted. Just recently a transfercase company in Syracuse, NY is shutting down because of the union. The workers voted down a contract 4 times after the company gave each worker $77,000 to help with the decrease of the workers pay by $9. $77,000 just given to you, and yet the people still vote down a contract between the company and the union. Now their will be around 5,000 people with out a job and the union is the middle man. I bet that helps out the economy also...

One more thing unions are why you have to overpay for a vehicle by $10,000 to $15,000...

Really? You make it sound all fun and games at plant GM. Honestly though, when you disrespect them in such manner you squander any credibility you have. There's more than meets the eye but why bother with details when you can just toss numbers around without citation. I smell the foul stench of hearsay painted with manure.

Pssst, the average worker salary at GM is not 40-60 dollars an hour as you have state. The average worker's hourly rate is $69 which includes benefits and legacy retiree cost and is expected to go down to $62 in 2010. The actual average take home pay is ~$30 which is comparative to that of Toyota and et al.


Help corporate America, support Universal Health Care.

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by saden1

Really? You make it sound all fun and games at plant GM. Honestly though, when you disrespect them in such manner you squander any credibility you have. There's more than meets the eye but why bother with details when you can just toss numbers around without citation. I smell the foul stench of hearsay painted with manure.

Pssst, the average worker salary at GM is not 40-60 dollars an hour as you have state. The average worker's hourly rate is $69 which includes benefits and legacy retiree cost and is expected to go down to $62 in 2010. The actual average take home pay is ~$30 which is comparative to that of Toyota and et al.


Help corporate America, support Universal Health Care.

Either way your telling me that it ok for people to make that money for not doing anything, not being a skilled labor? What America do you live in? Are you part of a union? I am only speaking of the UAW, and what I have seen in these plants it is nothing more than f*<king highway robbery going on...

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Redskins8588

Either way your telling me that it ok for people to make that money for not doing anything, not being a skilled labor? What America do you live in? Are you part of a union? I am only speaking of the UAW, and what I have seen in these plants it is nothing more than f*<king highway robbery going on...

Here i was thinking that before GM's decline they manufactured 9.35 million car in 2007 vs 9.5 million cars that Toyota built. With relatively the same number of employees too.

Believe it or not but you don't know what you're talking about and I am more than happy to inform you.

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by saden1

Here i was thinking that before GM's decline they manufactured 9.35 million car in 2007 vs 9.5 million cars that Toyota built. With relatively the same number of employees too.

Believe it or not but you don't know what you're talking about and I am more than happy to inform you.

Whatever union lover, next your going to tell me that any kid that shows up to an athletic event should get a trophy just for trying. Yeah that's a good way to teach work ethic, and pamper the lazy. I would love to see an union employee try to work in a non-union factory, the key word there is "work," you won't find that in any union dictionary. Then you will follow up with the education system needs to eliminate physical education just because little Johnny or little Suzy may not be as good as others and their feelings may be hurt...

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Redskins8588

Whatever union lover, next your going to tell me that any kid that shows up to an athletic event should get a trophy just for trying. Yeah that's a good way to teach work ethic, and pamper the lazy. I would love to see an union employee try to work in a non-union factory, the key word there is "work," you won't find that in any union dictionary. Then you will follow up with the education system needs to eliminate physical education just because little Johnny or little Suzy may not be as good as others and their feelings may be hurt...

Your incoherent babbling is pathetic. There are many not so kind words to describe you and I'm pretty confidant you've heard them all so I'll spare you from having to hear them again. Watch out for the cliff ahead genius.

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by saden1

Your incoherent babbling is pathetic. There are many not so kind words to describe you and I'm pretty confidant you've heard them all so I'll spare you from having to hear them again. Watch out for the cliff ahead genius.

Whatever, maybe I was wrong, maybe its not the union that will be the downfall of this country. The downfall of this country will be people like you with ideas like yours...

[BringBackJoeT]

Originally Posted by Redskins8588

Whatever union lover, next your going to tell me that any kid that shows up to an athletic event should get a trophy just for trying. Yeah that's a good way to teach work ethic, and pamper the lazy. I would love to see an union employee try to work in a non-union factory, the key word there is "work," you won't find that in any union dictionary. Then you will follow up with the education system needs to eliminate physical education just because little Johnny or little Suzy may not be as good as others and their feelings may be hurt...

Ignorance combined with a healthly dose of utter nonsense. Lovely concoction . . .

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by BringBackJoeT

Ignorance combined with a healthly dose of utter nonsense. Lovely concoction . . .

Say what you want the point is America is getting to "SOFT"...

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

Here i was thinking that before GM's decline they manufactured 9.35 million car in 2007 vs 9.5 million cars that Toyota built. With relatively the same number of employees too.

Believe it or not but you don't know what you're talking about and I am more than happy to inform you.

Before busting 8588s chops you probably should've done a little more homework. He is much closer to being correct on this point than you. While the worldwide sales and employee numbers are the same you forgot the most important number....I know this is hard for a lefty to comprehend....profits. GM = - $2B, Toyota = + $ 13B.

You should also read this article from AutoObserver/Edmunds, a non-politcal source:

So, Toyota’s No. 1. What Now GM? - Auto Observer

The article mentions exactly what 8588 is talking about. From the article:
North America: GM’s Challenge
Still, North America is GM’s home base, and the carmaker has its work cut out for it here.
It’s still got too many employees -– both salaried and hourly –- in its ranks. Clearly, GM needs a favorable contract with the UAW this fall and could use some help on health care issues, as the entire country could.
But it’s also got bloated ranks of salaried employees, many of the complacent and adding no value; in fact, they may well be hindering value. Only yesterday, hours after the “Toyota surpasses GM” announcement, I sat at a high school sporting event with a GM employee. He was telling me about co-workers just putting in their time until they were offered a buyout or were due for retirement. One, that very afternoon, was seeking out a quiet spot for an afternoon siesta, he told me. GM, get rid of them!

I don't have any experience in the auto industry, but I have extensive experience in the telecom/networking industry and I can tell you with 100% certainty, whenever I was pricing a project that involved union workers I knew my cost would be significantly higher, the rules/regs would be much more difficult to navigate, and the customer would ultimately be at the mercy of the "union rules". I always avoided using union labor after a couple of bad experiences.

Were the unions a good thing back in the first half of the 1900s, absolutely. Today the free market is the best way to determine wages and pricing. That's why a vast majority of US workers are non-union, and companies cannot be competitive with union workers. You and the left may not like it, but that's reality.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Before busting 8588s chops you probably should've done a little more homework. He is much closer to being correct on this point than you. While the worldwide sales and employee numbers are the same you forgot the most important number....I know this is hard for a lefty to comprehend....profits. GM = - $2B, Toyota = + $ 13B.

You should also read this article from AutoObserver/Edmunds, a non-politcal source:

Imagine that, a company from a socialist country having the upper hand. Hopefully the democrats will be able to duplicate their success politically, socially, and commercially (without the mistakes of course ).

GM has 5 billion a year committed to health care for current employees and 47 billion in future obligations to retirees. If only unions would allow GM to terminate these health benefits GM would be in much better shape. As for 8588's posts, they're nothing more than dickish rants. There's nothing correct about calling them under-worked and overpaid.

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

So, Toyota's No. 1. What Now GM? - Auto Observer

The article mentions exactly what 8588 is talking about. From the article:
North America: GM’s Challenge
Still, North America is GM’s home base, and the carmaker has its work cut out for it here.
It’s still got too many employees -– both salaried and hourly –- in its ranks. Clearly, GM needs a favorable contract with the UAW this fall and could use some help on health care issues, as the entire country could.
But it’s also got bloated ranks of salaried employees, many of the complacent and adding no value; in fact, they may well be hindering value. Only yesterday, hours after the “Toyota surpasses GM” announcement, I sat at a high school sporting event with a GM employee. He was telling me about co-workers just putting in their time until they were offered a buyout or were due for retirement. One, that very afternoon, was seeking out a quiet spot for an afternoon siesta, he told me. GM, get rid of them!

I don't have any experience in the auto industry, but I have extensive experience in the telecom/networking industry and I can tell you with 100% certainty, whenever I was pricing a project that involved union workers I knew my cost would be significantly higher, the rules/regs would be much more difficult to navigate, and the customer would ultimately be at the mercy of the "union rules". I always avoided using union labor after a couple of bad experiences.

Were the unions a good thing back in the first half of the 1900s, absolutely. Today the free market is the best way to determine wages and pricing. That's why a vast majority of US workers are non-union, and companies cannot be competitive with union workers. You and the left may not like it, but that's reality.

I don't even know what that means. There are plenty of non-union shops where people hold similar sentiment and I am sure you would take a buyout from a sinking ship as well. Don't confuse human nature with nurture.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

Imagine that, a company from a socialist country having the upper hand. Hopefully the democrats will be able to duplicate their success politically, socially, and commercially (without the mistakes of course ).

GM has 5 billion a year committed to health care for current employees and 47 billion in future obligations to retirees. If only unions would allow GM to terminate these health benefits GM would be in much better shape. As for 8588's posts, they're nothing more than dickish rants. There's nothing correct about calling them under-worked and overpaid.



I don't even know what that means. There are plenty of non-union shops where people hold similar sentiment and I am sure you would take a buyout from a sinking ship as well. Don't confuse human nature with nurture.

So now your getting your facts from Auto Weekly and last month it was YouTube. I'm guessing next month will be SNL. LOL

[saden1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

So now your getting your facts from Auto Weekly and last month it was YouTube. I'm guessing next month will be SNL. LOL

It is certainly better than simply saying "I hear that [...]"

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

Imagine that, a company from a socialist country having the upper hand. Hopefully the democrats will be able to duplicate their success politically, socially, and commercially (without the mistakes of course ).

I haven't done my homework on the details of Japan's health care system, but it sure sounds something like a program we already have in the U.S., Medicare. The legacy health costs the US automakers are/were shouldering are a result of stupidity/greed on the part of their boards and the leadership of the IAW.

If the Democrat party in the U.S. held these ideals, I would certainly have no problem with supporting them:
The LDP traditionally identified itself with a number of general goals: rapid, export-based economic growth; close cooperation with the United States in foreign and defense policies; and several newer issues, such as administrative reform. Administrative reform encompassed several themes: simplification and streamlining of government bureaucracy; privatization of state owned enterprises; and adoption of measures, including tax reform, needed to prepare for the strain on the economy posed by an aging society. Other priorities in the early 1990s included promoting a more active and positive role for Japan in the rapidly developing Asia-Pacific region, internationalizing Japan's economy by liberalizing and promoting domestic demand, creating a high technology information society, and promoting scientific research. A business-inspired commitment to free enterprise was tempered by the insistence of important small business and agricultural constituencies on some form of protectionism and subsidies.

As for 8588's posts, they're nothing more than dickish rants. There's nothing correct about calling them under-worked and overpaid.

As far as the "rant" part, that's between you guys. I agree with points made by both of you, the end result in most union shops is that the workers are less-worked and paid higher compared to their non-union counterparts. But also, the rank and file of the unions shoulder only a small portion of the blame (as do GM/Chrysler/Ford stockholders) for the current state-of-affairs. The rank and file are mostly hard-working folks just trying to do the best they can for their families.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

Really? You make it sound all fun and games at plant GM. Honestly though, when you disrespect them in such manner you squander any credibility you have. There's more than meets the eye but why bother with details when you can just toss numbers around without citation. I smell the foul stench of hearsay painted with manure.

Pssst, the average worker salary at GM is not 40-60 dollars an hour as you have state. The average worker's hourly rate is $69 which includes benefits and legacy retiree cost and is expected to go down to $62 in 2010. The actual average take home pay is ~$30 which is comparative to that of Toyota and et al.


Help corporate America, support Universal Health Care.

SO how many people do you know working at a place like GM?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

SO how many people do you know working at a place like GM?

What does that have to with anything? I could claim to know one person and you would not know if I am telling the truth or lying. I don't need to personally know a GM employee to know the numbers.