It's Talent, Not Coaching.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

what is mcnabb? 3rd in the nfc in passing yards? 8-10 in the nfl?

putting this last game aside, we have had a much improved aerial attack. this year's offense has had many more explosive long-yard plays.

i just wonder how much not having even a decent o line effects the play calling, how much does it limit what the shannys want to do. this on top of mike shanahan making comments or atelast impling that mcnabb is not as far along on the learning curve as he had hoped.

i really think mcnabb was a necessary addition in mike's mind b/c he knew with a horrid o line he was going to have alot of trouble even running an effective base offense without a veteran qb at the helm.

we have found some cheap talent like torain, banks, armstrong. im not saying torain is a legit #1 runningback or that armstrong has solidified the no 2 receiver spot or that banks is anything more than a special special teams player but, given what he and allen had to work with and with the addition of trent williams as a permenant starter at LT and j brown hopefully healthy enough to lock down the RT spot, i think our FO did the best they could.

no, it wasnt a complete blow it up and start from scratch approach but the moves they made, did upgrade this team.

Only temporarily and not enough to justify the cost. We're 28th in points scored, which is what really matters for offense. Shanahan always has had an eye for drafting offensive talent and finding offensive talent in UDFA. A higher draft pick is more important for a rebuild.

[skinsguy]

I really think if this team concentrates on the offensive and defensive lines in the off-season, this will help the Redskins a lot more than anything else. What was the common ingredients of all of those great Redskins teams of the 80's? Solid offensive and defensive lines. Several different QBs and RBs in that decade.

I really hope this is what the FO focuses on in the off season!

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

Only temporarily and not enough to justify the cost. We're 28th in points scored, which is what really matters for offense. Shanahan always has had an eye for drafting offensive talent and finding offensive talent in UDFA. A higher draft pick is more important for a rebuild.

trent williams - rookie, cost us our 1st round draft pick
banks - free
torain - free
brown - a 3rd or 4th round pick
mcnabb - 2nd and 3/4th rounder
carriker - moved back 15-20 spots in 5th round

the moves were designed to upgrade this team. mcnabb upgraded the qb position for this season plus the next 2 years at a cost of a 2nd and 3 or 4th rounder. j brown could be a steal if he gets back to form/pro bowl and he if he stays he is going to lock down the RT spot for years to come. trent locks down the LT.

getting 2 spots on the O line locked down for years to come, one is hopefully going to be a stud LT, is progress and upgrade.

it sucks we dont have the talent at the DL or linebacker position, makke (sp?) has disappointed and AH is a disgruntled pos.

we need to add atleast 1 more O lineman with our 1 or 2 rounder. it sucks thomas, kelly didnt solidify our receiving corps, to have 3 2nd rounders and pretty much walk away with nothing just flat out sucks. wtf was vinny thinking overloading on that position when samuels, jansen, thomas, kendall all had 1 foot in the grave.

fact is we have upgraded our oline and qb. we just have so many holes and depth problems, they all cant be addressed in one offseason.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

trent williams - rookie, cost us our 1st round draft pick
banks - free
torain - free
brown - a 3rd or 4th round pick
mcnabb - 2nd and 3/4th rounder
carriker - moved back 15-20 spots in 5th round

the moves were designed to upgrade this team. mcnabb upgraded the qb position for this season plus the next 2 years at a cost of a 2nd and 3 or 4th rounder. j brown could be a steal if he gets back to form/pro bowl and he if he stays he is going to lock down the RT spot for years to come. trent locks down the LT.

getting 2 spots on the O line locked down for years to come, one is hopefully going to be a stud LT, is progress and upgrade.

it sucks we dont have the talent at the DL or linebacker position, makke (sp?) has disappointed and AH is a disgruntled pos.

we need to add atleast 1 more O lineman with our 1 or 2 rounder. it sucks thomas, kelly didnt solidify our receiving corps, to have 3 2nd rounders and pretty much walk away with nothing just flat out sucks. wtf was vinny thinking overloading on that position when samuels, jansen, thomas, kendall all had 1 foot in the grave.

fact is we have upgraded our oline and qb. we just have so many holes and depth problems, they all cant be addressed in one offseason.

I was referring to just McNabb and Brown. I'm quite aware they're upgrades for this season, and maybe for the next 3 seasons. However, after they leave or are rendered ineffective down the road, do we still feel the effect of these "phantom" upgrades. Nope. When a player leaves the team, any residual effect is minimal. Brown and McNabb fade away, leaving only those young guys, who I know will be here in the future.

How the hell did you even think I mean the entire aggregate of offensive additions, I cannot fathom. However, it's quite clear you're like an alcoholic. Addicted to the short-term "escape" from the hard reality. If not earlier, 3 years from now, you'll be wondering why the hell is Nate Allen with the Sheagles and is Pro Bowl S while we're still trying to find the next QB of the future. Allen, or anyone else we could have taken with the 2nd rounder year, could be the "cost" of obtaining McNabb and only having a QB upgrade for 3 season.

I still cannot fathom why the hell you brought the rest of them when I was just referring to McNabb and Brown as not worth the cost. Is Jared Veldheer that repugnant to you? Oakland runs a ZBS and he's already seeing action.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

I was referring to just McNabb and Brown. I'm quite aware they're upgrades for this season, and maybe for the next 3 seasons. However, after they leave or are rendered ineffective down the road, do we still feel the effect of these "phantom" upgrades. Nope. When a player leaves the team, any residual effect is minimal. Brown and McNabb fade away, leaving only those young guys, who I know will be here in the future.

How the hell did you even think I mean the entire aggregate of offensive additions, I cannot fathom. However, it's quite clear you're like an alcoholic. Addicted to the short-term "escape" from the hard reality. If not earlier, 3 years from now, you'll be wondering why the hell is Nate Allen with the Sheagles and is Pro Bowl S while we're still trying to find the next QB of the future. Allen, or anyone else we could have taken with the 2nd rounder year, could be the "cost" of obtaining McNabb and only having a QB upgrade for 3 season.

I still cannot fathom why the hell you brought the rest of them when I was just referring to McNabb and Brown as not worth the cost. Is Jared Veldheer that repugnant to you? Oakland runs a ZBS and he's already seeing action.

my bad, i didnt know i wasnt allowed to mention the long term young additions our FO did this past offseason in response to your statements that we only added old temporary bandaids.

i dont think one 2nd round pick is going to make or break the 2013 skins. the benefit and upgrade of mcnabb over campbell is worth a 2nd rounder to me, especially if you expect to compete in 2011 and 2012. i expect this team to be very competitive no later than 2012.

to answer your other question; a jason campbell behind this years O line plus veldheer would repugnate me this year and for years to come.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

my bad, i didnt know i wasnt allowed to mention the long term young additions our FO did this past offseason in response to your statements that we only added old temporary bandaids.

i dont think one 2nd round pick is going to make or break the 2013 skins. the benefit and upgrade of mcnabb over campbell is worth a 2nd rounder to me, especially if you expect to compete in 2011 and 2012. i expect this team to be very competitive no later than 2012.

to answer your other question; a jason campbell behind this years O line plus veldheer would repugnate me this year and for years to come.

The young ones didn't have a cost except for the roster spot, did they? So why the hell did you bring them up when I was only talking about McNabb and Brown, aka the TRADES.

I'm sorry if you can't understand the simple concept that McNabb and Brown will be providing 0 utility to this team in three years while a whole host of players from the second round this year's draft will be to their respective teams long afterwards(5-10 years).

A rebuild means a complete forgoing of the present and imminent future for continued success in the longer term. McNabb will only benefit the team in the near future, but his supporting cast will not be improved sufficiently to get us to the Super Bowl, which is the only reasonable justification of trading away picks for a short-term solution. The FO did not commit to a true rebuild. They tried to win now and reload, and they are now accomplishing neither. McNabb will be 37 by the time you expect the O to "explode", and to expect him to be injury-free by then is dreaming at its finest.

Also, I support the move for trading Campbell. However, do realize that we could have coaxed even more out of Oakland if McNabb did not come here because there would be no "we're going to get rid him anyway" bargaining chip for Al Davis to play.

I want a QB who's either a young one with a really high ceiling or a damn good one in his prime, not a aging player who is likely going to retire in three years.

I'm not sure what made you think I wanted to keep JC. I have repeatedly stated that bombing this season with Rex was the way to go on here. We need to obtain players who are going to last a long time, and for the moment, practically only those types of players. Having a high draft position and a full load of high-round picks is the best way to go about that.
JC is 29 and too old for that. Besides, it's not like he was a lock to re-sign here.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

The young ones didn't have a cost except for the roster spot, did they? So why the hell did you bring them up when I was only talking about McNabb and Brown, aka the TRADES.

Not sure you really made that clear from the get go

I'm sorry if you can't understand the simple concept that McNabb and Brown will be providing 0 utility to this team in three years while a whole host of players from the second round this year's draft will be to their respective teams long afterwards(5-10 years).

Debatable

A rebuild means a complete forgoing of the present and imminent future for continued success in the longer term. McNabb will only benefit the team in the near future, but his supporting cast will not be improved sufficiently to get us to the Super Bowl, which is the only reasonable justification of trading away picks for a short-term solution. The FO did not commit to a true rebuild. They tried to win now and reload, and they are now accomplishing neither. McNabb will be 37 by the time you expect the O to "explode", and to expect him to be injury-free by then is dreaming at its finest.

Redskins fans would never ever ever accept a complete dismantling and rebuild.

Also, I support the move for trading Campbell. However, do realize that we could have coaxed even more out of Oakland if McNabb did not come here because there would be no "we're going to get rid him anyway" bargaining chip for Al Davis to play.

Yeah well we actually got more for Campbell than people (including Oakland) were even offering before we got McNabb. No one wanted McNabb. Maybe it's because we were trying to move him for 18 months, but McNabb had little to nothing to do with it.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Redskins fans would never ever ever accept a complete dismantling and rebuild.

This is unfortunate, but correct.