Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Schwartz. Let's see... This is his third year with the Lions. He's also had the benefit of the #1 overall pick in '09 with Stafford and the #2 overall pick with Suh. Plus he inherited one of the best wideouts in the game with Calvin Johnson. His front office has also set him up nicely -- This year, they were able to collect two second round picks, a pair of 1st rounders in 2009, and another pair of 1st rounders 2010. So he's had much more to work with in Detroit.

Not only that, Schwartz has now lost 3 of his last 4. So no, I stand by my statement that there's not a coach out there who'd be doing any better with what we have.

Well, Schwartz inherited a team that was a punch-line not just in the NFL, but in all sports nationwide in general. They had been decimated by years of Matt Millen's stewardship. He's been there 2+ seasons, and they've really turned it around in that time. Plus Matt Stafford was hurt for a large chunk of his time as HC.

I'm not ready to bail on Shanny just yet, but I will be if next year at this time the Skins are not leaps and bounds ahead of the hot garbage we're currently witnessing.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GMScud

I'm not ready to bail on Shanny just yet, but I will be if next year at this time the Skins are not leaps and bounds ahead of the hot garbage we're currently witnessing.

I think the only difference between you and I is that I think the 2012 draft is too critical to leave to an administration that is just going to get whacked at midseason next year for lack of results. If a change is needed, we should make it with the intention of getting the right people in here to draft the next QB. I can't justify letting the Shanahan's pick a quarterback in the first round in a desperate attempt to salvage the mess they created.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think the only difference between you and I is that I think the 2012 draft is too critical to leave to an administration that is just going to get whacked at midseason next year for lack of results. If a change is needed, we should make it with the intention of getting the right people in here to draft the next QB. I can't justify letting the Shanahan's pick a quarterback in the first round in a desperate attempt to salvage the mess they created.

I don't think Shanny has done a poor job with the draft selections he's made. Kerrigan, Jenkins, and Hankerson all seem like they'll be good players in this league. Perry Riley looks good, too. And Maurice Hurt is able to crack the lineup despite being a 7th rounder. He's brought in some decent talent.

However, I think his decisions at the QB position have been nothing short of disastrous, and he should bear the full blame. Also, with regard to the QB position and the draft, I think the net negative of both not selecting a QB (not even a developmental later round pick) and trading high picks for McNabb is a terrible gaffe.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GMScud

I don't think Shanny has done a poor job with the draft selections he's made. Kerrigan, Jenkins, and Hankerson all seem like they'll be good players in this league. Perry Riley looks good, too. And Maurice Hurt is able to crack the lineup despite being a 7th rounder. He's brought in some decent talent.

However, I think his decisions at the QB position have been nothing short of disastrous, and he should bear the full blame. Also, with regard to the QB position and the draft, I think the net negative of both not selecting a QB (not even a developmental later round pick) and trading high picks for McNabb is a terrible gaffe.

I have no problem with the drafting they've done. In spite of that, I don't think it makes sense to let them pick a quarterback if 90% of that QB's career will be determined by a different coaching staff. It is so very hard to envision a scenario where Mike Shanahan is both the head coach of the Redskins through 2015 and a successful one.

Under normal circumstances, I don't think it's a good idea to bail on a coach after two years, but why let a lame duck coach draft a quarterback? If it wasn't before, it's now clear that Mike Shanahan isn't going to build a great team here. I'm just trying to figure out what everyone elses expectations for 2012 are that makes doing this dance again worth doing. The idea that we'll have a second year quarterback heading into 2013 while trying to find a head coach is horrifying enough. Knowing that Mike Shanahan just may pick that QB doesn't make it any easier to swallow.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I have no problem with the drafting they've done. In spite of that, I don't think it makes sense to let them pick a quarterback if 90% of that QB's career will be determined by a different coaching staff. It is so very hard to envision a scenario where Mike Shanahan is both the head coach of the Redskins through 2015 and a successful one.

Under normal circumstances, I don't think it's a good idea to bail on a coach after two years, but why let a lame duck coach draft a quarterback? If it wasn't before, it's now clear that Mike Shanahan isn't going to build a great team here. I'm just trying to figure out what everyone elses expectations for 2012 are that makes doing this dance again worth doing. The idea that we'll have a second year quarterback heading into 2013 while trying to find a head coach is horrifying enough. Knowing that Mike Shanahan just may pick that QB doesn't make it any easier to swallow.

What you're saying makes sense, if we're conceding that no one on the current staff (at least offensively) will be running this team in 2013, 14, or 15. What if the powers that be know Mike may not be here in a few years, but Kyle will be? Not saying you or I agree with that, but that could be the thinking.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GMScud

What you're saying makes sense, if we're conceding that no one on the current staff (at least offensively) will be running this team in 2013, 14, or 15. What if they powers that be know Mike may not be here in a few years, but Kyle will be? Not saying you or I agree with that, but that could be the thinking.

I think I considered that at the time of the hire, and, well, I didn't think that was realistic then and I don't think it's realistic now.

But I think even if that was the original plan, I don't see how that's different from any other type of 5 year contract for the head coach. Sure, the original expectation is that you have a long term solution, but if you don't, then you go in another direction when the current one isn't feasible anymore.

I think if it was going to happen here for Mike or Kyle, we'd have some sort of positive identity 25 games in. Because the only identity that Mike has left is baffling press conferences, I think the premise that the clock is ticking is inevitable.

It wouldn't be the worst thing to give a third year to this group, but I don't know why you would if the feeling is that we're just delaying the ultimate failure of this group. There has to be feelings of optimism to justify continuing on this path. Right now? The optimism is coming from the fact that the QB class is so strong in next years draft. That doesn't change if Mike Shanahan resigns. Nothing gets worse.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think I considered that at the time of the hire, and, well, I didn't think that was realistic then and I don't think it's realistic now.

But I think even if that was the original plan, I don't see how that's different from any other type of 5 year contract for the head coach. Sure, the original expectation is that you have a long term solution, but if you don't, then you go in another direction when the current one isn't feasible anymore.

I think if it was going to happen here for Mike or Kyle, we'd have some sort of positive identity 25 games in. Because the only identity that Mike has left is baffling press conferences, I think the premise that the clock is ticking is inevitable.

It wouldn't be the worst thing to give a third year to this group, but I don't know why you would if the feeling is that we're just delaying the ultimate failure of this group. There has to be feelings of optimism to justify continuing on this path. Right now? The optimism is coming from the fact that the QB class is so strong in next years draft. That doesn't change if Mike Shanahan resigns. Nothing gets worse.

I'm left scratching my head but my best guess as to why this is happening is because MS is doing is best to emulate Belichick. He doesn't want to give too much information about players, is aloof about who's starting, calls players out in an attempt to not call players out, is very vague about injuries in order to keep other teams guessing. But I don't think MS is as good as Belichick.

The only other option is to think MS is really not a good speaker, and has lost his mind and possibly doesn't know what he's doing. Unless he's got alzheimers which would answer why his statement are different form his sons at times and why he says some of the things he does then I have to go with the fact he's trying to with hold, hide, or keep from being made public information that we fans and the opponant really don't need to know.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by GMScud

I don't think Shanny has done a poor job with the draft selections he's made. Kerrigan, Jenkins, and Hankerson all seem like they'll be good players in this league. Perry Riley looks good, too. And Maurice Hurt is able to crack the lineup despite being a 7th rounder. He's brought in some decent talent.

However, I think his decisions at the QB position have been nothing short of disastrous, and he should bear the full blame. Also, with regard to the QB position and the draft, I think the net negative of both not selecting a QB (not even a developmental later round pick) and trading high picks for McNabb is a terrible gaffe.

Believe me I'm not happy that the team didn't draft a QB last year, but they didn't. Was it disasterous? I don't think so. We could look at this several different ways;

ie: they don't draft Kerrigan and opponants double Orakpo slowing our pass rush giving QB's all day to throw and pick us apart.

ie: the team drafts a QB but virtually no decent WR's to catch the ball and the ones we have run wrong routes... wait thats part of our problem now WR wise.

I don't think there was one QB in the bunch during MS's first draft that was really worth running out and taking or that would have been available when the Skins picked. Last year clearly Newton has turned out to be pretty good and I didn't think he would, other then that the others have been pretty quiet besides Dalton whom I wanted the team to pick.

Luck will be out of reach for the Skins, more then likely the Colts will take him unless something drastically happens while he's in college or the team simply doesn't think he will work out in their system. Word on the street is Miami's owner is infatuated with Luck, so if the Colts don't take him I'm pretty sure Miami will. Our best bet is to look at the rest and look at taking the most accurate WR available, hopefully he's mobile and can throw a deep ball. Mobility is a moot point though if KS is going to call plays that keep the QB in the pocket. So accuracy and deep ball is a must.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think the only difference between you and I is that I think the 2012 draft is too critical to leave to an administration that is just going to get whacked at midseason next year for lack of results. If a change is needed, we should make it with the intention of getting the right people in here to draft the next QB. I can't justify letting the Shanahan's pick a quarterback in the first round in a desperate attempt to salvage the mess they created.

Well lets look at it reasonably....

If MS takes a QB this year and bombs would DS fire him? I personally doubt it because MS still has 2 yrs left on his contract, but I've been wrong before.

But lets say for arguements sake the team does draft a QB and the team still does bad (most likely due to a lack of quality OL or backups, and decent WR's), and MS is fired..... more then likely the team would have to be just as bad or worse and not showing improvement so the team goes 4-12 last yr, this year 3-13, either another 3-13 or worse which I'd guess would give the Skins another top 5 pick for whoever DS desides to bring in as HC and giving said HC an opportunity to draft his QB for his system.

The good point in all this..... we either start getting better next year or MS is fired and we end up with 2 young hopefully talented QB's to develope for the future.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

The good point in all this..... we either start getting better next year or MS is fired and we end up with 2 young hopefully talented QB's to develope for the future.

Outside of Gibbs, we've been in this crappy position twice within the last 10 yrs.(the ol ball coach and Zorn). F-ing enough is enough already.

p.s. As someone else mentioned about Zorn, his 2 yr. record was 12-20, same as the ol' ball coach. Unless MS can rally the team and win 3 more games this year.....he is who his record says he is. This abysmal performance, and worst of all no upward trend, is all on him.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Outside of Gibbs, we've been in this crappy position twice within the last 10 yrs.(the ol ball coach and Zorn). F-ing enough is enough already.

p.s. As someone else mentioned about Zorn, his 2 yr. record was 12-20, same as the ol' ball coach. Unless MS can rally the team and win 3 more games this year.....he is who his record says he is. This abysmal performance, and worst of all no upward trend, is all on him.

I don't know what to say....

It's blatently obvious DS won't be able to please all fans at all times. But I was pretty sure most fans after the Zorn failure pretty much wanted a proven HC (and MS is) and wanted "consistancy". Simply throwing everything away yet again after 2yrs (this offseason) or after 3yrs is not, I would guess to be, "consistancy." We need to keep a coaching staff longer then 2-3 yrs, allow them to get the types of players for their system on the team, and keep a QB in the same scheme longer then 2 yrs. Why is P.Manning, E.Manning, Breese, Brady, etc. etc. so succesfull? because they stayed in the same system for more then 2 yrs.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I don't know what to say....

It's blatently obvious DS won't be able to please all fans at all times. But I was pretty sure most fans after the Zorn failure pretty much wanted a proven HC (and MS is) and wanted "consistancy". Simply throwing everything away yet again after 2yrs (this offseason) or after 3yrs is not, I would guess to be, "consistancy." We need to keep a coaching staff longer then 2-3 yrs, allow them to get the types of players for their system on the team, and keep a QB in the same scheme longer then 2 yrs. Why is P.Manning, E.Manning, Breese, Brady, etc. etc. so succesfull? because they stayed in the same system for more then 2 yrs.

I agreed with the MS hire. I'm not calling for his head....yet. If we're in the same boat this time next year and no significant philisophical changes are made then yes I'll be screaming for him to be gone too.

Agree we need consistency, but we don't need to be consistently bad. The reason the QBs you mention above are successful is because they're damn good QBs, not because of their "systems". The HC's of their teams have been intelligent in the way they scheme around their talents. Any of these guys would be successful in any system. We don't have a franchise QB and there's no guarantee we'll get one this off-season.

If you've got a fridge full of chicken and a pantry full of noodles, you don't make steak & potatoes....you make chicken soup.

Edit: I'll add this, I love my son with all my heart, I've coached him since he was young. I'd love nothing better than for him to be an OC while I was HC and leave a HC position and legacy for him to step into/continue....however parental feelings can cloud judgement. I wouldn't put him & I in the situation that MS & KS are in here, because when things weren't going right and changes needed to be made it would be ugly for us both.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I agreed with the MS hire. I'm not calling for his head....yet. If we're in the same boat this time next year and no significant philisophical changes are made then yes I'll be screaming for him to be gone too.

Agree we need consistency, but we don't need to be consistently bad. The reason the QBs you mention above are successful is because they're damn good QBs, not because of their "systems". The HC's of their teams have been intelligent in the way they scheme around their talents. Any of these guys would be successful in any system. We don't have a franchise QB and there's no guarantee we'll get one this off-season.

If you've got a fridge full of chicken and a pantry full of noodles, you don't make steak & potatoes....you make chicken soup.

Totally agree with you. But let me aske you then will any talented QB like Luck if the team was able to even reach to get him play well in this system next year or is there more fundamental changes across the board needed? or will MS/KS have to look for a cookie cutter QB for their system because not just any QB will work in their system? Clearly they can't just plug in any QB as we've seen Grossman and Beck are not working out and McNabb failed in the system also. You could argue that Grossman/Beck are just bad QB's, and McNabb was unwilling to change, but is it something else? I think you eluded to it... the coaching staff is not designing plays around the talents of the QB under center. I think we all know this.

So what has to change if we are in the same position next year at this time? KS fired? MS fired?

Listening to the radio today an ex player for Seattle was asked if this is the same system he played against when he played MS's Bronco's and the ex player said no. Basically he said the players are not playing like a MS team, mentioned the OL not blocking well and not seeing much cut blocking that MS likes to use. Which made me wonder..... is the OL coach not coaching like the OL coach did while MS was in Denver? If I recall our OL coach was not doing very well in San Fran either.... he probably was going to get fired.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I don't know what to say....

It's blatently obvious DS won't be able to please all fans at all times. But I was pretty sure most fans after the Zorn failure pretty much wanted a proven HC (and MS is) and wanted "consistancy". Simply throwing everything away yet again after 2yrs (this offseason) or after 3yrs is not, I would guess to be, "consistancy." We need to keep a coaching staff longer then 2-3 yrs, allow them to get the types of players for their system on the team, and keep a QB in the same scheme longer then 2 yrs. Why is P.Manning, E.Manning, Breese, Brady, etc. etc. so succesfull? because they stayed in the same system for more then 2 yrs.

Brady won the Super Bowl in his first year as a starter, and Brees was awesome in his first year in New Orleans. Those guys are so successful, because they're really good.

But the Giants were smart for sticking with Coughlin through some tough years (he can thank the Skins for that). It paid off with a Super Bowl. We should ride it out and let this staff play out their contract.

[sportscurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I don't know what to say....

It's blatently obvious DS won't be able to please all fans at all times. But I was pretty sure most fans after the Zorn failure pretty much wanted a proven HC (and MS is) and wanted "consistancy". Simply throwing everything away yet again after 2yrs (this offseason) or after 3yrs is not, I would guess to be, "consistancy." We need to keep a coaching staff longer then 2-3 yrs, allow them to get the types of players for their system on the team, and keep a QB in the same scheme longer then 2 yrs. Why is P.Manning, E.Manning, Breese, Brady, etc. etc. so succesfull? because they stayed in the same system for more then 2 yrs.

I agree completely that a consistent and long-term planned approach is the way to build a successful team.

However, I must depart from your commentary when you say that P. Manning, E. Manning, Brees, Brady etc. are successful because they stayed in the same system for more than 2 years.

I truly believe that P. Manning, E. Manning, Brees and Brady - - add Aaron Rodgers to this list too - - are successful first and foremost because of their innate talent level and their commitment to learn the game. They stay in the same system to a large extent because they make "the system they play in" a successful one. [That is a good example of a self-fulfilling prophecy.]

The Washington Redskins have not had a QB with the innate talent level of any one of those 5 QBs mentioned above since Sonny Jurgensen was in his prime. That was about 40 years ago...