Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)

[12thMan]

[QUOTE=kingerock]All I know is as much as I like Ramsey, if we win on Monday, it's all for moot. Just like anyone here, Gibbs and the Skins want to win./QUOTE]

Dude...and that's bottom f@#kin line.

[SUNRA]

By the way, we're leading in our division in week one. Philly just lost. 14-10. Lets go Skins its our year.

[kingerock]

Originally Posted by SUNRA

By the way, we're leading in our division in week one. Philly just lost. 14-10. Lets go Skins its our year.

That's the bottom line... we have a jump on Philly!!!

[Drift Reality]

Okay guys, I've had enough debate for one night. Before I crash out though, I want to leave you with a great read from 1990 - before the 'Skins won the Super Bowl in '91.

I just thought it interesting in light of the current situation.

For Gibbs, Great QB Hasn't Come to Pass by Thomas Boswell


Maybe it's Joe Gibbs's curse or his legacy to be remembered as the best NFL coach who never had a great quarterback.

Play name association and it only requires a blink to hook names such as Tom Landry, Bud Grant, Bill Walsh, Chuck Noll, Vince Lombardi and Paul Brown with the legends who threw the ball for them: Roger Staubach, Fran Tarkenton, Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, Bart Starr and Otto Graham. Weeb Ewbank reached Canton courtesy of Johnny Unitas and Joe Namath. Don Shula has had Unitas, Bob Griese and Dan Marino.

Gibbs has had Joe Theismann. And, though he was pretty spry for a couple of years, that's just not the same. And, of course, Doug Williams had his moments of glory, especially when he helped the Redskins crush Denver in the Super Bowl in 1988 and won the MVP award.

It's probably psychologically impossible for an NFL coach, especially one who works 110 of the 168 hours in a week, to wake up on his office cot in the morning and say to himself, "At least 10 teams in this league have a better quarterback than any of mine will ever be."

First, Gibbs became infatuated with Jay Schroeder. Then Mark Rypien. Then Stan Humphries. And now it's Cary Conklin. Every year since Joe Theismann's leg was broken, Gibbs has become smitten with a big, strong, new, young quarterback. They're nearly identical long shot mid-round draft choices.

Some are tough guys. Some throw the ball through a wall. Some have quick feet. Some are smart. Some are leaders. But none of them is "All of the above."

What makes the irony doubly rich, and doubly annoying to Gibbs, is that he made his reputation as an offensive thinker and as a teacher of passers, especially Dan Fouts. With the Redskins, Gibbs has assembled and maintained The Hogs. He's created Riggo Drills and H-backs. He's elevated men-in-motion and formation shifts to an art form. He's spotted enough superior receivers for a Fun Bunch and a Posse.

It's as though Gibbs has spent a decade assembling all the parts of a Frankenstein Monster but has never been able to throw the switch and give it life. What would this man do if he ever had a Hall of Fame quarterback? His '83 team already holds the NFL scoring record of 541 points.

Because Gibbs's desire for a great passer is so deep, his young apprentices operate under a severe burden. Their opportunity is enormous; after all, even Williams in the latter stages of his career won a Super Bowl with Gibbs. But Gibbs's expectation for improvement and performance are high too. With Gibbs, when you stop getting better, you start disappearing.

Schroeder left town with bad feelings between he and Gibbs. Now, the whole town knows that Humphries has lost favor with the coach and may be traded in the next month. At the moment, Conklin, on "injured reserve" for four weeks with a "knee" injury, is the object of Gibbs's fantasies. Meanwhile, Rypien, the precariously positioned starter, is the man on the hot seat who'd better produce.

"I like Cary Conklin very much," said Gibbs yesterday. "He has done nothing but impress me. He has a very bright future. He has a lot of tools. Everything I've seen from Cary, I like. He had a great camp. I told him today how I felt about him. I think that's what he wanted to hear."

Within the last five years, you could have substituted the names Schroeder, Rypien and Humphries for Conklin in almost identical Gibbs bouquets.

As for Rypien, who spent two years on injured reserve awaiting Gibbs's tap on the shoulder, this is clearly his season to be spectacular or prepare to be eased out of the picture. "Hopefully, this is Rip's year to be healthy and take off," said Gibbs yesterday. "Mark has had [four] years to get ready. Now's the time to step up . . . You coach 'em, surround 'em with the absolute best [players] you can. But they need to seize the moment. It's their responsibility to step up and take it."

Because the Redskins, in Gibbs's tenure, have never been a bad team, the club has never been in position to draft a potential franchise quarterback such as Troy Aikman or Jeff George. As for trades, dream on. Nobody deals a premier quarterback for any price.

"I think our fans will get jacked up and support Mark, knowing he's our number one quarterback," said Gibbs. "But will he be booed [sometimes]? He'll have to deal with that. In Washington, it's when he wins a Super Bowl that everybody will think he's done what he should."

That's not just an astronomical standard set by fickle fans or a demanding owner. That's Gibbs's standard too. Since he was hired in 1981, only San Francisco has had a better record than Washington's 113-55.

The Redskins are also second-best in the NFL over the last 10 years in home record (.747), road record (.600), interconference record and record in the season's final month (.775). Nobody has as good a playoff winning percentage.

Now, the Redskins begin what has been an annual agony of quarterback analysis and maturation. What Schroeder and, apparently, Humphries have been deemed incapable of doing, Rypien will be given one more chance to create. With Conklin looking over his shoulder.

Sometimes, an entire town or team can rally around an old or limited quarterback. It's happened with Billy Kilmer and Williams in Washington and with Joe Kapp and Jim Plunkett elsewhere. However, such a generous fate is unlikely to await any young Redskins quarterback. In part because of Gibbs's dreams of greatness, a different and more demanding tone has set around the Redskins.

"In the NFL, it's like familiarity breeds contempt," said Gibbs. "The fans boo the number one guy and root for number two."

Joe Gibbs isn't an antsy fan. But when it comes to quarterbacks, he has to fight the temptation to act like one. So far, especially in the case of Rypien, Gibbs has shown remarkable patience. Maybe that's because he knows better than anyone else that he has little choice. He has been, and will probably long remain, the Hall of Fame coach with no Hall of Fame quarterback.

[Joe Knows...]

Originally Posted by Drift Reality

Okay guys, I've had enough debate for one night. Before I crash out though, I want to leave you with a great read from 1990 - before the 'Skins won the Super Bowl in '91.

I just thought it interesting in light of the current situation.

For Gibbs, Great QB Hasn't Come to Pass by Thomas Boswell


Maybe it's Joe Gibbs's curse or his legacy to be remembered as the best NFL coach who never had a great quarterback.

Play name association and it only requires a blink to hook names such as Tom Landry, Bud Grant, Bill Walsh, Chuck Noll, Vince Lombardi and Paul Brown with the legends who threw the ball for them: Roger Staubach, Fran Tarkenton, Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, Bart Starr and Otto Graham. Weeb Ewbank reached Canton courtesy of Johnny Unitas and Joe Namath. Don Shula has had Unitas, Bob Griese and Dan Marino.

Gibbs has had Joe Theismann. And, though he was pretty spry for a couple of years, that's just not the same. And, of course, Doug Williams had his moments of glory, especially when he helped the Redskins crush Denver in the Super Bowl in 1988 and won the MVP award.

It's probably psychologically impossible for an NFL coach, especially one who works 110 of the 168 hours in a week, to wake up on his office cot in the morning and say to himself, "At least 10 teams in this league have a better quarterback than any of mine will ever be."

First, Gibbs became infatuated with Jay Schroeder. Then Mark Rypien. Then Stan Humphries. And now it's Cary Conklin. Every year since Joe Theismann's leg was broken, Gibbs has become smitten with a big, strong, new, young quarterback. They're nearly identical long shot mid-round draft choices.

Some are tough guys. Some throw the ball through a wall. Some have quick feet. Some are smart. Some are leaders. But none of them is "All of the above."

What makes the irony doubly rich, and doubly annoying to Gibbs, is that he made his reputation as an offensive thinker and as a teacher of passers, especially Dan Fouts. With the Redskins, Gibbs has assembled and maintained The Hogs. He's created Riggo Drills and H-backs. He's elevated men-in-motion and formation shifts to an art form. He's spotted enough superior receivers for a Fun Bunch and a Posse.

It's as though Gibbs has spent a decade assembling all the parts of a Frankenstein Monster but has never been able to throw the switch and give it life. What would this man do if he ever had a Hall of Fame quarterback? His '83 team already holds the NFL scoring record of 541 points.

Because Gibbs's desire for a great passer is so deep, his young apprentices operate under a severe burden. Their opportunity is enormous; after all, even Williams in the latter stages of his career won a Super Bowl with Gibbs. But Gibbs's expectation for improvement and performance are high too. With Gibbs, when you stop getting better, you start disappearing.

Schroeder left town with bad feelings between he and Gibbs. Now, the whole town knows that Humphries has lost favor with the coach and may be traded in the next month. At the moment, Conklin, on "injured reserve" for four weeks with a "knee" injury, is the object of Gibbs's fantasies. Meanwhile, Rypien, the precariously positioned starter, is the man on the hot seat who'd better produce.

"I like Cary Conklin very much," said Gibbs yesterday. "He has done nothing but impress me. He has a very bright future. He has a lot of tools. Everything I've seen from Cary, I like. He had a great camp. I told him today how I felt about him. I think that's what he wanted to hear."

Within the last five years, you could have substituted the names Schroeder, Rypien and Humphries for Conklin in almost identical Gibbs bouquets.

As for Rypien, who spent two years on injured reserve awaiting Gibbs's tap on the shoulder, this is clearly his season to be spectacular or prepare to be eased out of the picture. "Hopefully, this is Rip's year to be healthy and take off," said Gibbs yesterday. "Mark has had [four] years to get ready. Now's the time to step up . . . You coach 'em, surround 'em with the absolute best [players] you can. But they need to seize the moment. It's their responsibility to step up and take it."

Because the Redskins, in Gibbs's tenure, have never been a bad team, the club has never been in position to draft a potential franchise quarterback such as Troy Aikman or Jeff George. As for trades, dream on. Nobody deals a premier quarterback for any price.

"I think our fans will get jacked up and support Mark, knowing he's our number one quarterback," said Gibbs. "But will he be booed [sometimes]? He'll have to deal with that. In Washington, it's when he wins a Super Bowl that everybody will think he's done what he should."

That's not just an astronomical standard set by fickle fans or a demanding owner. That's Gibbs's standard too. Since he was hired in 1981, only San Francisco has had a better record than Washington's 113-55.

The Redskins are also second-best in the NFL over the last 10 years in home record (.747), road record (.600), interconference record and record in the season's final month (.775). Nobody has as good a playoff winning percentage.

Now, the Redskins begin what has been an annual agony of quarterback analysis and maturation. What Schroeder and, apparently, Humphries have been deemed incapable of doing, Rypien will be given one more chance to create. With Conklin looking over his shoulder.

Sometimes, an entire town or team can rally around an old or limited quarterback. It's happened with Billy Kilmer and Williams in Washington and with Joe Kapp and Jim Plunkett elsewhere. However, such a generous fate is unlikely to await any young Redskins quarterback. In part because of Gibbs's dreams of greatness, a different and more demanding tone has set around the Redskins.

"In the NFL, it's like familiarity breeds contempt," said Gibbs. "The fans boo the number one guy and root for number two."

Joe Gibbs isn't an antsy fan. But when it comes to quarterbacks, he has to fight the temptation to act like one. So far, especially in the case of Rypien, Gibbs has shown remarkable patience. Maybe that's because he knows better than anyone else that he has little choice. He has been, and will probably long remain, the Hall of Fame coach with no Hall of Fame quarterback.

That's a great article. Thank you for posting it! It really sheds some light on the issue. And that is that now matter who is under center, Gibbs expects you to play smart football or else you won't play for him. And the end result is winning.

After all, that same year we went on a roll and almost went undefeated... at least we were for most of the season. And Mark Brunell was the MVP that year. It was also a year when the offensive line didn't allow sacks.

The offensive line of this year is starting to remind me of the 1991 offensive line. They're not quite their yet (like letting Ramsey get closelined), but at times I see flashes of that greatness.

And that's another thing that bugs me from what I've seen from Ramsey this year. There's been times where he's had all day to throw, not a defender in sight, yet he still did one of 2 bad things: he either took a sack or threw it into coverage.

THIS YEAR (I can't stress that enough since it is a whole new year and players are better prepared & trained with the offense) I've seen Brunell either throw the ball out of bounds, or take off and run in that tight coverage situation.

[Drift Reality]

I just thought the article was interesting in the concept that Gibbs has historically been neurotic about his quarterbacks but has always won nevertheless. I think he actually likes to pit them against one another to see who is the most mentally strong.

To be honest, Ramsey constantly begging to be traded everytime he is demoted isn't the way you impress Gibbs.

If Ramsey wanted to impress Gibbs, he would keep his mouth shut, focus on cutting down on turnovers and keep working hard until his next opportunity comes.

[12thMan]

....and it wasn't just his hamstring, he had a bad elbow as well.

[VishsSkins]

Loved reading that article of the old days. Gibbs will get it done this time around too.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Okay, so our pass protection is supposedly better, our wideouts are supposedly better, our running game is supposedly better, our scheme is supposedly better, our defense is just as good. Does that mean if the Redskins stink, people can't defend Brunell by saying it was someone else's fault?

[SUNRA]

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Okay, so our pass protection is supposedly better, our wideouts are supposedly better, our running game is supposedly better, our scheme is supposedly better, our defense is just as good. Does that mean if the Redskins stink, people can't defend Brunell by saying it was someone else's fault?[/QUOTE

NO. Place the blame where it belongs. If Brunell sucks. If Portis fumbles. If Antonio Brown fumbles or if bad clock management causes us another game we ar well within our right to take thier heads.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by SUNRA

NO. Place the blame where it belongs. If Brunell sucks. If Portis fumbles. If Antonio Brown fumbles or if bad clock management causes us another game we ar well within our right to take thier heads.

I may be wrong, but I recall that you wouldn't admit that he sucked through week 10 of last year. If so, do you still feel that way?

[illdefined]

and if Brunell rocks next week, it doesn't mean Ramsey wouldn't have either. who knows how Brunell would have played the first 15 minutes of the season against a fresh Bears defense. Ramsey did *not* remotely get a real chance this season period. the chance Brunell *lost* and Ramsey won last season.

[JWsleep]

Questions:

1. Is brunnell really better than last year? He looked much better in preseason--everyone, on this board and elsewhere else saw it and it was much discussed. If that player shows up on Monday, then the substance, if not the style, of the move will be acceptable. We'll know soon.

2. Will Ramsey EVER learn to read NFL defenses? This is, I believe, the root of the problem. He misreads and throws INTs. Or he can't find his hot read and throws an INT. Or he he can't find anyone, and takes a sack, and maybe fumbles as well--remember, we've questioned here before whether he holds the ball too long. He does. Gibbs can see this, as can anyone else. PR makes his best throws when given LOTS of time. Then he guns it somewhere. But Ds know this and blitz. That makes things difficult. Sometimes Ramsey gets comfortable and looks good, but then he gets hit or confused, and trouble happens. I like the kid--and his good moments are a serious tease. But this is the truth. Maybe he'll get better, and I would have stuck with him, especially after naming him the starter (the REAL MISTAKE HERE, IMO). But he hasn't shown it yet. And Gibbs sees him every practice; GIbbs watches every film; Gibbs knows about QBs.

3. Can Brunnell stay healthy all year? No way, IMO. He's just too old.

4. Who plays if Brunnell goes down? For all of Gibbs mistrust of PR, I very much doubt it's Campbell. So we're gonna need PR to calm down and ease up.

5. Who is Mort's source on the claim that Pat wants to be traded? Was it Pat? His Agent? Unnamed sources in Redskin park? Very curious.

6. How will the team react? I think they'll be fine. Moss and Patten have been muted in their comments on Ramsey. Jansen is his buddy, but no way that means he plays with any less fire for Brunnell. Portis looked great with Brunnell, and has been a leader anyway.

7. How will Gibbs react if Mark plays like he did last year? Will he pull Mark and play revolving QBs? Or will he go down with the Brunnell ship, tarnishing his legacy as he goes? How will the Danny react? This is the nightmare scenario that Dr Z, Pasta, and every other anti-skin pundit have been waiting for.

Hold tight, lads. These are the times that try men's (and women's) souls.

It's always darkest before the dawn.

[jdlea]

One thing I can say in Mark Brunell's defense is that he has won more recently than Joe Gibbs.

[Joe Knows...]

Originally Posted by JWsleep

Questions:

1. Is brunnell really better than last year? He looked much better in preseason--everyone, on this board and elsewhere else saw it and it was much discussed. If that player shows up on Monday, then the substance, if not the style, of the move will be acceptable. We'll know soon.

2. Will Ramsey EVER learn to read NFL defenses? This is, I believe, the root of the problem. He misreads and throws INTs. Or he can't find his hot read and throws an INT. Or he he can't find anyone, and takes a sack, and maybe fumbles as well--remember, we've questioned here before whether he holds the ball too long. He does. Gibbs can see this, as can anyone else. PR makes his best throws when given LOTS of time. Then he guns it somewhere. But Ds know this and blitz. That makes things difficult. Sometimes Ramsey gets comfortable and looks good, but then he gets hit or confused, and trouble happens. I like the kid--and his good moments are a serious tease. But this is the truth. Maybe he'll get better, and I would have stuck with him, especially after naming him the starter (the REAL MISTAKE HERE, IMO). But he hasn't shown it yet. And Gibbs sees him every practice; GIbbs watches every film; Gibbs knows about QBs.

3. Can Brunnell stay healthy all year? No way, IMO. He's just too old.

4. Who plays if Brunnell goes down? For all of Gibbs mistrust of PR, I very much doubt it's Campbell. So we're gonna need PR to calm down and ease up.

5. Who is Mort's source on the claim that Pat wants to be traded? Was it Pat? His Agent? Unnamed sources in Redskin park? Very curious.

6. How will the team react? I think they'll be fine. Moss and Patten have been muted in their comments on Ramsey. Jansen is his buddy, but no way that means he plays with any less fire for Brunnell. Portis looked great with Brunnell, and has been a leader anyway.

7. How will Gibbs react if Mark plays like he did last year? Will he pull Mark and play revolving QBs? Or will he go down with the Brunnell ship, tarnishing his legacy as he goes? How will the Danny react? This is the nightmare scenario that Dr Z, Pasta, and every other anti-skin pundit have been waiting for.

Hold tight, lads. These are the times that try men's (and women's) souls.

It's always darkest before the dawn.

Finally, a level headed wise old fan.

Those are all excellent points and questions.