Give Props to Brunell

That Guy · 11-07-2006, 10:41 PM

right, and you throw more when you're behind, which doesn't happen when you're running and playing good defense. that's what the disclaimer is there for, but it's just showing that stats are a bit misleading on their own, since correlation == causation seems to be how the defense of brunell has been argued here, and it's just not logically sound when you can see the quality of the in game performances compared to the stat lines.

but it's still somewhat interesting how less is more, even before the end of the year, with regards to brunell.

RobH4413 · 11-07-2006, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

right, and you throw more when you're behind, which doesn't happen when you're running and playing good defense. that's what the disclaimer is there for, but it's just showing that stats are a bit misleading on their own, since correlation == causation seems to be how the defense of brunell has been argued here, and it's just not logically sound when you can see the quality of the in game performances compared to the stat lines.

but it's still somewhat interesting how less is more, even before the end of the year, with regards to brunell.

I agree with you about the stat line. I'm not one to jump on that bandwagon and I don't usually defend Brunell with stats, and when I do a disclaimer is attached. I just think we all need to back off Brunell this week, because IMO he's our best chance to win one game at a time.

I think we'll win the majority of our games when utilizing our running game to its max. potential. Look at how effective the play-action was against a very good cowboy defense. It just goes without saying the impact Portis and co. has on this team, both in the running and passing game.

That Guy · 11-07-2006, 11:06 PM

yeah, our run blocking has to be better than it was vs dallas though. 1 yard here, 2 yards there. I mean, portis made a couple wrong cuts, but the OL (and pulling guards) blocked the wrong guy a lot of times from re-watching the game.

RobH4413 · 11-07-2006, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

yeah, our run blocking has to be better than it was vs dallas though. 1 yard here, 2 yards there. I mean, portis made a couple wrong cuts, but the OL (and pulling guards) blocked the wrong guy a lot of times from re-watching the game.

Totally agree, but at least it keeps the defense loyal to the run, and thus opening up some play action.

When saunders was just busting pass pass pass out of his rear end, kind of made little/no sense... you set the pass up w/ the run, not vice versa.

That Guy · 11-07-2006, 11:31 PM

well i showed the not as often and it was a VERY stark contrast. i only used him and peyton cause of the large time investment it takes to go over the game logs and ensure accuracy, but brunell's stats were VERY bad (% deep, attempts deep, completions deep, deep int % etc) when compared, even taking into account that peyton is simply better than anyone else.

RobH4413 · 11-07-2006, 11:35 PM

and I prefer someone being nit-picky then for me to walk around ignorant...

so no beef there.

RobH4413 · 11-07-2006, 11:50 PM

I really really really want that spread sheet link... comon... someone has it..

I know they do...

why am I too dumb to find it.

I'm web savy, but not warpath savy.

That Guy · 11-08-2006, 12:25 AM

as for why to bench him - he's not going to get better and we're probably not going to the playoffs, so seeing if campbell can play and giving him experience is in the best long term interests of the franchise.

brunell has been nothing but average. when we needed him in the playoffs, he was MIA. when we had a great defense he was terrible, now that we have a terrible defense, and he's just not good enough to overcome that. his W-L record (which is a valid stat) isn't good, and when we need a play to win, he often takes the sack/inc instead (TB, DEN, KC, etc). he has the worst record BY FAR in 4th quarter comebacks (something on the order of 8-43 - beyond horrible) and that's WITH very favorable conditions (down by less than 7 entering the 4th and failing to win = loss, but coming back from ANY number = win). I've never said he's the ONLY problem, or that he's the BIGGEST problem, just that he's a bottleneck (spending too much time watching the rush vs looking downfield) and we have possibly have the longterm solution in house, but it's important to know whether JC is truly the guy or if we're still looking. before building a team, it's important to be sure that the trigger man is more than just average, and capable of a clutch play more often than what we've seen lately.

14-13 was great, but for brunell, those kinds of plays have been very few and far between across his entire career. it's not a big shocker that he is what he is, only slower now.

RobH4413 · 11-08-2006, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

as for why to bench him - he's not going to get better and we're probably not going to the playoffs, so seeing if campbell can play and giving him experience is in the best long term interests of the franchise.

brunell has been nothing but average. when we needed him in the playoffs, he was MIA. when we had a great defense he was terrible, now that we have a terrible defense, and he's just not good enough to overcome that. his W-L record (which is a valid stat) isn't good, and when we need a play to win, he often takes the sack/inc instead (TB, DEN, KC, etc). he has the worst record BY FAR in 4th quarter comebacks (something on the order of 8-43 - beyond horrible) and that's WITH very favorable conditions (down by less than 7 entering the 4th and failing to win = loss, but coming back from ANY number = win). I've never said he's the ONLY problem, or that he's the BIGGEST problem, just that he's a bottleneck (spending too much time watching the rush vs looking downfield) and we have possibly have the longterm solution in house, but it's important to know whether JC is truly the guy or if we're still looking. before building a team, it's important to be sure that the trigger man is more than just average, and capable of a clutch play more often than what we've seen lately.

14-13 was great, but for brunell, those kinds of plays have been very few and far between across his entire career. it's not a big shocker that he is what he is, only slower now.

Philisophically speaking.... you play the guy that wins your next game. One game at a time. We're one game behind in the wild race. Theres no need to go "big picture" on us right now.

We put Campbell in, he throws picks (that happends to young QB's) and with our defense we can't afford that. We'll lose games with a young QB making mistakes. In-experience usually means turnovers, and our defense cannot win with that at stake. Brunell has not been playing badly as of recent, and if your a coach, your going to put your smart game manager in at QB. You cannot think long term in the middle of the season, and it's just not going to happen.

There really is no debate... JC will not start. We can all look at this when the season is over and say this and that, but right here, right now, we're making the only decision we can, and IMO it's the right one.

That Guy · 11-08-2006, 12:34 AM

that said, this year he hasn't been helped AT ALL by the play calling. he NEEDS shotgun, he NEEDS max protect, he NEEDS a couple audibles. that's WHY he looked good last year, and without them, it looks like he's playing with an arm behind his back.

he played well this week, he played well vs JAC, but I haven't thought much of any of his other games this year, and i've been even more unimpressed with saunders, who's calling plays like he has HoF O linemen and no need to call anything besides screens. gibbs/musgrave 05 was a much better system for this talent.

the chemistry on the defense and a bad offseason by the FO, and what appears to be injured or just under-performing OL (jansen, thomas, dockery) are also big concerns. punter/kicker are pretty shaky too, and while we don't have the pick to fix kicker, we'll be more than able to get sep or fields with one of our 2nd day picks. fields has lechler like leg strength. I mean, there's plenty of blame to go around. but if we're not going all the way, we should do everything possible to get there as soon as possible, which includes getting the young guys ready and evaluating current and future talent as closely as possible.

GTripp0012 · 11-09-2006, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

gibbs/musgrave 05 was a much better system for this talent.

No arguement here, in fact this is a great point. Saunders' system seems to be pretty universal, but its a far cry from the Gibbs/Musgrave system which taylored to Brunells strengths. I mean how often these days do you see Brunell throw that godly accurate touch pass? Pretty much never.

That Guy · 11-08-2006, 01:36 AM

that's nice, but unless we go 7-1, it's over for real, and the chances aren't great. right now brunell might be the best choice, but through the first 8 games, i'm not sure he was.

and yeah, campbell is going to throw ints, but if he's throwing more TDs and taking less sacks, it might not be as bad as predicted.

i can't possibly seeing us go 3-0 or 4-0 in the playoffs with this defense... hopefully they shore it up, and i know gibbs wins more late, but for the cost and hype, i need to see a lot more progress real fast.

VTSkins897 · 11-08-2006, 05:34 PM

i voted 'great'

oh well

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 11-08-2006, 08:32 PM

Isn't this debate tired yet? We're at 270 posts and counting.

RobH4413 · 11-08-2006, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Isn't this debate tired yet? We're at 270 posts and counting.

Yeah seriously....

But atleast it's civil.

Personally, I stopped reading them once they got too long for my ADD.

View Poll Results: How well did Brunell play against the Cowboys?
Great	14	8.81%
Good	48	30.19%
Average	81	50.94%
Sub-Par	12	7.55%
Horrible	4	2.52%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

11-07-2006, 10:41 PM	#1
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,620	Re: Give Props to Brunell right, and you throw more when you're behind, which doesn't happen when you're running and playing good defense. that's what the disclaimer is there for, but it's just showing that stats are a bit misleading on their own, since correlation == causation seems to be how the defense of brunell has been argued here, and it's just not logically sound when you can see the quality of the in game performances compared to the stat lines. but it's still somewhat interesting how less is more, even before the end of the year, with regards to brunell.

11-07-2006, 11:06 PM	#3
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,620	Re: Give Props to Brunell yeah, our run blocking has to be better than it was vs dallas though. 1 yard here, 2 yards there. I mean, portis made a couple wrong cuts, but the OL (and pulling guards) blocked the wrong guy a lot of times from re-watching the game.

11-07-2006, 11:31 PM	#5
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,620	Re: Give Props to Brunell well i showed the not as often and it was a VERY stark contrast. i only used him and peyton cause of the large time investment it takes to go over the game logs and ensure accuracy, but brunell's stats were VERY bad (% deep, attempts deep, completions deep, deep int % etc) when compared, even taking into account that peyton is simply better than anyone else.

11-07-2006, 11:35 PM	#6
RobH4413 Wildcard Bitches Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bethesda, MD Age: 40 Posts: 2,638	Re: Give Props to Brunell and I prefer someone being nit-picky then for me to walk around ignorant... so no beef there. __________________ This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps!

11-07-2006, 11:50 PM	#7
RobH4413 Wildcard Bitches Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bethesda, MD Age: 40 Posts: 2,638	Re: Give Props to Brunell I really really really want that spread sheet link... comon... someone has it.. I know they do... why am I too dumb to find it. I'm web savy, but not warpath savy. __________________ This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps!

11-08-2006, 12:25 AM	#8
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,620	Re: Give Props to Brunell as for why to bench him - he's not going to get better and we're probably not going to the playoffs, so seeing if campbell can play and giving him experience is in the best long term interests of the franchise. brunell has been nothing but average. when we needed him in the playoffs, he was MIA. when we had a great defense he was terrible, now that we have a terrible defense, and he's just not good enough to overcome that. his W-L record (which is a valid stat) isn't good, and when we need a play to win, he often takes the sack/inc instead (TB, DEN, KC, etc). he has the worst record BY FAR in 4th quarter comebacks (something on the order of 8-43 - beyond horrible) and that's WITH very favorable conditions (down by less than 7 entering the 4th and failing to win = loss, but coming back from ANY number = win). I've never said he's the ONLY problem, or that he's the BIGGEST problem, just that he's a bottleneck (spending too much time watching the rush vs looking downfield) and we have possibly have the longterm solution in house, but it's important to know whether JC is truly the guy or if we're still looking. before building a team, it's important to be sure that the trigger man is more than just average, and capable of a clutch play more often than what we've seen lately. 14-13 was great, but for brunell, those kinds of plays have been very few and far between across his entire career. it's not a big shocker that he is what he is, only slower now.

11-08-2006, 12:34 AM	#10
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,620	Re: Give Props to Brunell that said, this year he hasn't been helped AT ALL by the play calling. he NEEDS shotgun, he NEEDS max protect, he NEEDS a couple audibles. that's WHY he looked good last year, and without them, it looks like he's playing with an arm behind his back. he played well this week, he played well vs JAC, but I haven't thought much of any of his other games this year, and i've been even more unimpressed with saunders, who's calling plays like he has HoF O linemen and no need to call anything besides screens. gibbs/musgrave 05 was a much better system for this talent. the chemistry on the defense and a bad offseason by the FO, and what appears to be injured or just under-performing OL (jansen, thomas, dockery) are also big concerns. punter/kicker are pretty shaky too, and while we don't have the pick to fix kicker, we'll be more than able to get sep or fields with one of our 2nd day picks. fields has lechler like leg strength. I mean, there's plenty of blame to go around. but if we're not going all the way, we should do everything possible to get there as soon as possible, which includes getting the young guys ready and evaluating current and future talent as closely as possible.

11-08-2006, 01:36 AM	#12
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,620	Re: Give Props to Brunell that's nice, but unless we go 7-1, it's over for real, and the chances aren't great. right now brunell might be the best choice, but through the first 8 games, i'm not sure he was. and yeah, campbell is going to throw ints, but if he's throwing more TDs and taking less sacks, it might not be as bad as predicted. i can't possibly seeing us go 3-0 or 4-0 in the playoffs with this defense... hopefully they shore it up, and i know gibbs wins more late, but for the cost and hype, i need to see a lot more progress real fast.

11-08-2006, 05:34 PM	#13
VTSkins897 Impact Rookie Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Age: 42 Posts: 890	Re: Give Props to Brunell i voted 'great' oh well

11-08-2006, 08:32 PM	#14
Sheriff Gonna Getcha Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 46 Posts: 8,317	Re: Give Props to Brunell Isn't this debate tired yet? We're at 270 posts and counting.

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