Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I just don't agree with this at all.

When Gibbs had Joe Theismann in hand, he acquired Jay Schroeder. When he had Jay Schroeder in hand, he acquired Doug Williams. When he had Doug Williams in hand, he acquired Mark Rypien.

Gibbs has always felt the need to have two quality quarterbacks on the roster. He tried to do that last year by bringing Brunell in to join Ramsey. If anything, the Campbell draft pick is an indictment of Mark Brunell; I think Gibbs now realizes that Brunell is a bum (despite what he says publicly).

I think Gibbs just saw something special in Campbell and decided to go get him. Gibbs likes to have two good QBs, and he's just going to play the best one. Simple as that.

Your missing the point, and the point is none of those players were drafted higher than the 3rd rd, they were projects that Beathard took a chance on that they could be developed, a far cry from what we gave up to get Campbell, you also can't compare Gibbs first tenure to today's NFL we now have a salary cap to contend with, you do not give up what we gave up for a first rd QB to make him a project, period!

Basically if Gibbs had any confidence in Ramsey there is no way we take Campbell where we did, what is the point? To have 2 bonified starters on our roster to watch Campbell just sit and eat up our salary cap? Tell me what's the plan for Campbell if Gibbs believes in Ramsey? I would like to know the thinking behind that one? As I said from day 1 the Campbell pick was just plain stupid no matter how you look at it.

If Gibbs believes in Ramsey than all he should have been looking for is a #2 backup to groom, instead we now have neither, Campbell is 3 season's away, and Brunell another Gibbs move well we all saw how that panned out.

My question is this, what happens if Ramsey goes down this season? Does anyone think Campbell can step in? Don't make me laugh at that one, so I guess we are 1 hit away from Brunell and a high 1st rd draft pick next year, oh wait we don't have one, WONDERFUL!

[BrudLee]

Originally Posted by offiss

Your missing the point, and the point is none of those players were drafted higher than the 3rd rd, they were projects that Beathard took a chance on that they could be developed, a far cry from what we gave up to get Campbell, you also can't compare Gibbs first tenure to today's NFL we now have a salary cap to contend with, you do not give up what we gave up for a first rd QB to make him a project, period!

Basically if Gibbs had any confidence in Ramsey there is no way we take Campbell where we did, what is the point? To have 2 bonified starters on our roster to watch Campbell just sit and eat up our salary cap? Tell me what's the plan for Campbell if Gibbs believes in Ramsey? I would like to know the thinking behind that one? As I said from day 1 the Campbell pick was just plain stupid no matter how you look at it.

If Gibbs believes in Ramsey than all he should have been looking for is a #2 backup to groom, instead we now have neither, Campbell is 3 season's away, and Brunell another Gibbs move well we all saw how that panned out.

My question is this, what happens if Ramsey goes down this season? Does anyone think Campbell can step in? Don't make me laugh at that one, so I guess we are 1 hit away from Brunell and a high 1st rd draft pick next year, oh wait we don't have one, WONDERFUL!

offiss -
We're going to have to agree to disagree. Campbell isn't three years from being ready - I don't think any player is that far. if he isn't ready to play next year, he likely won't ever be. To arbitrarily have him ready in 2008 seems capricious. (I just found a thesaurus).

To say that 2005 is Ramsey's year, despite no history of success (and I'm a huge Ramsey fan) and not be prepared to be wrong would be grossly irresponsible. Brunell will be gone next year, which gives you a choice of Ramsey (whether he's successful or not), a free agent (who will have to adjust to a new offense), or a rookie (who will need to learn not only the offense, but adjust to the speed of the league) - unless you draft a player to learn for a year. The cost was high, true, but if Ramsey can't make the leap this year, what is the alternative?

[sportscurmudgeon]

Take the names out of this and tell me how outrageous this thinking is:


Last year's defensive unit - ranked in the top 3 in the league - lost their starting MLB and one of their starting CBs to free agency. Their starting SS has been absent for all team workouts since last season ended and is facing trial on felony charges in September 2005 - pending motions to put off the trial date. The projected replacement for the lost MLB is someone who was injured for all of last season; the projected replacement for the lost CB is a player who was injured for much of last season or possibly a high round draftee who is currently injured. Based on those happenings, the team has not had the kind of offseason that it might have wished to have.

Last year's offensive unit was less than productive and had a quarterback controversy for about half the season. After announcing that the QB who finished out last year was the starter this year, the team went out and spent a lot of captial just before the draft to pick another QB. Might this be the start of another QB controversy? It could happen - - and QB controversies don't usually make offensive units a whole lot better.

[BigSKINBauer]

well profootball weekly also gives us no love----Says we had "nightmare offseason"
http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW...holm070605.htm
The Redskins are on the verge of capping one of the roughest offseasons in recent memory. Of course, in retrospect, most Redskins offseasons are bad; they just usually look good as they are happening. Maybe change is good, but in this case, most people agreed that the team suffered some key losses and was unable to get much immediate help. And trumping everything has been the Sean Taylor saga, which will continue to haunt the club through the season.

Now first-round pick CB Carlos Rogers was discovered to have a stress fracture in his right foot and a bone bruise in his right ankle — injuries that will force the Redskins’ top pick to miss the start of camp. The injury likely will set him back from challenging for a starting spot, meaning Walt Harris and Artrell Hawkins are the team’s Nos. 2 and 3 corners for now.

With Taylor’s status up in the air and Rogers out of the picture for the start of camp, a secondary that was an underrated and vital piece of the team’s defensive success last season will be knocked down a peg or two. And this is on a unit that also lost CB Fred Smoot and MLB Antonio Pierce and failed to acquire another defensive lineman. One Redskins defensive coach swears this offseason that Phillip Daniels is going to have a great year, but that’s far from a certainty, seeing as how he missed 11 games last season and hasn’t had more than 5½ sacks in a season since 2001.
[later in the article]
Good to see that all 255 rookie draft picks made it to the mandatory Rookie Symposium this offseason. Though it’s not a harbinger of future failure, past absentees include Ryan Leaf and Sean Taylor.

Does anyone besides me think that Chad Morton is not only going to make the Patriots' roster but also run back at least one kickoff/punt for a touchdown? Two years ago he was the most coveted free-agent returner in the league before he got "Redskinned" (what happens to good players when they go to Washington).

I’ll give the Redskins some credit. I think hanging on to Rod Gardner, for now, might be smart. There’s interest in him from a few teams, and any club that loses a starting receiver at the start of camp might want to place a call to Joe Gibbs.

[BigSKINBauer]

I think that all the media take a certain spin on the team. Either they will be good and this is the year, or we are set up to give denver the number 3 draft pick next year. I think it is in the middle, not that we can't be horrible or great next year with 4 wins or 12 wins, our team has problems but they are not destroying. The loss of morton is nothing and i hope he does well but i won't feel bad for releasing him even if he pulls off 2 touchdowns returning next year. Pierce, i won't miss his physical attributes(we got mccune), i will miss his brain that set up the line and got everyone ready. Smoot is what i am most worried about, i liked smoot more than bailey when they were both here, not because smoot was better, it was just his attitude and love for the team. He will be replaced by arris and harris will do fine. Our backfield isn't destroyed as some reports make it seem, we have springs, taylor, bowen, and harris/rodgers. that is a damn good backfield, and few teams have better.

Offensively, i know we got better, we got 2 out of the top 3 top yards per average recievers with over 40 catches. That is not an accident, we got the speed needed to help the passing game and even if we complete less we will have larger completions w/o coles. This will help portis in running and cooley in catching the shorter passes. It is looking good.

Our season lays in the hands of our QB and if he fails this year we will fail, things looked up toward the end of the season(Ramsey was doing well in the last 5 games he had 3 games w/ over a 100 passer rating, high 139). I really don't know how he will do. If it is good i know anything can happen, everything else on our team is above average

[MTK]

So Gibbs has disgust and distain for Ramsey?

Meanwhile he's repeatedly said, since very early in the offseason, that Patrick is his starter.

Interesting.

I guess Gibbs is just blowing smoke up our asses.

Like Schneed10 said, Gibbs has always had 2 starting quality QBs on his rosters, Gibbs hasn't changed his tune at all in that regard. So why are people spinning it as he somehow hates Ramsey?

Ridiculous.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Very true. Brunell was SUPPOSED to be the second quality quarterback. I'd be afraid to have had Hasselbeck leading us if a starter was injured.

[Daseal]

So Gibbs has disgust and distain for Ramsey?

Meanwhile he's repeatedly said, since very early in the offseason, that Patrick is his starter.

Interesting.

I guess Gibbs is just blowing smoke up our asses.

Like Schneed10 said, Gibbs has always had 2 starting quality QBs on his rosters, Gibbs hasn't changed his tune at all in that regard. So why are people spinning it as he somehow hates Ramsey?

Ridiculous.

I think Gibbs' true feelings about Ramsey will come out if he struggles like Brunell. Does he get the 8 week grace period or a two week one. Hopefully we won't find out either way!

Smoot has been a quality CB his entire career. Imagine that, putting lots of pressure on the QB and forcing them to make bad throws made Smoot look better. That's the same for every defense. However, he was making big plays when he didn't have any time. Also, could it be, that Smoot simply got better skill wise? He's still fairly young in the league and learning. Smoot was a great Redskin and because the Redskins didn't want to give him near the money MN would, I can understand him leaving. Same with Pierce - when you go that many years with damn near league minimum I understand going for more money. It's not like they had huge contracts they wanted to redo. Before I hear that crap that the Redskins offer was almost the same as MNs. MNs was front loaded to where he'd actually see some of the salary, along with a slightly higher SB than the skins offered. Meaning he sees a lot more of that.

Why do we bash players that we consistantly stick up for when they leave, especially when they just leave on normal terms. It's the new NFL. This isn't like Gibbs first era where you can stockpile talent and have them wait. Or give players what they want. It's the salary cap -- and we all know the game wouldn't be as exciting without it.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I think Gibbs' true feelings about Ramsey will come out if he struggles like Brunell. Does he get the 8 week grace period or a two week one. Hopefully we won't find out either way!

I can't see Gibbs keeping Ramsey on that short of a leash. 2 weeks isn't a fair shot for anyone.

He has always been very loyal to his starting QB, almost to a fault... as we saw last year.

Ramsey will get a very fair shot, I have no doubt.

If Gibbs really didn't like Ramsey, why would he keep him around and make him the starter? If anyone can make sense of that please let me know.

He could have easily said there will be an open competition for the job in camp to let Brunell back into the running. But he didn't, so what does that say for how he feels about Ramsey? It tells me he thinks he's the best guy for the job right now.

The Campbell pick shows me Gibbs has one eye on the future. There's no guarantee we'll be able to fit Ramsey under our cap especially if he has a big year and wants a big payday. Or what if he simply wants to play elsewhere no matter what the team offers him?

I guess it's just easier to take the view that Gibbs somehow hates Ramsey and just has it in for him, so that's why he took Campbell. But if you step back and look at the big picture, I think it's easy to see that Gibbs is following the same MO he always has, he likes quality depth at QB. Simple as that.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Smoot has been a quality CB his entire career. Imagine that, putting lots of pressure on the QB and forcing them to make bad throws made Smoot look better. That's the same for every defense. However, he was making big plays when he didn't have any time. Also, could it be, that Smoot simply got better skill wise? He's still fairly young in the league and learning. Smoot was a great Redskin and because the Redskins didn't want to give him near the money MN would, I can understand him leaving. Same with Pierce - when you go that many years with damn near league minimum I understand going for more money. It's not like they had huge contracts they wanted to redo. Before I hear that crap that the Redskins offer was almost the same as MNs. MNs was front loaded to where he'd actually see some of the salary, along with a slightly higher SB than the skins offered. Meaning he sees a lot more of that.

Why do we bash players that we consistantly stick up for when they leave, especially when they just leave on normal terms. It's the new NFL. This isn't like Gibbs first era where you can stockpile talent and have them wait. Or give players what they want. It's the salary cap -- and we all know the game wouldn't be as exciting without it.

I am with you when you say Smoot was good and he had a lot of skill. I don't think Gregg Williams was the only reason Smoot was so good last year. If anything, Smoot and Springs allowed Williams to run the defense he wanted to. Without good corners, Williams can't operate his defense the way he wants. He is a great mind, but he does need some tools to work with, and Smoot & Springs were the most important tools in his toolbox last year.

That said, I honestly don't see much of a dropoff from Smoot to Walt Harris. I've been through this argument before, but just to reiterate, Walt was a former first round pick. He was a starter for many years. The only reason he wasn't a starter recently was because he busted up his knee and we got him for cheap. Now his knee is totally healthy as he proved last year, and he is quite capable of covering some top receivers. I don't think the drop from Smoot to Harris is that significant.

I am concerned about Rogers though, because you need more than two good CBs. While I'm totally confident in Springs and Harris, I'd feel better if Rogers were healthy enough to get a full training camp under his belt so he can fit into the nickel role. I like Garnell Wilds, he did nicely against Randy Moss last year. But honestly, it's a leap of faith to assume he can handle a nickel role on a consistent basis. Of course, Antonio Pierce made that leap last year, so I won't rule anything out. But I'd just feel better with Rogers in better health.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I am with you when you say Smoot was good and he had a lot of skill. I don't think Gregg Williams was the only reason Smoot was so good last year. If anything, Smoot and Springs allowed Williams to run the defense he wanted to. Without good corners, Williams can't operate his defense the way he wants. He is a great mind, but he does need some tools to work with, and Smoot & Springs were the most important tools in his toolbox last year.

That said, I honestly don't see much of a dropoff from Smoot to Walt Harris. I've been through this argument before, but just to reiterate, Walt was a former first round pick. He was a starter for many years. The only reason he wasn't a starter recently was because he busted up his knee and we got him for cheap. Now his knee is totally healthy as he proved last year, and he is quite capable of covering some top receivers. I don't think the drop from Smoot to Harris is that significant.

I am concerned about Rogers though, because you need more than two good CBs. While I'm totally confident in Springs and Harris, I'd feel better if Rogers were healthy enough to get a full training camp under his belt so he can fit into the nickel role. I like Garnell Wilds, he did nicely against Randy Moss last year. But honestly, it's a leap of faith to assume he can handle a nickel role on a consistent basis. Of course, Antonio Pierce made that leap last year, so I won't rule anything out. But I'd just feel better with Rogers in better health.

Nice post, as usual.

Illdefined, as far as putting obstacles in front of Ramsey. It's possible that he felt he was doing Ramsey a favor by not throwing him out there to the wolves while Gibbs got adjusted to the new NFL. I think maybe he felt he'd rather have Brunell out there on the field early on if for no other reason than Brunell would have a better handle on things going on on the field.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

Nice post, as usual.

Illdefined, as far as putting obstacles in front of Ramsey. It's possible that he felt he was doing Ramsey a favor by not throwing him out there to the wolves while Gibbs got adjusted to the new NFL. I think maybe he felt he'd rather have Brunell out there on the field early on if for no other reason than Brunell would have a better handle on things going on on the field.

Good point. And call me crazy, but I think good old Joe meant what he said last year going into training camp; the QB position was an open competition. Both Ramsey and Brunell looked brutal in the preseason last year, but Brunell looked a little less brutal, so he played.

Ramsey was able to learn the offense in practice while Brunell stunk up the joint last year, and Ramsey came in and showed he was solid.

I think that's all Gibbs needed to see. So Matty's right, when he says Ramsey is the starter, he means it, because he saw him perform admirably in his starts last year (take out the relief performance against the Giants, and Ramsey would have had a 85 QB rating). Campbell was picked for developmental purposes only; his selection was not an indictment of Ramsey's abilities. Old Joe is just getting himself a solid backup because he knows he needs to clear Brunell's bloated salary off the books as soon as it's beneficial under the cap regulations.

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Campbell was picked for developmental purposes only; his selection was not an indictment of Ramsey's abilities. Old Joe is just getting himself a solid backup because he knows he needs to clear Brunell's bloated salary off the books as soon as it's beneficial under the cap regulations.

I hope that take is right; Hasslebeck seemed like a solid backup though and not taking the chance to shore up a depeleted defense for a future backup QB doesn't seem very pragmatic. I'm sure Ramsey and maybe even coach Williams was a bit surprised.

[illdefined]

Hindsight just hasn't been kind to my deep worship of Joe Gibbs. To me, the biggest factor in our weak season last year was his apparent worship of Mark Brunell. What does Gibbs think he sees, and why does he always put obstacles in front of Ramsey?

[MTK]

What obstacles?

Ramsey is the unquestioned starter going into camp.

What more needs to be said?