The Anti-Media Media

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by joecrisp

If they're not sportswriters, they don't belong in the pressbox. That's why it's called the "PRESS" box.

This is particularly irking to me, as I worked my butt off for three years trying to establish myself as a "fan reporter"-- spending my own hard-earned cash and that of TheWarpath faithful, using vacation time away from my wife that could certainly have been spent on more relaxing endeavors, pulling all-nighters trying to get my camp reports published in a timely manner, not to mention the inordinate amount of butt-kissing required to get any assistance from the Redskins media relations staff, and the tremendous amount of composure and self-control required to avoid ruffling the feathers of the folks who make their living as reporters.

How was I rewarded? I was told I was no longer welcome as a fan reporter-- by none other than the very same folks who are now foisting these obnoxious, anti-media, pseudo-reporter fans upon the professional media members.

I was lucky enough to get to spend a day in the pressbox for the Redskins-Ravens scrimmage back in August-- only because I was a reporter for The Daily Progress-- but I conducted myself as professionally as I could, and tried to be as unobtrusive as possible to those who were there trying to earn a living. That's how I always behaved around Redskins Park, because that's how I would want a visitor to behave in my workplace.

How would you like it if you had people running around in your office, jumping up and down, yelling and shouting-- when you're trying to focus and get work done on deadline? Most of us would probably at some point want to grab them and toss them headlong out the nearest window. I'd imagine that's how the professional media members in that pressbox felt when they were confronted with such unwelcome behavior.

I imagine if I had known that all the Redskins wanted out of a "fan reporter" was someone who could be as obnoxious and inconsiderate as possible around the professional reporters, I could have played that role quite naturally, and TheWarpath.net would've become the Redskins' official message board long ago.

Shame on me for trying to do the right thing.

Forgive me, Joe. I don't mean to step on your toes and I understand your aspirations for becoming a journalist covering the Redskins. And you're right, traditionally the press box is there for journalists to get their work done.

All I'm saying is that Dan Snyder is entirely within his rights to allocate press box space in his stadium to whoever he chooses. First off, he doesn't owe the press anything, it's his press box, he can put 25 chimpanzees up there if he wants. I can't blame him for giving press box space to those guys, after a lot of the inaccuaracies the Post has published in recent years. And I also thought that taking the ticket spat public by reporting on it was a pretty bush-league move by the Post.

I certainly do not wish for the biased opinions of the ExtremeSkins staff to replace objective reporting by any means. For the most part, I think the Post has been relatively objective save for the ticket spat. And I still enjoy Wilbon and Kornheiser more than any biased column that ExtremeSkins could ever write. There will always be a place for objective journalism. But I'm on Snyder's side here, if he wants to provide fans with access to a column that actually exhibits the same enthusiasm that it's readers have for the team, then I applaud that. It's different, and it sure is ruffling some feathers amongst the press, but fans love it. And that's just smart business.

There will always be a demand for the objective reporting that you personally strive to bring to us, I think it will always be the preferred source of information for Redskins fans (including me). But I see no reason why enthusiasts can't be a part of the picture as well. There's room for both in my mind.

[EternalEnigma21]

But that's just it. There isn't always room for both. Just like joe losing his credentials and the only fan site allowed into training camp with media passes being extremeskins. The biggest thing to remember when you look at this, thought, is that all of the moderators/paid posters... whatever that are in the pressbox, are no longer objectable fans. They're employees.

[joecrisp]

Originally Posted by canthetuna

The biggest thing to remember when you look at this, thought, is that all of the moderators/paid posters... whatever that are in the pressbox, are no longer objectable fans. They're employees.

Exactly. As paid (or otherwise compensated) representatives of the team and presumably its fans, they should conduct themselves in a professional manner when they're in a professional setting. The pressbox is a professional environment where those present are expected to conduct themselves according to certain protocols so that everyone can observe the game free of the distractions associated with being in the general seating area among the fans.

If the fans the Redskins are inserting into that professional environment are unable to contain their enthusiasm for the game, perhaps they belong in the ample seating areas provided for fans to express themselves.

If Dan Snyder is so fond of these fellows, maybe he should invite them to sit with him in the owner's box.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Cheering in the press box, regardless of your affiliation, is a little tacky and doesn't seem very professional in my book.

But that's just my opinion.

Couldn’t agree more. Journalism requires objectivity and a fan covering his own team reeks of conflict of interest. Then again you have people like Pastabelly who have no objectivity whatsoever when it comes to the Skins.

[joecrisp]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Forgive me, Joe. I don't mean to step on your toes and I understand your aspirations for becoming a journalist covering the Redskins. And you're right, traditionally the press box is there for journalists to get their work done.

All I'm saying is that Dan Snyder is entirely within his rights to allocate press box space in his stadium to whoever he chooses. First off, he doesn't owe the press anything, it's his press box, he can put 25 chimpanzees up there if he wants. I can't blame him for giving press box space to those guys, after a lot of the inaccuaracies the Post has published in recent years. And I also thought that taking the ticket spat public by reporting on it was a pretty bush-league move by the Post.

I certainly do not wish for the biased opinions of the ExtremeSkins staff to replace objective reporting by any means. For the most part, I think the Post has been relatively objective save for the ticket spat. And I still enjoy Wilbon and Kornheiser more than any biased column that ExtremeSkins could ever write. There will always be a place for objective journalism. But I'm on Snyder's side here, if he wants to provide fans with access to a column that actually exhibits the same enthusiasm that it's readers have for the team, then I applaud that. It's different, and it sure is ruffling some feathers amongst the press, but fans love it. And that's just smart business.

There will always be a demand for the objective reporting that you personally strive to bring to us, I think it will always be the preferred source of information for Redskins fans (including me). But I see no reason why enthusiasts can't be a part of the picture as well. There's room for both in my mind.

No offense taken, Schneed10, I just felt that your argument struck at the core problem: these guys AREN'T journalists, they have no aspiration to be journalists, and apparently, they share the Redskins' dislike and general lack of respect for journalists. So why on earth are they in the pressbox? It makes no sense. There's no reason for them to be there.

You want to put them in the owner's box, or some other appropriate place for VIPs? Fine. Be Dan Snyder's guest. But they don't need to be in the press box to write the stuff they write-- which hardly qualifies as journalism. Well-crafted propaganda, yes (in the case of Mr. Steven, at least). But certainly not journalism, which requires an objective eye, and an allegiance only to the truth.

The reason the real journalists are taking umbrage to the presence of these unabashed fans and media-haters is not that they feel they are somehow above the fans or the general public. The reason they are so upset is that it's a clear and deliberate "F-You" from Snyder and Swanson to the media. By putting the fans in the pressbox, the Redskins are basically saying, "we're going to violate the sanctity of your institution, and make it as difficult for you to do your job as possible."

Apparently, that's been the modus operandi of Snyder's regime since the beginning anyway, so I guess it should come as no surprise. Why then, do Snyder and the Snyderettes act so shocked and surprised and victimized when the media hangs the Redskins' dirty laundry out in the sun for all to see?

Why? Because that's how propaganda works.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by joecrisp

Exactly. As paid (or otherwise compensated) representatives of the team and presumably its fans, they should conduct themselves in a professional manner when they're in a professional setting. The pressbox is a professional environment where those present are expected to conduct themselves according to certain protocols so that everyone can observe the game free of the distractions associated with being in the general seating area among the fans.

If the fans the Redskins are inserting into that professional environment are unable to contain their enthusiasm for the game, perhaps they belong in the ample seating areas provided for fans to express themselves.

If Dan Snyder is so fond of these fellows, maybe he should invite them to sit with him in the owner's box.

Here's the thing though, they're not employees of the team. They're a separate business entity which is now owned by the team. The guys at ExtremeSkins don't toe the company line because they were bought out; they were bought out because they've been toeing the company line all along, and now the Redskins are taking advantage of it as a way to reach out to fans who want the enthusiastic approach. I don't think they are representatives of the team.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by saden1

Couldn’t agree more. Journalism requires objectivity and a fan covering his own team reeks of conflict of interest. Then again you have people like Pastabelly who have no objectivity whatsoever when it comes to the Skins.

The entire point is that it's not objective. Tell me when the Redskins have ever tried to pass ExtremeSkins off as a source of objective information???

The Redskins promote it on Redskins.com as an unprecedented distribution channel for access to the team, that's it. I can't understand why people are insisting that ExtremeSkins be held to journalistic standards. Just because Snyder places them in the press box, that doesn't mean he thinks they're journalists.

[Gmanc711]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

The entire point is that it's not objective. Tell me when the Redskins have ever tried to pass ExtremeSkins off as a source of objective information???

The Redskins promote it on Redskins.com as an unprecedented distribution channel for access to the team, that's it. I can't understand why people are insisting that ExtremeSkins be held to journalistic standards. Just because Snyder places them in the press box, that doesn't mean he thinks they're journalists.

No one is saying they our journalists. But they are going into a professional setting and acting like asses. I'm sure at your work, with whatever you do, if I'm hired as a maintence guy or somthing and put in your office for the day and am jumping up and down screaming, you'd be pissed off too. They are getting paid to go into a professional setting, and acting like jackasses. Bottom line.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by joecrisp

No offense taken, Schneed10, I just felt that your argument struck at the core problem: these guys AREN'T journalists, they have no aspiration to be journalists, and apparently, they share the Redskins' dislike and general lack of respect for journalists. So why on earth are they in the pressbox? It makes no sense. There's no reason for them to be there.

You want to put them in the owner's box, or some other appropriate place for VIPs? Fine. Be Dan Snyder's guest. But they don't need to be in the press box to write the stuff they write-- which hardly qualifies as journalism. Well-crafted propaganda, yes (in the case of Stevens, at least). But certainly not journalism, which requires an objective eye, and an allegiance only to the truth.

The reason the real journalists are taking umbrage to the presence of these unabashed fans and media-haters is not that they feel they are somehow above the fans or the general public. The reason they are so upset is that it's a clear and deliberate "F-You" from Snyder and Swanson to the media. By putting the fans in the pressbox, the Redskins are basically saying, "we're going to violate the sanctity of your institution, and make it as difficult for you to do your job as possible."

Apparently, that's been the modus operandi of Snyder's regime since the beginning anyway, so I guess it should come as no surprise. Why then, do Snyder and the Snyderettes act so shocked and surprised and victimized when the media hangs the Redskins' dirty laundry out in the sun for all to see?

Why? Because that's how propaganda works.

Which brings me to my third point. I know you're a journalist Joe, so I can understand why this would be an issue for you. But by and large, nobody cares if a little less press box space is available to real journalists. I totally agree with you that Dan Snyder is holding up his middle finger to the press on this move. He's giving it to them right in the ass. Is it a dick move? Sure. But the average fan doesn't care.

It's not like he's sticking his middle finger up to all journalists. Never did Dan Snyder say he had a problem with all journalism. He said, in his ExtremeSkins chat, that he has a problem with inaccuracies in the media. And he's got a point. That doesn't mean all of the press was inaccurate though.

We've had many discussions on this site which highlighted our feelings that Dan Snyder has gotten a bad rap as an owner, more so that he deserves. He has made some solid football moves lately which have gone unrecognized because of SOME of the media's inability to let go of their initial impression of him; that he is a meddling owner who deserves to fail. I assert that THOSE members of the media were not doing their homework and not giving him credit where credit was due. To those members of the media I think they deserve Dan Snyder's F YOU, and I join him. I say F YOU to Pastabelly for his refusal to give any credit free of underhanded digs, I say F YOU to the Post for taking the ticket spat public in the papers, and I say F YOU to any journalist who still writes that Dan Snyder is still a meddlesome owner without any supporting evidence other than the actions he took 4 years ago.

In the end, I can see where Snyder is coming from. He has been victimized by a portion of the media. I can see where you are coming from too, because it has robbed some honest, hardworking journalists like yourself of some space in the pressbox. But to that I say don't blame Dan Snyder, blame the journalists who refuse to report objective material. They are the ones that ruined it for you.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

No one is saying they our journalists. But they are going into a professional setting and acting like asses. I'm sure at your work, with whatever you do, if I'm hired as a maintence guy or somthing and put in your office for the day and am jumping up and down screaming, you'd be pissed off too. They are getting paid to go into a professional setting, and acting like jackasses. Bottom line.

So? Why would we care about that? Sure, OK, it's a dick move and unprofessional. So what?

Could it be that some people here at the Warpath are a wee bit jealous of the guys at ExtremeSkins? Is that why we're upset that they disturbed the journalists while they were writing?

I don't get the beef. I don't see why anyone here would care if someone is in the press box yelling and disturbing anybody.

[joecrisp]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Here's the thing though, they're not employees of the team. They're a separate business entity which is now owned by the team. The guys at ExtremeSkins don't toe the company line because they were bought out; they were bought out because they've been toeing the company line all along, and now the Redskins are taking advantage of it as a way to reach out to fans who want the enthusiastic approach. I don't think they are representatives of the team.

They're representatives of the Official Message Board **OF** the Washington Redskins. That word "OF" is key here (thus the obnoxious little asterisks). That word implies ownership and possession. If they represent a smaller entity that belongs to a larger entity, do they not represent the larger entity as well? For example, if I worked for ESPN (one can dream, can't he?), would I not also be an employee-- and therefore a representative-- of Walt Disney?

Only in this case, the relationship is much more direct, and judging by the fringe benefits (and whatever other possibly unrevealed compensation) the Extremeskins staff is enjoying, I'd say they have quite a vested stake in their positive representation of the team. They've said it themselves: they'd be foolish to bite the hand that feeds them.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by joecrisp

They're representatives of the Official Message Board **OF** the Washington Redskins. That word "OF" is key here (thus the obnoxious little asterisks). That word implies ownership and possession. If they represent a smaller entity that belongs to a larger entity, do they not represent the larger entity as well? For example, if I worked for ESPN (one can dream, can't he?), would I not also be an employee-- and therefore a representative-- of Walt Disney?

Only in this case, the relationship is much more direct, and judging by the fringe benefits (and whatever other possibly unrevealed compensation) the Extremeskins staff is enjoying, I'd say they have quite a vested stake in their positive representation of the team. They've said it themselves: they'd be foolish to bite the hand that feeds them.

You're right, they would be foolish to bite the hand that feeds them. But they never intended to bite that hand when it wasn't feeding them. They've always been a rah rah bunch; by and large they've always been defenders of the Redskins and the front office. My point is that you can't sell out when you're already on their side.

And besides, they're giving the people what they want.

I still come here for good quality discussions, because an unaffiliated site brings the freedom to be more objective. But I like ExtremeSkins.com too, they play a cool role in giving access to the team, even though I know they're never going to ask Gibbs or Swanson or Snyder any hard-hitting questions.

There's a place for everyone.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

So? Why would we care about that? Sure, OK, it's a dick move and unprofessional. So what?

Stuff like this only adds to fuel to the fire for the media that already has a strong dislike for Snyder, and in turn it reflects negatively on the fans. Like it or not, these guys represent our fan base and they certainly aren't doing the fan sites any favors with their negative publicity.

Could it be that some people here at the Warpath are a wee bit jealous of the guys at ExtremeSkins? Is that why we're upset that they disturbed the journalists while they were writing?

Jealous? Nah. Ticked off that we got the rug pulled out from under us... definitely.

Snyder takes a lot of crap in the press without a doubt, some deserved and some not, but he would have been better served by taking the high road rather than stooping down to the media's often immature and uninformed level.

[BigSKINBauer]

Originally Posted by joecrisp

Only in this case, the relationship is much more direct, and judging by the fringe benefits (and whatever other possibly unrevealed compensation) the Extremeskins staff is enjoying, I'd say they have quite a vested stake in their positive representation of the team. They've said it themselves: they'd be foolish to bite the hand that feeds them.

and that is why their articles are bullshit and reflect the opinions only of the fans that are happy with every move the team makes. I am still somewhat pissed about the aritcle that divided the fans up into two groups in the lavar issue and not only stating a differense in opinion but telling the fans what was the 100% right opinion and what was the "the world is flat" dumbass opinion. The REDSKINS shouldn't be allowing articles that divide the fan base on redskins.com
---------------
and speaking of danny boy deserving some respect. ESPN TEN MORE NFL TRUTHS


"5. Redskins owner Daniel Snyder deserves credit for allowing Joe Gibbs to bench LaVar Arrington.

You hear all the horror stories about Snyder's being a meddlesome owner who has ruined the Redskins. You never hear the good stuff.

How many NFL owners would let a guy they gave an eight-year, $80 million contract rot on the bench? Even if the guy was a stiff, most owners would demand that a player in Arrington's situation play simply because of the dollars involved.

Arrington, despite a 2004 knee injury, isn't a stiff. He can still do the things that made him a three-time Pro Bowler. Arrington just isn't "assignment sound" enough for Joe Gibbs and defensive coordinator Gregg Williams. Gibbs and Williams adopted the defensive approach that has been the mainstay of Bill Belichick's New England defenses. Belichick will sacrifice athleticism at linebacker for players who will always fill the right gap."

[Schneed10]

I guess to sum up my thoughts, I like the Post for it's coverage of the team when it's reporting objectively. I like the Warpath because it has, in my opinion, the smartest, most civilized, and well-educated fans, which makes for very stimulating debate and discussion. (and I LOVE the inside info you're able to get us, Joe) I like ExtremeSkins.com because when I read the column they post on Redskins.com, it always makes me feel warm and fuzzy about the Skins, even if it's biased.

Some sources provide information, some sources allow for fruitful discussion, and some sources just plain make me feel good. I like them all.

But I'm here at the Warpath more often than all of them.