Todd Collins Re-Ups

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I think this notion that learning a new system is no big deal really needs to be put to bed. It has nothing to do with the West Coast Offense, we'd be in this predicament no matter what kind of system we use. New coaches take some time for their offense to get going.

Here's a sample of the recent, extremely successful West Coast Offense coaches, and how they did in their first season with their teams:

Jon Gruden - 1998 Raiders - ranked 18th in offense
Jon Gruden - 2002 Buccaneers - 24th (won the SB on great defense)
Andy Reid - 1999 Eagles - 30th
Mike Holmgren - 1992 Packers - 15th
Mike Holmgren - 1999 Seahawks - 23rd
Steve Mariucci - 1997 49ers - 12th
Steve Mariucci - 2003 Lions - 32nd
Mike Shanahan - 1988 Raiders - 19th
Mike Shanahan - 1995 Broncos - 3rd
And the Godfather himself, Bill Walsh - 1979 49ers - 6th

So when I read over that list of coaches who eventually became very successful, there were exactly three seasons among them where the offense finished in the top half of the league. And in two of those seasons, you had superstar hall-of-fame quarterbacks running the show in John Elway (Shanahan's 95 Broncos) and Steve Young (Mariucci's 97 49ers). Jason Campbell, as much as I like him, just isn't quite at that level, is he. The only guy who didn't have a superstar QB, and still got the offense clicking in year 1, was the inventor of the WCO himself, Bill Walsh.

I just chose to look at WCO coaches because that's where Zorn comes from. But if you looked at any other coach, you'd probably find similar results. When a new system takes over, it takes time for it to achieve success. Same thing happened with Gibbs in 1981 and in 2004.

Anyone expecting Zorn to orchestrate a smooth passing game this year is either ignoring history or expecting him to be the next Bill Walsh.

Surely there have to be numerous examples of 1st year coordinators having great or good success? Just last year J. Garrett stepped in & did pretty well. I don't know the extent of the changes they made, but he wasn't on their staff the year before.

That's just the quickest that comes to mind. Also, Brees & Payton in NO in 06.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

Surely there have to be numerous examples of 1st year coordinators having great or good success? Just last year J. Garrett stepped in & did pretty well. I don't know the extent of the changes they made, but he wasn't on their staff the year before.

That's just the quickest that comes to mind. Also, Brees & Payton in NO in 06.

Payton is a good example of someone who came in and lit it up on day one.

Others that come to mind are Jason Garrett and Norv Turner this year, though it should be noted that they inherited some pretty amazing talent.

It's certainly possible, and I'm obviously hoping and praying big time that it happens for us.

But for every Sean Payton there are countless others who didn't do well. I mean, keep in mind that I limited my list to coaches who are now, years later, considered extremely successful. I didn't bother even mentioning the Marty Morningwhegs or Cam Camerons of the world, like whom Zorn could very possibly end up.

The most successful coaches in the game typically take time to get their team up and running at a high level. Be hopeful, but set realistic expectations. History should be your guide.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

Surely there have to be numerous examples of 1st year coordinators having great or good success? Just last year J. Garrett stepped in & did pretty well. I don't know the extent of the changes they made, but he wasn't on their staff the year before.

That's just the quickest that comes to mind. Also, Brees & Payton in NO in 06.

Actualy garrett was their QB coach for several seasons.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I think this notion that learning a new system is no big deal really needs to be put to bed. It has nothing to do with the West Coast Offense, we'd be in this predicament no matter what kind of system we use. New coaches take some time for their offense to get going.

Here's a sample of the recent, extremely successful West Coast Offense coaches, and how they did in their first season with their teams:

Jon Gruden - 1998 Raiders - ranked 18th in offense
Jon Gruden - 2002 Buccaneers - 24th (won the SB on great defense)
Andy Reid - 1999 Eagles - 30th
Mike Holmgren - 1992 Packers - 15th
Mike Holmgren - 1999 Seahawks - 23rd
Steve Mariucci - 1997 49ers - 12th
Steve Mariucci - 2003 Lions - 32nd
Mike Shanahan - 1988 Raiders - 19th
Mike Shanahan - 1995 Broncos - 3rd
And the Godfather himself, Bill Walsh - 1979 49ers - 6th

So when I read over that list of coaches who eventually became very successful, there were exactly three seasons among them where the offense finished in the top half of the league. And in two of those seasons, you had superstar hall-of-fame quarterbacks running the show in John Elway (Shanahan's 95 Broncos) and Steve Young (Mariucci's 97 49ers). Jason Campbell, as much as I like him, just isn't quite at that level, is he. The only guy who didn't have a superstar QB, and still got the offense clicking in year 1, was the inventor of the WCO himself, Bill Walsh.

I just chose to look at WCO coaches because that's where Zorn comes from. But if you looked at any other coach, you'd probably find similar results. When a new system takes over, it takes time for it to achieve success. Same thing happened with Gibbs in 1981 and in 2004.

Anyone expecting Zorn to orchestrate a smooth passing game this year is either ignoring history or expecting him to be the next Bill Walsh.

As much as I don't want to agree, I do. Steve Young always loves to talk about how it takes 2 full seasons for an offense/QB to make a transition to West Coast ball. I think because we have good offensive talent in place we can have some effectiveness this year. By that I mean I don't think we'll be bad. Middle of the road, hopefully slightly better. Our tough as nails division won't help. Fortunately we've got a great D to help with said transition.

[MTK]

Zorn seems commited to making this as smooth of a transition as possible. I'm not saying there won't be any bumps in the road, but he at least seems to have the right approach in mind. He's not going to overwhelm the QBs, that's for sure.

[onlydarksets]

If anyone is interested in reading a detailed overview of the WCO, check this out:
http://www.centuryinter.net/midway/c...tcoast/wco.pdf

This is a playbook, so it's not a 5-minutes read.

[hesscl34]

Im really happy about this! If JC stinks it up we know we have somoene that's been around, knows our guys, and can get the job done!

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by hesscl34

Im really happy about this! If JC stinks it up we know we have somoene that's been around, knows our guys, and can get the job done!

I doubt that JC will stink it up. All we need is for him to get a QB rating of about 80 and we'll be fine. Though I predict he'll be in the 82-85 range. What I'm worried about is what happens if Campbell gets hurt again.

[hesscl34]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

I doubt that JC will stink it up. All we need is for him to get a QB rating of about 80 and we'll be fine. Though I predict he'll be in the 82-85 range. What I'm worried about is what happens if Campbell gets hurt again.

You doubt? How many ITs did he throw last year? ... How many fumbles? .. How many games did we lose in the last few minutes while on an Offensive drive? I really wonder sometimes why some of you think he's our next hero.

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by hesscl34

You doubt? How many ITs did he throw last year? ... How many fumbles? .. How many games did we lose in the last few minutes while on an Offensive drive? I really wonder sometimes why some of you think he's our next hero.

..........no u!

[hesscl34]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

..........no u!

WHAT??

[MTK]

alright let's keep things civil here and stay on topic

[hesscl34]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

alright let's keep things civil here and stay on topic

... I'm confused.. I didn't understand his reply to my post. So I said "what?"... how is that not being civil or off topic?

[skinsnut]

Ya know...this signing is a pretty big deal....considering both of our backup QB's were the only ones that led the Skins to the playoffs in this millenium.

I am very pleased that we have a guy that can easily come in for 3 or 4 games and win with heavy pressure...brunell took us on a playoff run too...

And though we dont think these guys are fantastic and some want Brunell gone...the truth is, these guys are rock solid backups...the only reason not to re-sign Brunell is because we may want to develop young talent...which I completely agree with.

Why oh why would we replace him with a Dilfer....I dont get that.
Let's draft a QB late or resign Brunell too

[SmootSmack]

(from JLC: The Todd Collins Contract - Redskins Insider)

According to sources, here's the breakdown on the deal TC just signed.

It is indeed 3 years, worth a max of $9 million, with a $3 million signing bonus (but there's a cap-saving quirk as well).

In essence, he'll get $4 million guaranteed - the $3 million signing bonus, a $100,000 workout bonus due this spring, and his $900,000 salary for 2008 (assuming he does not get hurt in the offseason somehow).

In 2009 he has another $100,000 workout bonus and a base of $1.9 million

In 2010 he has another $100,000 workout bonus and a base of $2.9 miullion (again, base salaries in the NFL are not guaranteed).

However, instead of his 2008 cap hit being $2 million ($1 million proration of the signing bonus + $100,000 bonus + salary), it's actually $1.5. How you might ask?

Sources said the deal is actually for six years, but the final three years are set up as such so they will void automatically (much like Mark Brunell's last deal voided after 2007). But for cap purposes the $3 million signing bonus is spread over 6 years rather than 3 - hence $1.5 million cap hit rather than $2 million.

The Redskins made re-signing Collins their chief priority, with owner Daniel Snyder involved and negotiations going well past 2 am and picking up again in the morning, according to sources. The Skins spent considerable time trying to get this done, including Coach Jim Zorn flying to Quincy, Mass. yesterday.